Munkir-e-Hadeeth

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by SalmanNY: *

First you answer my question and then I will answer yours....

-Salman
[/QUOTE]

sure.. you do it the best way you understand what "Salat" means..It might mean ritual prayer complete with calisthenics to some.

Now tell me.. what if you don't find in the Qur'an the exact way you are today accustomed to "establishing Salat". How do you arrive at immediately accepting the next literature that you come across attempting to provide some tangible form to the concept?

Thap wrote

[quote]
So you don't reject all hadith so why all that drama in the past about how you would read namaz drawing from the Quran?

Some advice, don't reject the salah hadith and pick one of the others, safer bet innit
[/quote]

Yeah that was a huge help in making me understand that Salat wouldn't necessarily mean "ritual prayer with calisthenics". for some of us.. understanding our own religion has to come in stages and through investigating and understanding it ourselves.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

didn't all hadith compilers reject more hadiths than they declared authentic?
[/QUOTE]

Nonsense. Shows how much you know about Muslim history!

there is only one right way of praying because thats how the rasul of allah nami mohammad :saw: prayed.
you can do scientific research all you want and call it prayer but it will not be accepted by allah swt.

Their Salât (prayer) at the House was nothing but whistling and clapping of hands. Therefore taste the punishment because you used to disbelieve. (Al-Anfal 8:35)

although the verse i qoute above was revealed for the mushriks, the general meaning of this verse is that the prayer is only accepted that is perscribed in the manner as taught to us by the rasul :saw:

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *

Nonsense. Shows how much you know about Muslim history!
[/QUOTE]

Actually, PA is right.

Bukhari collected a total of around 600,000 hadiths. Out of these, he only verified 7,000 and rejected about 593,000 which he believed were false and not genuine.

Other hadith scholars such as Muslim and Tarmizi accepted even less than the 7,000. There were hadiths accepted by Bukhari but rejected by other scholars who also studied them, and vice versa.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

didn't all hadith compilers reject more hadiths than they declared authentic? no one called them a "Munkar-e-hadith" as far as i've read.
[/QUOTE]

when bukhari rejects a hadith calling it unauthentic and when pervez rejected ahadith, it aint similar....

the report submitted by cheryl benard to the us government on how its foreign policies shud be towards muslims also includes encouraging muslims to discard ahadith and stick only to Quran so that Islam may vanish quickly....

the surprising thing is that even non-muslims and muslim-haters realize that hadith is of vital importance to Islam but some so-called muslims see hadith no better than aesop's fables....

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
the report submitted by cheryl benard to the us government on how its foreign policies shud be towards muslims also includes encouraging muslims to discard ahadith and stick only to Quran so that Islam may vanish quickly....

the surprising thing is that even non-muslims and muslim-haters realize that hadith is of vital importance to Islam but some so-called muslims see hadith no better than aesop's fables....
[/QUOTE]

Actually the majority of Islam bashers rely heavily on hadith literature to ridicule the religion and it's believers.

Prominent scholars have challenged the textual integrity of the Qur'an based solely on the corpse of literature majority muslims hold so dear. Ironic that we ourselves uphold the dubious sayings that cast doubts over the authenticity and integrity of the very document that is the foundation of our religion.

[25:30] And the messenger saith: O my Lord! Lo! mine own folk make this Qur'an of no account.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *

Actually, PA is right.

Bukhari collected a total of around 600,000 hadiths. Out of these, he only verified 7,000 and rejected about 593,000 which he believed were false and not genuine.

Other hadith scholars such as Muslim and Tarmizi accepted even less than the 7,000. There were hadiths accepted by Bukhari but rejected by other scholars who also studied them, and vice versa.
[/QUOTE]

Like i said, nonsense!

Ask a layperson what he understands by the term "hadith" and he'll probably say it refers to a "saying" of the Prophet (saw). But this is only half of what a scholar of hadith understands by this term. To a hadith scholar - and in fact to any beginning student of hadith - the term "hadith" signifies not just the "wording" (or "saying" or "text") that has been conveyed but also the chain of transmission (isnad) through which the text has come down to us. The text AND the isnad together form a "hadith" and one without the other is useless. Now in the eyes of a hadith scholar the very same text/wording reported through five different chains of transmission doesn't equate to one hadith but rather five hadith. The same one single saying of the Prophet (saw) having a hundred chains of transmission isn't one hadith; it is one hundred hadith (even though we are dealing with just the one statement). Every variation in the isnad is counted as a new hadith.

So when we say Bukhari chose only 7000 (or whatever) reports out of some 600,000 (or whatever) it more accurately means that in fact he chose 7000 chains of transmission out of the 600,000 that were known to him. This has little or nothing to do with him declaring hadith "false and not genuine". As an example: Some hadith in Sahih al Bukhari are known to have upwards of seventy chains of transmission (that's seventy hadith in Bukhari's eyes), now if Bukhari chose to record just one of those chains because it sufficed to show that the hadith as a whole met his criteria for authenticity it would be foolish for someone to then conclude that out of seventy hadith Bukhari only verified one as authentic and rejected sixty-nine of them as "false and not genuine". Only an ignoramus would say this.

Let me simplify this a little more if i can. The famous hadith, "Whoever lies against me intentionally..." (it's in Sahih al Bukhari) is reported by various Companions and recorded through over one hundred and fifty chains of transmission. Now someone who has memorised the wording of this narration along with all its different chains of transmission is said to know or have memorised one hundred and fifty hadith (yet there's just the one piece of text: "Whoever lies against me intentionally..."). If he records this text in a book with just one of the chains of transmission can someone rightly say, "Hold on, out of the one hundred and fifty hadith that he knew only one turned out to be authentic and the rest he has rejected as false"? Certainly not! He didn't understand what was meant by that person knowing one hundred and fifty hadith.

Furthermore, where did Bukhari (or Muslim for that matter) ever claim that in compiling their respective Sahih collections they intended to include all of the authentic hadith known to them? They intended nothing of the sort. Bukhari: "I have left out many other authentic traditions than this so as to avoid unnecessary length." (Tarikh Baghdad 2:8-9). And Muslim: "I have not included in this [book] every hadith which I deem authentic." (Sahih Muslim, 801). If they omitted certain hadith it doesn't at all mean that those hadith are "false and not genuine" in their view. One need only refer to their other works to find them recording hadith they deemed authentic but which they didn't include in either Sahih al Bukhari or Sahih Muslim.

As every hadith scholar and student knows, the sahih class of hadith are split into two categories: sahih li zatihi (independently authentic) and sahih li ghayrihi (valid due to supporting hadith). Bukhari (and Muslim) opted to compile only sahih li zatihi hadith. This doesn't mean they rejected as "false and not genuine" the countless number of hadith validated as sahih li ghayrihi.

The hadith scholar, al Hakim, set himself the task of compiling authentic hadith that met the criteria of either Bukhari or Muslim but which they themselves didn't include in their respective works. His work al Mustadrak ala Sahihain is published (five volumes if i recall). Although he failed to meet their standards with a number of the hadith that he recorded it does at least show that there exist authentic hadith outside of those already verified by Bukhari and Muslim. Other collections of sahih hadith also confirm this, such as Sahih ibn Hibban, Sahih ibn Khuzaimah etc.

Of course, Bukhari did declare certain hadith false and spurious. But to say that he rejected 593,000 out of 600,000 as false is grossly inaccurate and misleading in view of the above. As is the claim that all hadith compilers rejected more hadiths than they declared authentic.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

sure.. you do it the best way you understand what "Salat" means..It might mean ritual prayer complete with calisthenics to some.

Now tell me.. what if you don't find in the Qur'an the exact way you are today accustomed to "establishing Salat". How do you arrive at immediately accepting the next literature that you come across attempting to provide some tangible form to the concept?

Thap wrote

Yeah that was a huge help in making me understand that Salat wouldn't necessarily mean "ritual prayer with calisthenics". for some of us.. understanding our own religion has to come in stages and through investigating and understanding it ourselves.
[/QUOTE]

So ** PA ** and ** Nescio ** How you guys pray in your daily lives ? ** Nes** As you said that * Scientific research is the highest form of prayer *..... So do you consider your looking for stars in the sky; a form or prayer that is equal to namaaz ?

And *PA * How do you understand Salaat as you said in your above post.? I mean where do you look into for understanding the Salaat ?

-Salman

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

uphold the dubious sayings that cast doubts over the authenticity and integrity of the very document that is the foundation of our religion.

[25:30] And the messenger saith: O my Lord! Lo! mine own folk make this Qur'an of no account.
[/QUOTE]

PA, can you please elaborate for me , what you mean by "dubious" sayings. Maybe what is dubious for some is because they measure everything in Western standards. Please give an example of a dubious saying.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by SalmanNY: *
And **PA *
How do you understand Salaat as you said in your above post.? I mean where do you look into for understanding the Salaat ?

-Salman
[/QUOTE]

don't u think that's between me and the entity whom I worship.. I did my part.. where's your part of the answer? what if u don't find the way u specifically perform your rituals in the Qur'an.. what logic leads you to accept wholesale the first other corpse of literature that claims to offers an explanation?

[quote]
Islamabad wrote
PA, can you please elaborate for me , what you mean by "dubious" sayings. Maybe what is dubious for some is because they measure everything in Western standards. Please give an example of a dubious saying.
[/quote]

There are many.. google the Textual integrity of the Qur'an.. EVERY scholar who finds problems and issues to raise does so borrowing from hadith literature.. only John Burton has written that the codex we have today is the Codex of Muhammad.. and his basic premise was:

[the Hadith are a 2nd or 3rd century forgery created to justify the doctrine of abrogation which in turn is used to reconcile the Sharia (law) with the Qur'an. He argues that the Hadith depict the Qur'an as being corrupted - and then he rejects the Hadith.]

comes as no surprise that most Christian scholars or researchers disagree with him.. but it's sad that many mainstream Muslims would want to uphold the same sayings and don't mind undermining the Qur'an in the process.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

Actually the majority of Islam bashers rely heavily on hadith literature to ridicule the religion and it's believers.

Prominent scholars have challenged the textual integrity of the Qur'an based solely on the corpse of literature majority muslims hold so dear. Ironic that we ourselves uphold the dubious sayings that cast doubts over the authenticity and integrity of the very document that is the foundation of our religion.

[25:30] And the messenger saith: O my Lord! Lo! mine own folk make this Qur'an of no account.
[/QUOTE]

the aayat u posted is a good sign for urself and others of ur like....
care to read just a couple of verses back and u will come across this....

Quran 25:27
*On the day when the wrong-doer gnaweth his hands, he will say: Ah, would that I had chosen a way together with the messenger (of Allah)! *

this way of the messenger is commonly known as sunnah of the prophet and we learn it thru only the ahadeeth....

so dont just reject hadith and end up gnawing ur hands....

I have no problem with you or the entity you worship. You claim to be a muslim and i am not challgening that. The only thing I am asking you is… how do you pray when you go to Mosque or at home ? which method do you use ? and why do you use it ?

Is it too personal of a question to ask ?

As for me I am with the billion other idiots who worship their Allah swt the way Mohammad :saw: has shown us… What about you ?

-Salman

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by armughal: *
the aayat u posted is a good sign for urself and others of ur like.... care to read just a couple of verses back and u will come across this....

Quran 25:27
*On the day when the wrong-doer gnaweth his hands, he will say: Ah, would that I had chosen a way together with the messenger (of Allah)! *

this way of the messenger is commonly known as sunnah of the prophet and we learn it thru only the ahadeeth....

so dont just reject hadith and end up gnawing ur hands....
[/QUOTE]

seriously armughal, do u think i'd post it without knowing the context? why do u make somersaults in your logic.. the verses state that the wrong doer DO NOT choose the "way together with the messenger"..

now here's where u jump in with "the way of this messenger is commonly known".... .. huh???

keep reading the verses instead of jumping in with your own suppositions.. and you arrive at the verse I quoted where the Messenger himself will only compain about his people deserting the Qur'an..

Now will the messenger complain about peole deserting "something commonly known as sunnah"? Will he complain about them not following Bukhari and the Gang? Will he complain about people not dressing up like him or wearing their hair like him or cleaning their teeth like him??

We all know the answer already.

and SalmaNY.. i guess i'm asking something u may have no clue about.. so let's leave it here.. I gave you my response but u still have no understanding of the question even.

I don't pretend to know all of the answers (and neither should anyone else), but one thing I know with complete certainty is that God will answer prayers without checking to see which direction you are facing, how many times you prayed that day, the wording you use, which body parts are cleaned or shaved beforehand, or any other mechanical or cultural activity that has nothing to do with one's relationship and reverence to God. As long as it is sincere and from the heart is all my God requires. Did God not answer prayers before Muhammed, was that huge detail dropped from previous holy books, or was it a new rule God came up with?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
I don't pretend to know all of the answers (and neither should anyone else), but one thing I know with complete certainty is that God will answer prayers without checking to see which direction you are facing, how many times you prayed that day, the wording you use, which body parts are cleaned or shaved beforehand, or any other mechanical or cultural activity that has nothing to do with one's relationship and reverence to God. As long as it is sincere and from the heart is all my God requires. Did God not answer prayers before Muhammed, was that huge detail dropped from previous holy books, or was it a new rule God came up with?
[/QUOTE]

true, allah can reward any one he wants, but if some one REBELS and INTENTIONALLY rejects the way allah has perscribed prayers, then punishment becomes liable. thats our point.
however, if some one does not come across authentic ways of praying, he can pray any way he deems with with right intention.

Did Allah, Muhammed, or those who interpreted Quranic scripture to mean that one must imitate every mechanical action of the prophet prescribe these practices? Perhaps one can intentionally reject that interpretation and follow other verses in the Quran which state that it is a complete book without further laws needed written by mere humans.

Besides, that doesn't address the fact that God answers prayers to all humans whether or not they are Muslim and whether or not they have read the "rules" for praying and discarded them irrelevant.

It would help if you first tried to understand what the question is… supplicating in Islam requires no prior washing, time constraints, direction or whatever. This is an unrestricted form of worship that may be performed at any time in whatever state you are in.

As for Salat, then certain rules do apply as specified in scripture but this is just one act of worship from among many even if it is a highly important one. To pick this one out so you can finger-point or impose your own personal definition of what is an acceptable act of devotion is pretty ludicrous. Some advice: Spend some time actually worshipping God yourself instead of childish fault finding of other people’s ways of revering God? :nono1:

was Salat not established by generations before prophet Muhammad? did they learn it from Sahih Bukhari?

^^ Meaning, according to your logic, that they didn't need to learn it from the Qur'an either! How bizarre!

how come? I'm only out to disprove this notion that since the Qur'an doesn't detail the methodology of a certain act of worship it MUST be studied from post Qur'anic compilations of hearsay.