Muslim and Non Muslim

Society Religion & Philosophy
41

aapka question tha na usko sarcastically answer kar rha tha :smiley: choray es bat ko.

42

Read his post again....then read my post.

43

No the covering thing was an example, I said "if" you said that, that would be wrong.

But finding a pious Christian/Jew woman is a separate issue, all I am saying is that:

  1. One cannot say that Muslim men cannot marry Christian/Jewish women (as you said earlier), as that goes contrary to what Quran says. Now you may have an issue with that concept but you will have to take that up with God and not me.

  2. One cannot say that there are no pious/virtuous women of the scripture anymore, since there is no way for anyone to know that except God. Generalization is a no no as Muslims are finding out quite rudely.

44

When did I mention that the time was over? Modern history has continued to provide cases of population imbalance.

Most noticeable in the aftermath of World War 1 and World war 2. For example, in the German state of Bavaria, a survey in 1946 found that there were almost two women aged 21-23 for every man of the same age group. The simultaneous 7-12% rise in out-of-wedlock births that year is attributed to this. If German culture had been more accepting of polygamy, it is likely that this would have been avoided.

Even today, in the Northern Marianas Island, there are only 0.77 men per woman. If every man was monogamous and faithful, then nearly a quarter of the women on the islands would either have to live as spinsters or emigrate in search of a life partner.

Mauritania and Bangladesh are Muslim countries where there are 0.9 men per 1 woman aged between 15 and 30. Again, without polygamy and infidelity, this would leave 10% of the women unable to find a life partner within the country.

So, as you can now see, polygamy isn't advantageous only in a certain, past, era. There continue to be times that arise when its presence in a society would avoid illicit behaviour.

45

Well said!

polygamy by itself is benign phenomenon. Even the staunch women rights advocates accept that Western societies are not immune from one man having multiple women "at the same time", but it is a hush hush thing.

And I do not think polygamy is a major issue in even Muslim countries such as Pakistan.

Even as a young male from upper class, it is hard to get 1 woman let alone 2 , 3 or 4.

Had Pakistan been a society where people spoke truth, and they were honest and humble, and tolerant towards other faiths and practices, I do not think anyone would pick the issue of polygamy to club our country.

At the moment Polygamy gets mentioned as "just another example" of a depraved society that has lost its moral values such as:

--- Pakistanis spoke truth, and
----they were honest and
-----humble, and
-----tolerant towards other faiths and practices,

46

Who uses polygamy to bash Paksitan?

47

i am against a muslim man marrying a christian woman not to go against the Quran, only because the way they are practiced go against the requirements set by Quran and ahadith in which you can go through such a marriage.

i recently read somewhere about a marriage of the sort where the woman had made it explicit to her husband that the children will grow up with her religion, but they can know good things about Islam too.

i am not generalizing ... because if you do look at all such marriages, you will find that hardly any fulfills all the requirements.

and then we will also find that the Quran talks about laws that are in the betterment for everybody. it doesnt go about those 0.1% exceptions.

i also read somewhere that muslim men/non-muslim women marriages are makruh in non-muslim countries. and this is based upon the consensus of some ulimahs.

48

Yes maam, but all those are either your opinions, observations, feeling or something someone said or something you read somewhere.

The simple fact of the matter is that Quran allows marriages between muslim man and women of the scripture. We cannot change that because we feel like it does not apply in this day and age. If we do that then we just might as well abandon the whole thing and do as we please.

49

How would have polygamy helped the Germans maintain male population? It would have just meant 2 women for every man. “Out of wedlock” births have always been an issue with or without polygamy. America has the highest # of teen pregnancies, is polygamy a solution for them? No, they just need to grow up and someone needs to teach them some morals and consequences of their actions.

Again, polygamy is not the answer. As a woman, I cannot let my man bring another woman on me. That has never been a solution and no woman should have to accept that. There are countries where men outnumber women, should women start marrying more than one man?

Do you really want to know why this is the case? In most poor countries, men die out sooner than women, and most men work outside of home and thus face more danger. Another BIG reason is emmigration to other countries

So what do you have to say NOW because men population clearly exceeds (not by much) women population around the globe even though life expectancy is higher for women. Check the following quote

So as you can see, you cherrypicking 2 countries does not change the world population. You can come up with other excuses, that’s what people love to do here. By the way, you are a fool to believe that polygamy had any sensible reason other than to legalize adultery. No reason was ever given either by the Quran or Muhammad to allow polygamy. The only reason was to LIMIT the number of wives a man could have. I am just saying…

50

Re: Muslim and Non Muslim

^ Now you're speaking on behalf of all women? :p that's like me saying I speak on behalf of all straight men.... :D

“All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.”

51

Re: Muslim and Non Muslim

^Excuse me?
That's the most illogical comback ever! I told you I am pro-justice. So far women have had to deal with social injustice a lot more than anyone else. (No one is speaking against Black people or I would jump in for them too)

I am a woman if you haven't noticed. You need to first find out what feminists stand for, JUSTICE AND THEIR RIGHTS! If you want to call me a feminist, then I would gladly accept that.

52

hey ... you want to marry a non-practicing christian? by all means go ahead and do it, i'll even attend your wedding in my best clothes :D
and it's not something someone randomly said somewhere. it's a consensus. we all know what that means :)
and going to my point. we as humans, need to handle the Quran with the same justice that the Book itself propagates.
you read one line in the Quran that says you are allowed to marry non-muslim women .. and you go jump right in, and forget all other rules.
you read one line in the Quran that tells women to cover their bosoms, and you call upon all the scholars to make sure there is something more to it. and in case of failure to act, some countries go as far as taking harsh physical measures.

53

Still, who says you have the right to say that ALL women would not accept a second wife for their husband or whatever it is you have a problem with. :yawn:

54

I will send you an invite.

I don't see how doing changing what the quran says is doing the book justice.

Not sure why you keep bringing up the bosom covering thing, all we are talking about is the marriage between a muslim man and women of scripture, which is allowed as per the quote posted earlier in the thread. You can choose to ignore it or disregard it or not agree with it, decide that it does not apply in this day and age or throw any other curve ball at it, that's your choice.

Below is directly from the Quran!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

""This day are (all) good things made lawful for you. The food of those who have received the Scripture is lawful for you, and your food is lawful for them. And so are the virtuous women of the believers and the virtuous women of those who have received the Scripture before you (lawful for you) when you give them their marriage portions and live with them in honor, not in fornication, nor taking them as secret concubines. Whoso denies the faith, his work is vain and he will be among the losers in the Hereafter. ""[Qur'an: Al-Ma'idah (5:5)].

Take care.......

55

Re: Muslim and Non Muslim

the religion of the person one marries is just ONE factor in a successful marriage. There are many other factors.

What is your goal when you get married? a successful married life or a successful so called 'religious life'?

BTW there are no guarantees either way. You have to work at success along with whoever you chose. Being of same religious belief simply makes it one less potential difference to work out.

Statements, whether made by a person or quoted from Quran, such as "you must this....you must not that..." etc simply curtail chances of working real problems out.

When real problems are not worked out, may be in the distant past the women will simply accept their fate and surrender to their fate but you cannot expect that any longer.

Why would you want a wife who is very unhappy inside as an individual and puts on a dutiful smile on the outside to please you? If that happens you are leading the life of a tyrant and your wife that of dishonesty. You may both condition yourself into thinking you are making sacrifices to be a better 'muslim' but that is just fooling yourself and the almighty

56

by putting multiple exclamations, you arent making it sound any more important. it is important even without one.

if you dare to understand what i am saying, we wouldnt be arguing over this.

i dont deny that God permits you to marry into women of previous books. but i am against of how lightly this ruling is taken .. and there are marriages happening left right and center between muslim men/n-muslim women without any consideration to under what circumstances such a marriage can take place.

how do you think a real virtuous christian/jewish woman would feel when her muslim husband is like our kids will be muslim but they can hear nice things about your religion too ... just dont talk abou the trinity ok! i dont think so. it is for the same reason that a practicing muslim woman wont marry a non-muslim man.

as for you saying who are we to judge. have you ever come across or read about a muslim man who went into marriage with a non-muslm woman because he was blown out of his wits about the girls dedicatin to her religion?

it is a rule. you cant just marry any christian/jewish woman. but marriages of the sort happen normally out of love, which was first a physical attraction.

and i keep talking of bosoms as an example to tell you how man is so strict regarding laws about women, in contrast to laws about himself. i havent seen any man being prosecuted for marrying a christian woman who is one only by birth, and not practice.[/size]

57

The Problem in Marrying Jewish and Christian Women

As for marrying Jewish and Christian women, that is, women from among the People of the Book, even this is not permissible in the sight of some noble Companions of the Holy Prophet.

**This happens to be the understanding of Sayyidna 'Abdullah ibn 'Umar [r] When someone asked him about it, he would say: What Allah Almighty says in the Holy Qur’an is clear: ‘Do not marry disbelieving women until they become Muslims’ - and I am not aware of a greater Shirk ( associating others in the Divinity of Allah) than that of a person who openly declares Jesus son of Mary or some other created servant of Allah as her Rabb, Lord or God. (Ahkam al-Qur’in, Jassas)

There was an occasion when Maimun ibn Mihran** asked Sayyidna 'Abdullah ibn 'Umar [r]. ‘We live in a country with a larger population of The People of the Book. Can we marry their women and eat from the animals they slaughter?’ In his reply, Sayyidna 'Abdullah ibn 'Umar simply recited these two verses, firstly the one which prohibits marriage with disbelieving women, and then, this very verse of Surah al-Ma’idah which declares the lawfulness of marriage with women from The People of the Book.**

**Maimun ibn Mihran said: ’ I too read these two verses in the Qur’an and I know them. But, my question is: In view of these two, what religious ruling do I follow? In reply to this question, Sayyidna 'Abdullah ibn 'Umar [r] once again recited these very two verses before him, and said nothing on his own. This has been interpreted by the 'Ulama of the *Ummah *that Sayyidna 'Abdullah ibn 'Umar *******[r] *****was not at peace with himself even in this matter of marriage being lawful with women from among the People of the Book.

**Though, in the view of the majority of the Sahabah and the Tabi’in, marriage with women from among the People of the Book is lawful in itself as in the Qur’an, but marrying them is not free of the many consequential disorders for one’s own person, his children, rather for the whole Muslim Community, which would necessarily emerge as borne by experience. This was the basis on which they too considered marriage with women from among the People of the Book as Makruh (reprehensible).

**Following a narration from Shaqiq ibn Salmah, al-Jassas reports in Ahkam al-Qur’an: When Sayyidna Hudhayfah ibn Yaman *******[r] came to Mada’in, he married a Jewish woman there. When Sayyidna 'Umar[r] *******found out about it, he wrote a letter to him asking him to divorce the woman. Sayyidna Hudhayfah *******[r] *******wrote back: ’ Is she unlawful for me?’ Then, in reply, Sayyidna 'Umar [r] the great Khalifah of Islam, may Allah be pleased with him, it was the best of ages. At that time, any probability, that a Jewish or Christian woman would succeed in hatching some conspiracy against Islam and Muslims by entering into the life of a Muslim as his wife, was simply unimaginable. The only danger that lurked before them during those days was to the moral insulation of their families and homes which could be adversely affected by taking in women of doubtful integrity as wives, or that people start preferring them because of their beauty as a result of which Muslim women would be thrown in deep trouble. But, here is the Faruqian farsightedness which keeps track of dangling disharmonies in Muslim lives and compels people of such stature to divorce the women they had taken as wives. Had they been anywhere closer to the current scenario, just imagine the kind and extent of his reaction! The problem with these people is that of dubious identity. Such people would not mind if their names are registered in the census records as Jewish or Christian, but there are many among them who take Judaism or Christianity to be a nuisance in their personal view of things and ideas. They do not believe in the Torah or the Evangile, nor do they attest to the prophethood of Moses and Jesus, may peace be upon them. In matters of belief, they are totally secular, even atheistic. That they let themselves be called Jews and Christians is no more than some communal, societal or formal convenience.

**It is obvious that women from people of such background are not lawful for a Muslim under any circumstances. And even if they happen to adhere to their religion, still, accommodating them in the midst of a Muslim family amounts to bringing material and spiritual ruination on it. The conspiracies mounted against Islam and Muslims through this inroad during the later period, and which are not uncommon even today, have a tragic lesson of their own. A woman succeeding as a terminator of Muslim national power is no fiction. Such eventuality is within the realm of possibility. How can any sensible person go, irrespective of the considerations of the lawful and unlawful, even close to taking such a step?

Ma’ariful Quran by Mufti Shafi Usmani (RA)
**Classical Islam - Homepage

58

So here we go..............now people will start calling Barak Obama.......Haram & Makrooh.............:(

In addition to questioning whether he was actually born in USA....

59

Re: Muslim and Non Muslim

CP: thank you for the article.

Obama: obama tension mat lo ... tumhari itni pyari biwi hai, bachay hain, kutta hai ... tum kyun afsurda hotay ho? :D

60

Re: Muslim and Non Muslim

here is a simple question.

Is there anyone amongst you who loved a woman but decided against marrying her only because she wasn't muslim?

Is there even one amongst you who loved a man but decided against marrying him only because he is not muslim?

simple. answer yes or no