but as for the follow Allah and his messenger, then we get back to something discussed numerous times here, but let me bring forward another example:
If Allah says to follow him and his messenger and is talking about cleaning oneself.....is it more important to keep ur teeth clean (the message from the Qur'an) or whether or not you do it specifically with a miswaak (the Hadith)? I think the former is more important, if not the only thing important....the latter can easily be disgarded if only u keep ur teeth clean.
the example of miswak is only given cuz back then toothbrushes weren't available...nothing mystique or religious about the miswak
Lets put it this way. If you want to use Colgate and not miswak, thats fine. Because, ofcourse following the sunnah of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) is not a farz (or mandatory) part of Islam, unless he is explaining how a command in the Quran needs to be executed (e.g. how to offer salah). Then again, there are countless people who lovingly follow or try to follow each and every act of the Prophet, because they think its a good way to get closer to Allah and his messanger. This optional and not mandatory.
Faisal, so you are saying Quran is pointing towards hadees when it says to follow the Exalted Rasul?. Well, what did Muslims follow in the first 200 years before a compilation of hadees took place?. I know you would say that they followed word of mouth sayings but I just can't see the Quran asking the newly born Umma to follow something other than Quran and that too a word of mouth.
I believe in ahaadess but ONLY those that do not contradict the Quran. There is a hadees that states people will associate things to the Exalted Rasul that would contradict the Quran. Why don't the blind followers of hadees read this one?
I thought when the Quran tells us to follow the ways of the Exalted >>Rasul it is pointing towards his actions described within the Quran.
i dont know, but Hazrat Muhmammad's PBUH, actions are very very rarely mentioned in the Quran, and that too very indirectly and obscurely. as in how can you possibly know about an ayat which goes something like aur apnay saathiyoan koa bata doa kay hum un say raazi hain, without the sulaih-hudaibiya ki baith kaa background. even otherwise, the Quran is full of the stories of other Prophets, but when it comes to the Prophet barely any are mentioned and that too such that you can often not make the 'same' sense of it, as you would if you followed the background history provided.
and yes it is true there are a very few ayats in the Quran which do contradict themselves. for them we use the principle of abrogation. best to ask that blue-with-Islam-hate Sher about it.
pakiabroad:
It's easily proven from the Qur'an that the "follow the messengers" >>bit is about following monotheism as they preached it.
what do you mean by this? if it was that easily proven it wouldn't be such a contentious issue. what has following a messenger got to do with following monotheism, you can easily do that even if you believe in trinity like the christains.
lets get the purpose of the thread clarified please....
the people who think hadith is no better than a fairytale have been given good answers in many threads before....
they still remain without an answer on the very basic question of how one shud establish slaat without relating to hadith hence i dont think we shud drag on with other topic related to the issue....
P.S. dont u think its strange that for 1400 years no one questioned ahadith and now all of a sudden people just realized that hadith is all made up....
If everyone rejects a hadith based on their personal (often limited) understanding we will all have a different (individual) version of islam. Will that be helpful?
Thats why religious rulings cannot just be derieved by an individual, we have to ask scholars.
And to those who reject hadith completely, simple question, which has been asked alot of times but has never been answered, or even attempted, how do you guys pray?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by funguy: *
Faisal, so you are saying Quran is pointing towards hadees when it says to follow the Exalted Rasul?. Well, what did Muslims follow in the first 200 years before a compilation of hadees took place?. I know you would say that they followed word of mouth sayings but I just can't see the Quran asking the newly born Umma to follow something other than Quran and that too a word of mouth.
I believe in ahaadess but ONLY those that do not contradict the Quran. There is a hadees that states people will associate things to the Exalted Rasul that would contradict the Quran. Why don't the blind followers of hadees read this one?
[/QUOTE]
To your first para, I think you answered your own question. Ofcourse the life of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) was transmitted from generation to generation and muslims tried to live their lives as similar to the live of the Prophet as possible. Printing presses were not invented and the biggest source of information remained word of mouth. People did have excellent memories, as well.
To your second para, absolutely. Any hadith that contradicts quran should be rejected. That is/was one of the first tests. However, whether it has contradicted quran or not is dependent on our knowledge of Quran and hadith. So, as M said, either we do this exercise on our own each time, and attempt to come to the right decision, or we utilize the prior work done in this arena by people who spent their entire lives on this. Choice is ours. You can definitely choose to re-invent the wheel, so to speak. Not a problem, and likely to be a very blessed activity.
actually there is an answer to that one :)
it goes like, that there is an ayat in the Quran which says pray like the way prayer is done round the Kabah, and then there is some other ayat or derived conclusion etc., which says till eternity the prayer round the Kabah will go on. so in effect God is saying kay that He is ensuring that the way of the Salat will be preserved for all times to come, and thats how we can know the way of Salat, without referring to Ahadith.
i think believing or not believing in hadith ultimately all boils down to degrees of piety. kuch log contradiction daikh kay chorh daytay hain, ur kuch pakray rehtay hain.
Nescio, briaather.. Sometimes you really really crack me up… at least you are good for something i.e amusing people…
Stop trying to answer my question with another question… If you can answer it good… If not, there is no harm in admitting that you have no answer to the question. Plain and simple.
at least you are good for something i.e amusing people…
so why all that drama in the past about how you would read namaz drawing from the Quran?