Musharraf limo ambushed in London

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

As for Corruption..Who are you trying to kid?

First of all, Musharaf excused BB of ALL corruption.. That is why she was allowed to return to Pakistan in the first place… So that shoots down that issue…

And second. A democratic govt, is FAR more accountable then a dictator… A democratic govt is answerable to the people, who is Mush answeable to?

Give all the precentages that you want, but that doesnt change the fact that Mush is a dictator who is guilty of crimes against his own country and his people…

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

Well, brother .. my post was meant for Hareem .. anyhow, post is long or short … but I could not understand why people lie?

Here .. read yourself and tell me what is the opinion of people regarding comparative corruption between Musharraf and past corrupt goons (NS, and BB) .. from Transparency International own site: … It is 81 page long survey and obviosuly people like you who want to make opinion and do propaganda, but would not spend time to read the whole report and know the truth … I am giving you page number too. So, go to page number 40 … and check question 2. You will get the comparative result of the survey.

http://www.transparency.org.pk/documents/csr.pdf
(go to page 40)

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

I think 2007 was worst year for Musharraf, if "Corruption Perception Index" was re-evaluated then people might regard current govt as more corrupt.

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

Another point to be made... Its was the Chief Justice of PAKISTAN, that defended Mukhtaran Mai, and Aitazaz Ahsan who was her lawyer...

Ironic then that the Chief Justice was ousted by this dictator on charges of "corruption" and Mr Aitazaz Ahsan is now under arrest...

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

Well, even in 2006 survey, people still considered Musharraf government clean. ;)

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

You mean ... in 2002 TI suevey Judiciary was 4th most corrupt institution of Pakistan ... but under Iftikhar .. Judiciary got promotion in TI survey in became 3rd most corrupt institution of Pakistan .. where it is also mentioned that judges of Supreme Court were also corrupt ... so, if corrupts from judiciary were given a kick, why are you so upset? ... Is it that you love corruption? :)

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

The reason you dont understand it is because people are NOT lying… Im not talking about comparative corruption. NS and BB may very well have been more corrupt.. But there is far more complexity to the issue then just numbers.

BB and NS also had to contend with their govts being undermined by the Army, ISI and political rivals…
BB and NS also didnt have the luxury of having Billions being given to them by the Americans..

This has nothing to do with propaganda…
A democracy will be corrupt, especially in Pakistan, but that is because it is evolving..

The Army govt, is corrupt aswell, but the nature of their insitution is such that their corruption is very different…

Comapring democratically elected govts with Military dictatorships isnt as straight foward as just throwing out numbers…
These are two very different insitutions, run in very different ways under very different circumstances.
Its enough to write a thesis paper on..

In the end, the point that seems to elude you is that ultimately, a democratic govt is answerable to the people… If we had an independant judiciary, which we had until Mushrafs emergency, we could have a strong democratic insitutions providing checks and balances.

A military dictatorship, is not answerable to anyone…

So while corruption in a Democratic govt can be controled through the election process, the corruption within a dictatorship is without any control and can never be contained.

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

Really? Well, the CJ gave his son a position in some govt institution due to his name... Nothing new there... He was accused of wanting to drive a Mercedes, nothin new there...

By Pakistani standards, such things are hardly worth a glance... But compare any of Pak institutions to the world and you definently mark low..

But again, in the sea of corruption that is Pakistan, the CJ and others can hardly be considered corrupt..

But here again you bring up a non point. The CJ did his job, and he did it honestly...
Are you contending the fact that it was Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudry that brought justice to Mukhtaran Mai?
Infact, he took up many cases in which corrupt individuals were brought to task.. Are you going to deny this?

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

Yeah, funny how things fall apart and criminals are exposed overnight no?

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

While Pakistan scored 2.2 on CPI.

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

What a complexity .. that this complexity can make a gadagar (Bheekari) person second richest person in the country withing few years? :slight_smile:

So, as past time they were looting the country? :halo:

Oh .. so that was the cause that both NS and BB became billioners from gadagari? :slight_smile:

Bhutto government was also democracy … before Ayub it was democracy too .. but in survey, amongst all 6 compared .. Ayub, Bhutto, Zia, BB, NS and Musharraf .. perception about Bhutto came out as least corrupt. So .. don’t you think your assumption that democracy will be corrupt is wrong?

[qupte]The Army govt, is corrupt aswell, but the nature of their insitution is such that their corruption is very different…
[/quote]

Well, survey is about people’s perception, so if they are corrupt in anyway, why people still considered them less corrupt?

Why not? explain :slight_smile:

I do not think so. Well, if so-called democracy has made someone lose their corruption money and perks, I do not care. :slight_smile:

In Pakistan, I have not seen neither I believe that democratic government is answerable to people. That is the reason .. Khar use to say that if I would ask people to vote khamba (lamp-post) they would vote khamba. :slight_smile:

At least I can say that military dictator in Pakistan is answerable to army commanders, but not politicians. Politicians are only answerable to their own whim.

I do not believe that .. as in third world countries and especially Pakistan, democracy means rule of zamindars, waderas, Sardaris, and misguided religious leaders .. whose rules are naked of all responsibility or accountability.

At least military dictator comes from middle class and knows true need of people. They are more patriotic too .. as they are monitored in army from tender age of 18 … and if they are found corrupt, selfish, or even little unpatriotic, their promotion stops.

As for politicians, they can be anyone, even agents of Jews. There is no monitoring of their life and progress. They could be choor thugs like Zardari and NS … or could be even foreign agents. They could be anyone. I heard of a Kassai (from Halal meat shop in UK) who became politicians and later MNA in Pakistan. No one knows who is really behind the face of Pakistani politicians.

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

I hope you understand what perception means :)

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

Is it any different from the perception based on which you said current govt is clean?

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

Yes .. One is perception of Pakistanis who deal with government every day ... and other is perception of foreigners who develop perception from reputation.

Its like, perception in USA is that Muslims are terrorists. But is that perception right?

Another perception is about Islam amongst people who are Muslims and live amongst Muslims in Muslim countries. Now, is their perception that Islam is peaceful religion, right?

Have your pick.

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

okay, lets clarify which one of the perceptions you are referring to is of foreigners and which one is of "Pakistanis"?

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

The perception index that I quoted above is perception of corruption in Pakistan amongst Pakistanis .. and it is survey done by Transparency Internatonal in Pakistan, and that survey is on 81 pages (2006 perception survey).

Another perception is International corruption perception index, that is perception of foreigners regarding Pakistan .. and here Transparency Internation compared 180 different countries in 2007 (that can change every year).. using points system from 0 to 10.

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

You miss the point again...

People only precieve whats directly infront of them...
In that case, Police are still corrupt, institutions that the people deal with still dont provide anything but corruption..

Why is it you think that So many people flooded the CJ's court? Because he was actually doing the job that the lower courts and police were not...

BB and NS may have been corrupt, but fact is that their govt is a very different institution then the Army... Army corruption is of a very different nature...
Read Ayish Siddiqas book on this...
We know for a fact that many many Military people have become rich due to this Army corruption. Do you deny that?

NAB didnt even go after Military people, and all those who decided to cooperate with Mush suddenly were given a clean bill of health.

And Ayub govt was not a democracy... What histroy books have you been reading?
And the assumption that Democracies are corrupt is your assumption...
Point was, that cooruption comes from a system that is unaccountable... Democracy needs time to evolve such checks and balances... Hence why people are so upset over Mushie ousting the independant judiciary.

And NONE of the Democratic govts were allowed to finish their tenure.. So how could they be held to account if each govt is kicked out? And how can they be held to account if each time the Intelligence agencies rig the elections?

The Military are ALSO large land owners.. They serve the intrest of the military which has a strngle hold over all civilian insitutions...
Again read, Ayesha Siddiquas book on this issue.

Your whole argument like alsways is full of so many holes I dont have time to fill them all..

The end point is:
Military is corrupt, nature of the corruption is very different. So you cant compare the two.

Ground relaities under Mush are very different from those in the 90's, so no fair comparison can be made...

Democracy, will provide leadership and give a voice to the people... Dictatorship by its very nature is devisive and centralized, both of which create more problems...

And again, I have said this before but you dont understand... All these politicians will die, but the institutions will live on...
Democracy needs to be allowed to evolve.

Military will only increase the countries problems as they dont give a long term solution to the issues...

You think to short term, when you should be thinking long term.

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

Well, suddenly the perceptions of PAKISTANIS matter to you? Where was this concern for public perception when Mushie decided to be president for another 5 years, even though surveys show that 68 percent of the people feel he should step down?

Going by Public perception, the CJ is innocent and Mushie should step down no?

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

So I suppose you have given Mush govt a clean bill of health because even though he and his govt are still corrupt, they are less corrupt then his predecessors?

Why then are you so tough on the CJ whos corruption pales in comparison to that of Mushies govt?

Selective criticsm at its finest… Thats why you lose credibility. :rolleyes:

Re: Musharraf limo ambushed in London

[quote]
And Ayub govt was not a democracy... What histroy books have you been reading?
[/quote]

What you think, Ayub government was democracy? :)

I think you did not read my post or if you read than you did not even tried to understandand what I wrote, so .. there is no point answering you. Right? :)