Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
As for your bus route conclusion, first I think you should fire your legal advisors, then refer to this… Think they make a good point.
http://www.paklinks.com/gs/showthread.php?t=177922
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
PP1,
If you read the above linked thread carefully, you'll find that the article was written by a partisan member of the previous BJP regime. It has about the same weight as your mullah parties' daily statements saying Musharraf has sold Pakistan's nuclear program to the US. :)
The bus service is a good idea simply for humanitarian reasons. So even if it is a climbdown by India, I say its jolly well - all for a good cause. Besides, the service and the idiotic jihadi attack reminded the world that the jihadi cause is dead.
As to the previous post, the US is saying that this particular reward -
F-16s was possible because of peace process. So if you still think the US is giving F-16s to Pak for another Kargil type stunt, feel free. I say that when the US is talking in Indian terms like cross-border infiltration and terrorism as opposed to human rights or freedom struggle, its okay with me. :)
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
“They messed up. The locals want the bus more than them. The jihadis attack on the passengers backfired.”
Agreed, but I dont know the logic behind the move, so I cant really say whether it was a good move or a bad one…
“Again and again the Bush admin mde it clear that the F-16 sale is in the context of peace in South Asia. Meaning - if Pak tries Kargil or jihadi escalation like the parliament attack - fuggedabout it.”
The onus is also on India here mera Dost… How likely is it that America would continue supplying you with Arms at the expense of Pakistan no matter how many Kargils take place? America needs a Pakistan that friendly towards America, they arent their to tow the Indian line and kiss your brown butts.
“No its not about India’s importance. It is about stability. If we have warlike situation, risk of nuclear escalation is there. US fear of Pak nukes leak out increases. If we have another Kargil - the US shuts down the arms pipe period. Like 1965, like in Kargil.”
I dont think so… The US initially shut of the arms tap because of the Nuclear issue. Before then , America conintued to arm pakistan despite two wars with India. The strategy is basically the same now only more well rounded. Now they not only supply arms to make both sides feel sucure but do aong with the peace process to build confidence is real terms and strategically in the hearts and minds of both countries.
“Let’s cut this out buddy. All those years Pakistan was calling for “peace” it was using jihadis to slit throats and bomb legislatures. Now the infiltration is down. So things are moving.”
We should make a list of things we would like to “cut” out from the rhetoric. Im sure I can come up with a bit myself. Anyways, here is the thing with that. The Jihadis were never really under the control of Pakistan, so regardless of how much you people ranted and raved there was little that could be done. I belive that Musharafs only way to reign in the Jihadis was through Ppeace with India and then useing that mommentum to kill of the struggle. Your PM finally realized that to end the Jihadi menace, they would have to accept Paks peace overtures and wisely decided (despite the contiued movements along the LOC to accept peace). You yourself have to admit that the Peace in the Subcontinent despite the continued troubles in Kashmir has actually been a good thing. So back to my point, it was Pakistan calling for peace and India choosing war.
"You don’t understand the level to which this whole thaw is tied to the infiltration.
Here is what Condoleezza Rice said in a speech yesterday. No one even asked her, she said it in the speech herself."
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Now, the interesting thing is that the more progress they make, the more the populations really want that progress to continue. They don’t want to go back to the bad old days. Now, there are problems. **There’s still incursions across the line of control which divides Kashmir. But it is a much better atmosphere now and our role has been to be supportive of that. **
And if I could say just one more word about this, it is an interesting phenomenon because, because of the war on terrorism, where essentially countries were made to make a choice about supporting extremism and terrorism or not, I think President Musharraf’s decision that he was not going to support extremists no matter what the cost, no matter if it was in Kashmir or anyplace else, put India and Pakistan, in a sense, on the same side of the war on terrorism, and that has been very important in contributing to their efforts.
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Thats BS. This doesnt support your argument at all. The inflitrations continue number one despite the peace process. But assuming they have decreased, that only supports my argument that peace is the only way India can control Kashmir. So the Peace process is not beholden to the infiltrations on the LOC, but because of them.
You don’t understand the level to which the whole US-India-Pak triangular relationship is tied to peace on the LoC and avoidance of jihadis. Bush and Condi and everyone in the US are saying as much. Sometime in the last few months, Mushy made a strategic decision to treat the Kashmir jihadis as he treats other terrorists. That was the crucial change.
Also see: this interview to understand how much of a factor peace in Kashmir is for the F-16 decision.
If Mushy revives jihad-e-Kashmir, the whole thing falls off.
If America were as involved in the Kashmir problem, then they would have been more encouraging towards a solution, but they havent been. Americas policy on Kashmir seems more in line with Pakistans. While India is happy to settle for “peace” along the LOC, and let Pakistan grumble, Pakistan and America to I feel want a lasting solution to the problem, although they perfer to stay on the side lines so they that India doesnt feel itself being self importance undermined. This means not only peace along the LOC but in all of Kashmir and the Sub continent. Ofcourse, India is going to drag its feet, all the while trumpeting its own over inflated ego by poseing for picture next to the “peace bus” and other such gimiks to fool the world into thinking its the sole harbinger of peace in the subcontinent. Gotta hand to the Indians, they play their cards well, they are both the villain and the hero at the same time.
"Lobbyists can only do so much. I’ve been saying since 2004 that the F-16s are only a matter of time. Search my posts.
But if you think the US is going to support Pak is Mushy does another Kargil or revives the jihad - feel free. That is the kind of thinking that led to 1965, Kargil etc."
Bhai, this is an obvious failure on the part of India and im not going to stroke your anger by pointing it out as such over and over.
Basic point is, im not going to delude myself by thinking Pakistan is more important then it is, it would however be an injustice to devalue our strategic importance.
Regardless of Kargil, Pakistan isnt going to lose this strategic worth. Even if America decides to halt arms sales to Pak, they would do something to keep the balance in the region by not leaning to heavily on one side. So India would also end up being hurt. In case of another Kargil, America will resart shuttle diplomacy and make a beline to avert another war, but afterwards, they will again try to keep balance. Your assesment of this whole thing seems a little pedastrian Talwar, I would expect more:)
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Teek hai bhai… But I tend to see it as a victory for us. That the thing with compramise, both sides covet their own success, and secretly they will both see themselves as the winner… Really a matter of seeing the glass half full or half empty…
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
ek aughr baat... You choose the MMA to illustrate your point. But has it occured to you that the MMA has never had any real support (until now but that most likely because of the lack of real parties and the whole 911 thing). '
And unlike the BJP which were in power for what ALMOST TEN YEARS!!! The MMA have never had a govt in power. In just about every elction in Pakistan chequered history, the MMA have won a insignificanty small number of seats.
And while the MMA has almost no chance of ever being in the majority, I think that its safe to assume that the BJP will be able to come back to power sometime in the future...
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Re Post #63, again if you think that Mushy can revive the jihad, feel free to think that way. :)
BTW, you need to check up on your history. In 1965 and well as in Kargil, the US shut off arms and spares to Pakistan. Refer any good book on US-Pak ties. In 2002, the US refused to give emergency spares for the F-16s and as a result 50% of PAF's F-16 fleet was grounded. Refer an article on June 2003 Dawn Sunday edition titled "Use it or lose it."
Then again, if you delude yourself that the US will arm Pak for its adventures against India, feel free to do so. Who am I to wake you up :p
America supplying arms to India doesn't arise because India has not and most likely will not buy big weapons from the US precisely for the above reason. During Kargil, the French, the Israelis and the Russians worked overtime to send us stuff. We tend to remember such help. :)
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Talwar, how is the BJP compared to a Mullah party??
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Yes, and the Arms sale started up promptly after wards:) Now the difference is that America see’s that cutting of supplies and supoprt to Pak ends up bitting it in the ass later on. So while the liklihood of another Kargil is unlikely, barring any kind of screwed up beligerant overtures from India, America isnt going to simply smack sanctions on Pakistan or dry up their arms sale. Tthey may curb it a bit but I really dont think they would end it completely.
America would defenently do something, but I do think we are as important to them as you may see yourself as being to them…
And the conversation isnt about Israel and Russia its about America and its willingness to supply India.
BTW, Russia would sell a nuke to a ten year old, and Israel is just another example of Indias low morals and ethics. Plus, arent most of Israles weapons American? The last one you got was subject t American approval I believe.
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Im still waiting for his reply on that one:hehe:
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Tthe Jihadi (read al qaeda and others) struggle has taken on a life of its own. It funtions without support from a state. Jihads Talwar bhai, arent like India’s mobs which need state support to do their dirty work…
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Well, lets see it in that context then… But then you shouldnt assume that the Jihadis cause is dead, Kashmiris still have genuine greievances… Until you do something about those grievances, nothing will change.
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Both are “opposition parties” and as a general rule, the party out of power tends to dramatize any decision made by the party in power. Some BJP people now criticize the same peace process that was started by a BJP PM.
Similarly, the MMA in Pak cries foul about Musharraf selling out to America but if by some chance a Mullah was leading Pakistan on Septem 12, 2001, he would have made the same choice facing the potential wrath of an angry America.
During a detente process, concessions will have to be made on both sides. The respective governments must not be too worried by claims of betrayal or sell out.
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
The so called jihad-e-kashmir was sustainable only with state support. Sans said support it will totter on but not posing a major threat other than that of a spoiler.
If the claim that Pakistan does not control the jihadis is true, then India will be talking to the Muttahida Jihad Council, not Musharraf. 
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Governments in the US are also ruled by their legislations and rules set by the houses. Pressler bill was passed by the House which restricted US Govt from aiding Pakistan because of its continued nuclear programme. Back in 1965 and 1971, US was dictated by legislation which required the then Govt to stop providing militay aid to the combattents in the event of war. 1971 was different as revealed by released secret White House papers which show how Nixon and Kissinger went out of the way to support Pakistan because of the help extended by Pakistan in opening doors to China.
Having said that, Paksitan has always been a major beneficiary of US aid, military or economic. We may not like what the gringos have done in recent years, fact remains it was Amerikee aid which provided a new country like Pakistan with its military hardware and services. Just stating a histroical reality, it is not an opinion or stamp of approval of US policies.
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Musharraf's Indian visit is not a stunt, I beg to differ. This is the outcome of increased back channel people to people contact and an increased awareness of changed circumstances. Both parties, particularly the Indians realize the importance of economic prosperity. To achieve sustainable economic growth India and Pakistan both need stable and friendly borders, thus the lovey dovey photo shoots. :)
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
I agree. My concerns were misplaced. Musharraf seems to have changed a lot. Even Pakistani experts have realized that.
http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/11422324.htm
Quote:
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“Domestically there is a realization that the military option is not the option any more,” Musharraf told Indian journalists. “The strategy of a coercive diplomacy is no more an option.”
“Our achievements on all issues are more than what I expected,” Musharraf said. But on Kashmir, he said, “it will need a lot of time and wisdom to arrive at a settlement. Let us go step by step.”
…
Talat Masood, a former general in the Pakistani army, said Islamabad appeared reconciled to “India’s position on the territorial aspect of Kashmir.” :k:
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Thank you Musharraf and MMSingh! :k:
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
ls,
yes the above quoted was what i meant ‘terrorism in the forums’ to be. and the moderators and administrators are more than justified in doing what’s necessary to counter the terrorism. we can have a war on terror too.
it’s fun using the appropriate lingo 
p.s. you may have bunked the class where they taught about moving things to diff locations. deleting would generally mean elimination…
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Talwar talking with you is like bashing your head against the wall.. Only Bashing your head against the wall has defiente outcomes, like a cuncusion for example. With you its endless.
Tthe problem with you is that you have you head so far up your own patriotic butt that you cant see outside the box anymore.. Your vaunted democracy does little to open you mind.
Now you know as well as Ii do that the KASHMIRI people have a genuine beef with you. Your claim soverignty over millions and treat them like sh1t for fifty years and even now refuse to admit your wrongs just because of this misplaced pride you have.
The Kashmirs regardless of how what happens now will rise up again one day if you people dont resolve the problems that you have caused them. The Jihadis can come from anywhere, but the Jihad be it physical or political or whatever will always continue unless you resolve the greivances of the people.
The reason your govt is speaking Pak is because unlike you they have a relatively good understanding of ground realities, and thus they realize that we are as big a party to the whole thing as anyone else..
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Bro, the MMA is fanitcal bunch of bearded morons with an extremely limited scope…
Mullah’s in general are staunch almost suicidal bunch… Name me one mullah regime that has ever caved in to pressure from abroad, particlarly from America!
The BJP was in power for ten year, and we know for a fact that they have very interesting scope on politics. It was the BJP that started this whole peace process thing.
So when an assesment is made by them, its reason to pay attention.
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Talwar, is not the MMA in the ruling coalition, but why the MMA and not PPP or PML. BJP leaders are not against the peace process or criticizing it, but surely they should oppose some measures that the Congress has taken. And just because the author of the article is a BJP member does not necessarily mean that it is not factual.