Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Why run when you can take a bus:hehe:
JK.
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
what is the position of pakistan no land no deal?
india’s position no deal if involves transfer of land.
is there a inbetween position?
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
The Bus service actually shocked hardliners on the Pak side. I saw the reports and despite the Pak govt in Isloo not sending any official on Pak Kashmir, thousands of people showed up to greet the bus on their own, even though there are only 30,000 odd former Valley residents in Pakistani Kashmir.
Also, Musharraf has been told by the US that all these new weapons and lavish praise he’s getting is based on peace on the LoC. That is why he is talking of soft borders etc.
It doesn’t matter if Musharraf does not agree to LoC as border as a permanent solution. India will be happy if a “permanent solution” is pushed back 30-40 years down the line. 
Meanwhile Jihad-e-Kashmir is dead. If the jihadis try something serious, all India will have to do is raise hell and Pakistan can forget the F-16s, military aid, wagaira wagaira…
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
what stops them from raising hell if that'll do so much against Pakistan? US doesnt exactly have a love affair with India either you know.
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
A bit on the event i watched live:
Musharraf visited the mazaar at Ajmer at around 4pm PST with wife and delegation along side and was presented with 'chaadars' and a turban. he'll lay those chadars at the Daata Darbaar in Lahore. the crowd and press were going wild with excitement and it took a hile for them to quiten enough for him to say something, which wasnt planned, he made a statement considering the excited presence and said he had paryed for peace, prosperity etc. the he was escorted out by very tight security along with Sheikh saab and Kasuri on both flanks and a very smart Punjab Regt ( i think) Lt. Col. (Pak) right behind him overseeing the security. the undercover commandos were also gifted pinkish chaddars that they all wore on the shoulders.
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Now he should go to a mandir and pray there.....
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Bhai, members of your own media I forget where I read this, said that by allowing Kashmiris to use anything other then vesa’s to cross the LOC is tantamount to accepting Pakistan view on the LOC. Pak politicias didnt come to the opening of the bus service because some polictcal reason. They couldnt be seen getting involved because apparently it would compramise our stated position. Well thats what they say.
As for the F-16’ I think your going on an over emotional tangent here. I havent read anything about this being a present for peace with India. You will have to provide some kind of credible source to back that statement up, im sure you can manage that.
But here again I would like to point out your blatant over exgeration of Indias worth. America, I dont think, is so enamored by you that Pakistans chances of getting any kind of “gifts” are beholden to peace with you people. You should recal that it was Pakistan that was and has been calling for peace. India has either dragged its feet or done nothing at all, and all that for nothing from anyone. If anything its your country that is getting presents for your decision towards Peace.
But honestly, you have to get off these F16’s.. Im sorry, your lobbist failed..
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Yeah, shared dominion… Neither loses. I think Pak should keep Northern Areas, and India Jammu and Ladkh. The Valley and Azad Kashmir should be shared…
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Oh yes, nice idea.
That might bring Hindu Indians to table on Kashmir issue, that years of terrorism and “bleed India” policy could not !
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Oh how spiritual !
The last statatement of ur holy renderings should be
“I hereby pronounce Musharraf as the prophet, even revered by Hindu Indians.”
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Nope. Indian legal experts advised the government that asking for passports is illogical since accoridng to India PoK is Indian territory. Pak asked for UN documents, India initially said visas - we had a compromise. Meanwhile, neutral reporters say: India’s gains from Kashmir bus - i.e. LoC looks like a border.
They messed up. The locals want the bus more than them. The jihadis attack on the passengers backfired.
I suggest you look at the State department briefing by 3 senior Bush admin officials on March 25 to explain the F-16 decision.
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Here’s the point. You have a situation where you talk to President Musharraf and he says, “I’m going to visit Delhi.” Musharraf, of course, came from what is now India. He is an expatriate. He is returning back to his homeland, you know, his former homeland in a way he never has before. But we talked to someone like L.K. Advani with the BJP, which is not considered a soft party on Pakistan, and Advani is talking about – Advani comes from – his family comes from Karachi in Pakistan. And Advani is now planning a trip to Karachi, the first time he has been to Karachi since he left at the time of partition. This is different. These are things that have not happened before. And by the way, the people in the region are telling us this. They are telling us that this is – the thaw is at a point that they have not experienced in their professional lives.
But could it slide backwards? Sure it could. But that’s one of the reasons why it’s important to see this in a strategic framework. If you just took this piecemeal and you just throw – let’s do this sale here and then, you know, let’s do that sale there, then you could jangle nerves and feed mutual suspicions and hostilities and actually make this climate worse.
That’s why you’ve got to treat this in context and march forward on this as a parallel process on parallel tracks with objectives for both countries in mind, and Afghanistan, that they think makes senses for their futures. And then that helps nurture the diplomatic openings instead of closing them.
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Again and again the Bush admin mde it clear that the F-16 sale is in the context of peace in South Asia. Meaning - if Pak tries Kargil or jihadi escalation like the parliament attack - fuggedabout it.
No its not about India’s importance. It is about stability. If we have warlike situation, risk of nuclear escalation is there. US fear of Pak nukes leak out increases. If we have another Kargil - the US shuts down the arms pipe period. Like 1965, like in Kargil.
Let’s cut this out buddy. All those years Pakistan was calling for “peace” it was using jihadis to slit throats and bomb legislatures. Now the infiltration is down. So things are moving.
You don’t understand the level to which this whole thaw is tied to the infiltration.
Here is what Condoleezza Rice said in a speech yesterday. No one even asked her, she said it in the speech herself.
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Now, the interesting thing is that the more progress they make, the more the populations really want that progress to continue. They don’t want to go back to the bad old days. Now, there are problems. **There’s still incursions across the line of control which divides Kashmir. But it is a much better atmosphere now and our role has been to be supportive of that. **
And if I could say just one more word about this, it is an interesting phenomenon because, because of the war on terrorism, where essentially countries were made to make a choice about supporting extremism and terrorism or not, I think President Musharraf’s decision that he was not going to support extremists no matter what the cost, no matter if it was in Kashmir or anyplace else, put India and Pakistan, in a sense, on the same side of the war on terrorism, and that has been very important in contributing to their efforts.
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You don’t understand the level to which the whole US-India-Pak triangular relationship is tied to peace on the LoC and avoidance of jihadis. Bush and Condi and everyone in the US are saying as much. Sometime in the last few months, Mushy made a strategic decision to treat the Kashmir jihadis as he treats other terrorists. That was the crucial change.
Also see: this interview to understand how much of a factor peace in Kashmir is for the F-16 decision.
If Mushy revives jihad-e-Kashmir, the whole thing falls off.
Lobbyists can only do so much. I’ve been saying since 2004 that the F-16s are only a matter of time. Search my posts.
But if you think the US is going to support Pak is Mushy does another Kargil or revives the jihad - feel free. That is the kind of thinking that led to 1965, Kargil etc.
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Why Raise hell now? We have a peace process. Musharraf has reduced infiltration a lot and shackled the jihadis to some extent. At the end of the day, peace is good.
If India raises hell without a reason, it will only get bad name for itself. However, if Musharraf try to revive the jihad, like after Agra, then India has no choice but to escalate and the US will have no choice but to use muscular steps on both sides.
For the US, it is not about India’s importance but about stability. A peaceful LoC means, Pak’s troops are free to operate on the other border and nukes are stored safely. LoC tensions is bad for the US.
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
This forum should be renamed India 1 2 3.
Talwar ar you the official spokesman for the indian government?
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Anyway, in the current spirit, I see the following next moves:
Musharraf has already agreed with the Indian idea to make the LoC a "soft border," meaning we can expect more bus routes - Doda to Chakothi is one route. Jammu-Sialkot is another possibility.
If Musharraf agrees to close many more jihad camps and arrest hardline jihadis, India may be willing to reduce troops by 100,000 or more and move many of the rest to the hinterland, away from population centers.
Next steps - increase trade and increase people to people contact.
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
If Musharraf is outwardly making shows of power, meaning inwardly screws are being turned on him and he is in pressure from all quarters.
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Screws or not, Musharraf has openly said that he favors "soft borders." This is good news for India as well.
There is not need for a final settlement now. Let's have peace for some time and let future leaders decide on the status when the environment is different and there is less mistrust.
It looks like Musharraf is getting the same message as well, so that is a good sign.
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
Soft borders are good for one thing it allows families to interact across borders, but we cannot let our guards down. Infiltration occurs only from one side so Pakistan has nothing to loose from the soft border. We were played for fools once in Kargil and there would be no one to blame if we are hoodwinked again. Now the Indian government has said there is no need for passports for Kashmiris coming from POK, are they crazy, how are we going to keep a tab on who comes in. Such foolish measures by our old politicians may result in the death of many young lives.
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
There has to be some trust. But remember the motto - "Trust but verify." There are sure to be many jihadi/ISI types trying to sneak in but this is part of the process.
The longer the normalcy goes on, the bigger the price paid by the party who breaks it off. And India is unlikely to be unhappy with the status quo and gradual normalization.
Remember that between 1948 and 1965, we had pretty normal ties. Same after 1971 until 1989.
When people from either side go over to the other side of the fence, they will realize that things are not what they are portrayed to be. From the Pak side, PTV's daily propaganda news of "Aaj maqbooza Kashmir mein 22.45 Kashmiri Hindustani fauj key haath say shaheed huay" will be proven for what it is.
India will not mind soft borders, as long as no territory is harmed.
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
http://nation.com.pk/daily/apr-2005/17/editorials1.php
The President has put a lot at risk by the unnecessary unilateral flexibility he has displayed. He has taken measures that no government in Pakistan could have dreamed of. All movement along the LoC has been strictly banned. Restrictions have been imposed on the activities of Kashmiri freedom fighters both in Pakistan and AJK. India has also been allowed to construct a barbed wire fence along the LoC.
They key to the peace process = end of jihad. 
Re: Musharraf in New Delhi - Another stunt in making?
yes, thats all positive if its all done for humanity and the ppl who have been ravaged by India for 6 decades. from the 'Kashmir is India' or 'Kashmir is Pakistan' viewpoint, all developments look like failures for someone or the other. the real objective is ensuring peace and an end to the murders by Indian military. its just freedom the fighters want, if they have their will, theyll rest with peace. and yes, it IS NOT just the freedom fighters who are 'terrorists', the Indian Army in Kasmir, the Police is way beyond and an equal and maybe a better champion at terrorism.