Musharraf returns

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
181

Re: Musharraf returns

:) ... Well, Musharraf is whatever, or I need tranquilizer or not, I do not care, but I am reasonably sure that next martial law would be last martial law that would last long time (possibly several generations) and would result in many executions.

182

Re: Musharraf returns

Next martial law will result in no more Pakistan on the map of the world.

183

Re: Musharraf returns

Actually, it is other way round. Pakistan would break up not due to military rule (where most benefit), but because of political rule, as people are suffering and country is going down the drain in every way, creating feelings that in such country where corruption, nepotism and mismanagement is rife, why one stay united.

One can imagine that whenever Pakistanis get into trouble, be they in Baluchistan, Sindh, Punjab, KPK, or Kashmir, they look towards military to give them relief, and no one even trust those politicians who they themselves voted …

In this election, EC decided to introduce a box so that people can vote that they do not want to approve any politician contesting election, but politician protested, as they know that this box would win in every constituency, and politician mandate would become joke, hence box got removed.

I bet if there would be a box on ballet paper asking people to vote military rule (as a candidate) then military would win most Pakistani constituencies.

Just imagine … Pakistan is a country where Prime Minister (Gillani) makes statement that if Pakistanis want to live in Pakistan then bear whatever corruption, nepotism and mismanagement political government do, else leave Pakistan (as if, Pakistan iss kay baap kee jageer hay). Minister makes statement that he also has right to do corruption (Jatoi). Senator makes statement that it is our culture to bury women alive (Zahri). President (Zardari) makes statement that promises are not Quranic words that it should be honoured. Leader of opposition party and prime minister twice (Nawaz Shreef) blatantly lies that he did not made any agreement and when agreement comes out he says that it was for five year, than later admits that he made 10 years agreement (actually, for him also agreements are not Quranic verses that it could not be violated, as practically he violated the agreement he made) … and so on. ... Are they politician who could command respect? ... No, these thugs are all jokers and Pakistanis are idiots to get con by jokers.

Anyhow, as the system is in Pakistan, where there is no security and character check for politicians and once in power no one can do anything to them (other than army), martial law is certainty.

Politicians avoid martial law in other countries not because army are law abiding, but because security system and check-balance on corruption is very strong in these countries, where a lowest level police officer (Tulla, aikkani, or chawanni in Pakistani terminology) can arrest even Prime Minister if Prime Minister is guilty of any crime, corruption or misbehaviour.

In such countries, politicians rule not because constitution dictates, but because of their high moral ground that demands respect and other powers in country could not throw them out of power easily … even army of these countries have respect of the politician because of moral high standing of politician in power and army (as well as other citizen) trusts that if politicians would try to do corruption, nepotism, or harm the country than civil force implementing law would get them (book them), persecute them, and put them in jail … but that is not the case in Pakistan, as in Pakistan, politician consider that it is their right to do whatever they like (corruption, nepotism, mismanagement, or whatever) and prime minister, chief minister or even lower level minister can sack any government servant as he likes without any cause, reason or going through procedure. Such can only happen in monarchy, and it could never happen in democracy, as in democracy no politician in power can sack any government servant, rather there is system and procedure, and sacking of any person can only happen with cause and after going through the system and procedure (without any biases or personal reasons).

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Re: Musharraf returns

           			                 [http://dawnurdu.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/supreme_court_afp_1_3002.jpg?w=300](http://urdu.dawn.com/2013/04/21/musharraf-treason-case/) 	  			مشرف غداری کیس کی سماعت کل ہوگی](http://urdu.dawn.com/2013/04/21/musharraf-treason-case/) 	  			دوسری جانب نگراں وفاقی حکومت نے کہا ہے کہ کیا یہ بہتر نہ ہوگا کہ غداری مقدمہ انتخابات کےبعد شروع کیا جائے؟
185

Re: Musharraf returns

That is true. Musharraf now would have realized that he could very well have executed Sharif brothers, instead of treating them humanely and allowing them go live in a friendly country. In return Sharif's courts are bent upon executing him. They have already put his name on Exit Control List, and confined him in two rooms only.
This is in total contrast to how Musharraf treated them when he had full control over them.

The generals are watching how Musharraf is being treated. So next time they won't leave any stone unturned. If the coup happens next time, it will be a bloody coup for sure.

186

Re: Musharraf returns

^ I know what are saying but it is bizarre init. If Musharraf is treated 'shabby' then generals will make sure next coup is bloody. BUT

if he is treated well, wouldn't that motivate the generals to do more coups brazenly?

187

Re: Musharraf returns

^^^
You are right, there would be many executions. Actually, it is misconception that if army under martial law would start mass killing politicians, judges, lawyers, bureaucracy, and all opposition … than there would be opposition from people. Fact is that many in Pakistan would enjoy that massacre and none would come out or would object, as no Pakistani politician (or any corrupt) has love amongst public that public would endanger their life for these thugs. Politician love amongst public can be seen in two ways:

One: shows level of politician’s love amongst public.

1: No one came out when Zia hanged Bhutto.
2: No one came out for Nawaz when he was kicked.
3: No one came out to receive Nawaz when he tried to enter Pakistan against his promises.
4: No one came out in support of BB when Nawaz was persecuting her and her husband.
5: No one showed any concern for Zardari when Zardari was rotting in prison and Nawaz goons in police was pulling his tong out.
6: And so on …

Two: shows how much their own party members support their leaders and support each other.

1: We all know how party members leave party if they find green grass in other parties, show their loyalty to party.
2: We all know how party members fight each other and also their leadership just to get ticket of corruption in so-called election.
3: We all know what party members as well as leaders talk about each other when it comes to self-interest.
4: Actually, every Pakistani know that there are no party member who is loyal to party or leader, rather most are in party for selfish reasons.
5: And so on.

So …with such public and party supports that exists in Pakistan for politicians or for anyone, I am sure that in next martial law, there would be no reason for army to worry when hanging all corrupt politicians, bureaucrats, journalists, judges, lawyers, and anyone army would think as threat to them and their rule (martial law).

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Re: Musharraf returns

I think we all agree that the next coup is very possible, and probably imminent.
So do we really want to see a loooong bloody coup?

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Re: Musharraf returns

but we all do NOT agree that any coup is possible anytime soon. What makes you think that?

For all his faults, Kiyani has kept his generals under control and remarkably refrained from political matters.....so far. They did not march against zardari. they have not matched against iftekar in spite of mini-provocation. so what makes you think otherwisse?

Frankly, I think Pakistan is more stable today than EVER before. Just had the 1st very 1st peaceful transition of power!

190

Re: Musharraf returns

Yeh Chor Sipahi ka Khel Hay
Internal issue of …

                                                           [Nov 3 steps 'result of consultation': Pervez Musharraf](http://www.geo.tv/GeoDetail.aspx?ID=97798)
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                                   ISLAMABAD: Former president General (retd) Pervez Musharraf Sunday said all the steps adopted on  ...                                                  
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                                   [TD="bgcolor: #f7f7f7, colspan: 3, align: left"]                                           [Musharraf spends first night at farmhouse sub-jail](http://www.geo.tv/GeoDetail.aspx?ID=97729)                                           [http://www.geo.tv/images/VideoSmall.png](http://videos.geo.tv/VideoGallery.aspx?ID=11535)                                       
                               
                           
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                                           [Hasty Musharraf trial can burst open a Pandora's box: Shujat](http://www.geo.tv/GeoDetail.aspx?ID=97792)                       
                 
                 
                                           LAHORE: Pakistan Muslim League-Quaid-e-Azam (PML-Q) chief, Chaudhry Shujaat, Sunday warned that an  ...
191

Re: Musharraf returns

What you mean by WE all do not agree?
Who are we? Pakistani corrupts?

And who gave time and mentioned ‘coup anytime soon’?

I do not think that coup is coming anytime soon or anytime later. I wrote that ‘whenever’ it comes ... sooner or later … and that it is certain that military coup would come in Pakistan and I mentioned the reason too.

You are right that Kiyani is impotent and would look other way even if corrupts would completely destroy Pakistan, and would start selling every Pakistani interest to India, Israel, USA, or any other country as long as payment is right.

You best comment that is worth repeating is:

[quote]
Frankly, I think Pakistan is more stable today than EVER before. Just had the 1st very 1st peaceful transition of power!
[/QUOTE]

Can you frankly tell us what stability you are talking about?

Stability for ‘corrupt kanjars’ who are doing corruption, loot, plunder, nepotism, mismanagement, power abuse, victimization, and bring misery on Pakistanis (economical as well as social), etc without fear of anyone stopping them including armed forces as army generals are impotent?

Or

Stability to country and people of country because country rulers are incorruptible, truthful, honest, competent, hard-working, selfless, etc … and Pakistanis are seeing unprecedented economic growth, social wellbeing, exemplary law and order situation, corruption free environment, and happiness for everyone in the country?

192

Re: Musharraf returns

ummmmm... what cases were in courts against Sharif brothers? If they were, letting them go is also a crime.

The generals should be doing what they are supposed to do instead of watching over Judiciary or Politicians. Enough of coups, thanks.

193

Re: Musharraf returns

Interesting that people are crying for a general who should have been convicted in a court martial after Kargill fiasco!

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Re: Musharraf returns

Actually, there are many cases pending in courts on Sharif brothers, and there are also cases that he got away by throwing bones to Pakistan characterless corrupt judges. Fact is that Sharif brothers are worse corrupt than Zardari several times over, but get away because they also know how to throw juicy bones to corrupt judiciary and other bureaucrats. Anyhow, forget that, lets talk about what you wrote:

[quote]
The generals should be doing what they are supposed to do instead of watching over Judiciary or Politicians. Enough of coups, thanks.
[/quote]

You mean to say that if India pays Nawaz or Zardari few tens of million dollars in their Swiss account (I am pretty sure they are capable of selling Pakistan for even less), and then these thugs come to Pakistani people saying that Pakistan had enough of Kashmir so we are giving Kashmir to India so that Kashmiris can live peacefully and Pakistan can concentrate on uplifting life of Pakistani poor instead of spending on defence, and then withdraw forces from Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan, handover those areas to India, than they should be able to do that without fear from any quarters (including army ... as in Pakistan it is only army politicians fear)?

Or you want to give message to countries of the world that they should start investing in Pakistani politics, bureaucracy, judiciary, and journalism ... and once they succeed, they can do anything to Pakistan, because Pakistan armed forces and intelligence are neutralised (or that Pakistanis are working to neutralise them).

What you would do as Army chief if you see Pakistan getting sold, looted, plundered, exploited, etc … play golf, watch TV, and sip coffee?

I would regret the day Pakistan gets an incompetent and impotent army chief like the one you like. I would prefer that politicians, bureaucracy, and judges save their ass from army guns because they have such high moral ground and honest position that no one, not even army can throw them out, as, if politicians would be capable (not for corruption but for serving nation), honest, truthful, trustworthy and competent, than they would have respect from all walks of society, including army from top rank to bottom.

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Re: Musharraf returns

Fact is that, in political area, Pakistan is worth only couple of billion dollars, as any country could spend couple of billion dollars and can win Pakistan politically, as that would be enough to buy Pakistani politicians, bureaucracy, judiciary, as well as voters.

Any country willing to invest couple of billion could even install ‘Modi of Gujrat’ as Prime Minister of Pakistan, legally too ... as even Pakistani Supreme Court would give approval … just need to transfer few million dollars in Arsalan account.

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Re: Musharraf returns

^ Buying a few generals is most of the times much more cheaper than buying hundreds of crooked politicians. Refer wikileaks for details.

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Re: Musharraf returns

If a country can buy generals than war is over anyhow. Buy Generals and then start war. Bought general would make strategy to lose, so what is big deal here? That has happened many times in history, but then most time generals instead of selling themselves, took over country and became King (with guns behind them, no power can stop them).

On the other hand Generals go through scrutiny and security check throughout their life, and generals are also prone of getting shot by their juniors if they are seen selling the country.

On the other hand, there is no scrutiny or security check on Politicians. Even a toilet cleaner from UK can go to Pakistan, start his own party, chose candidates whom he likes, and become Prime Minister. Once Prime Minister, he can do anything, even sell the country (as long as generals are not threat), as Pakistani judiciary, bureaucracy, police, journalists, etc .. are all corrupt to core, and no corrupt can have capability to stop politicians in power (throw haddi to them or give threat to them, and they would lick your boots).

198

Re: Musharraf returns

Minding the borders and internal security problems, reporting to the prime minister and act on whatever I am told by the civilian government. That's what my job would be.

I am not sure why would one consider top military brass to be more honest, truthful, trustworthy or competent to run the country than a civilian.

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Re: Musharraf returns

I wonder if you know even a little bit about how CIA has installed and gunned down generals in several countries over last century. Amazing ignorance. USA considers it much easier to control a dictator than a bunch of filthy politicians.

It is also easier for a civilian government to deny requests from USA citing the parliament doesn't agree. A general cannot deny paymasters.

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Re: Musharraf returns

What you wrote above is just propaganda of corrupts, nothing more.

You are right that when army is small, ill-equipped, and deprived. Scrutiny and security-check system in armed forces is non-existent. Then it is possible for foreign countries or USA (after throwing millions of dollars) to get own person install as army chief and then make him takeover the country, than serve his paymasters.

But for a country like Pakistan that has more than half a million armed forces, most very active and patriotic, promotion within army is not so easy, scrutiny and security check is very strong, ISI (intelligence) is quite capable to give accurate report on army officers at every promotional stage, it is almost impossible to install own army chief by USA or any country.

Even once someone becomes army chief in Pakistan, it is impossible to bribe them as other army officers are always there looking at conduct and action of their chief. If lower ranking officers would even think that army chief is traitor to country, they may shoot him ... hence for army chief to even think of harming country is almost impossible.