Munkir-e-Hadeeth

ammar,

First let me clarify that there are many different opinions on Hadiths. 1) There are people who do not consider Hadiths to be authentic at all. 2) Muslims who do not consider it credible enough to be taken into account when making religious decrees. Though as history (which is at times bias and in-accurate) they do not have a problem with it - Usually known as ‘Ahlay-Quran’ 3) Muslims who consider Quran above Hadiths or in other words any Hadiths contradicting Quran will be deemed unauthentic. This is actually Hanafi Fiqh. 4) Muslims who consider all Sahih Hadiths (or at least Sahih Bukhari) to be authentic without question and also integral part of Muslim doctrine & especially jurisprudence.

As far as Quran’s credibility is concerned, apart from Allah’s promise inside Quran, not all reported history of Islam is through the Sahih Sitta. In fact, there are hundreds of books written through the early centuries that tell the story through their own biasness. They not necessarily go through the code system of who got this information from whom. And so we see a split in the arguments between Shias & Sunnis. What Imam Bukhari and others did was to build a structure or criteria with which they would judge which of the Hadiths are sahih & which are not. It was a thoroughly academic endeavor and they were committed to it. Imams like Imam Bukhari didn’t discriminate including the Hadiths based on their own opinions or understanding but included or excluded the sayings based on the authenticity of the reporters. As there was no written text (un like the Quran) to refer back to.

In general, not all reporters deemed authentic by the Sahih compilers can be reporting the saying accurately, due to many different reasons. It is common for me & and my brother to have a totally different understanding of what my father said a couple of days ago. Not dishonestly but it is a fact that different people view the same situation differently.

Now, it will be circular logic if the only way to prove Quran’s original text was through the Hadiths. But in fact the millions of copies of Quran around the world with not an iota of difference in Arabic text is a proof in itself. Such accuracy cannot be an accident, especially considering the fact that just within 30 years of Holy Prophet’s death Islam was present in Persia and as far west as northern Africa. Also the copies present in museums in Tashkend and Istanbul are regarded by experts to be from the 7-8th centuries & they are identical to the ones we have now. There are original manuscripts preserved in Bibliothique Nationale Paris - Royal Library, Copenhagen - Bodleian Library, Oxford and another one in Washington DC, many of which are concluded by secular archeologist to belong to Hazrat Usman’s era. But not even a single one contains a verse different from the modern day Quran.

Sahih Bukhari is considered to be the most Authentic of the Sahih Sitta by many Sunni scholars and it also contains the least number of Hadiths. There was no specific reason for focusing on it apart from the fact that it was being discussed in this thread. I am very certain about it being compiled by Hazrat Imam Bukhari [who lived from around 190s-250s Hijri] after 200 or so years. You are correct that Muwatta Imam Malik was compiled around 150 Hijri.

Adding to the whole complication is that even Islamic scholars who do hold the Hadith to be a source is religious guidance debate over which ones are true, which ones are genuine but later abrogated by the Quran, or, in some cases, some scholars hold that some Hadith abrogated verses of the Quran (such as in the case of adultery).

The Hadith are not a single, commonly agreed and accepted set of scriptures. They have been hotly debated over the past 1400 years and will continue to do so in the future, though many are commonly accepted.

If everyone agreed on the same hadiths, there would be no difference in schools of though amongst Muslims, for instance.

As-Salaam-O-alaikum everyone,

funguy I checked my Sahih Bukhari collection and I scanned all 126 chapter headings in the book of An-Nikah and could not find the hadith you are referring to. Just FYI, I have Sahih Bukhari published by Dar-us-salam and translated by Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan.

I would like to add that interpreting hadith is an art and I would strongly suggest that one seek an aalim if some ahadeeth are un clear.

Without the hadeeth we are lost and will not know how to implement the Quraan in our lives.

Allah knows best
WaSalaam

Re: Munkir-e-Hadeeth

Any body who has a doubt when it comes to hadeeth, please xplain me what Allah s.w.t meant with the following verses. Since Quran is complete, Allah s.w.t MUST have mentioned somewhere that you should not follow all the hadeeth.

Internal contradictions are a hallmark of false ideologies. How can anyone hold the first position yet profess belief in Qur'an while it says:

*"And We have sent down unto You the Message so that you may explain clearly to men what is sent for them." *[An-Nahal, 16:44].

And this:

** "Allah did confer a great favour on the Believers when He sent among them a Messenger from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs (Verses) of Allah, purifying them, instructing them in Scripture, and teaching them Wisdom. While before that they were in manifest error."** [A'ale Imran 3:164].

How can anyone hold the second position (limiting the Prophethood to 23 years) yet profess belief in Qur'an, while it says: "We did not send you except as Mercy for all creatures." [Al-Anbia, 21:107] And, "We have not sent you except as a Messenger to all mankind, giving them glad tidings and warning them against sin." [Saba, 34:28]

But we don't need a favour for Hadith about salaah (coming from the same books and the same narrators who are declared as unreliable). We need an answer to this question: If the Qur'an is the only authentic source of Guidance, why did it never explain how to offer salaah, although it repeatedly talks about its importance, associating it with eternal success and failure? What would we think of a communication that repeatedly emphasizes a certain act but never explains how to perform it? There are only two possibilities. Either it is a terrible omission (and in that case it cannot be from Allah) or another source for the how-to information is provided and it is a terrible mistake for any recipient to ignore that.

-Salman

Ps. Most of my post is copy paste from another members previous post.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sabah: *
When every other person who prayers once in a blue moon is allowed to pass judgments

[/QUOTE]
It's okay to object the term which simply means "The one who denies hadith by his or her words and/or actions" but I am under the impression that you know a lot about such mullahs I quoted out of your reply. Do you know them and their lives personally that they pray once in a while? and how does it negate the fact that Munkir-e-hadith is one who rejects the authority of a hadith?

I am sure there are people who deny the existene or importance of all ahadeeth and try to get all their guidance from Quran (though how they do that, beats me)... but my question is that if there is someone who generally believes in all ahadeeth and believes that following the sunnah of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) is the way to be successful in this day and hereafter, but occassionally shakes his head on reading a particular hadeeth and says "I don't think this is quite right". Would we consider that person to be a munkar-e-hadeeth as well?

Does one need to believe in ALL ahadeeth to be 'saved' from this label?

ahmadjee, I now get what you're saying. Yeh you're right, there is/has been debate over ahadith primarily because its reported through people and their impressions could be different.

Ahadith are judged on the basis of their chain of narration, and their matn(text), i.e. the text must show integrity and not go against any other authentic text. Hence any hadith that contradicts the Quran can not be considered saheeh anyway. My point was that

1) there are NO contradictions between the Quran and the Prophet's life.

2) If the prophet's life is reported AUTHENTICALLY, then there is no contradiction b/w the Quran and ahadith either.

3) and if someone feels there is a contradiction, it MAY be because of their lack of knowledge.. and not because of it going against the Quran. f.i. the example posted by funguy.

Faisal bhai, IMO if a person does his research about a particular hadeeth and finds it a bit shaky, then i must say he/she shouldn’t follow that hadeeth. Plus if you seek Allah and His deen, my firm belief is that He seeks you in return.

If you are true to your dealings and your iman is pure as anything, then I must say you can easily distinguish between what is right and wrong.

I think we all are smart enough to distinguish between a Sahih Hadiaeeth as compare to that ridiculed desi hadeeth. I am sure a person with good knowledge of Quran and Sunnah should easily be able to distinguish it. If not then leave it to Allah s.w.t to reward you or punish you.

Last but not least, I rather follow hadeeth carefully and not deny it altogether; As compare to deny it altogether and face the Jalal of Allah s.w.t. for not following the path of His Mehboob and friend:saw:.

-Salman

and shiaa hadith books have a seal of authenticity stamped on them by Allah the Almighty Himself??? :rolleyes:

” and shiaa hadith books have a seal of authenticity stamped on them by Allah the Almighty Himself????”

:D you’re too easy.

“I think we all are smart enough to distinguish between a Sahih Hadiaeeth as compare to that ridiculed desi hadeeth.”

If you mean this and aren’t just being politically correct, you wouldn’t be amongst those who call every other member a munkir-e-hadeeth. Especially when your fellow Muslim bother is claiming that he is not munkir-e-hadeeth. That he does believe in hadeeths but not all. What exactly do you think is your farz as a Muslim?

How is FG or Nes more munkir-e-hadeeth and someone who quotes a hadeeth under a heading that reads “jahilana riwaj” not? Do you perform selective jihad?

In collage we read a hadeeth that claimed Muhammed (pbuh) have said: A woman can’t deny her husband sex even if they’re on a camel’s back. I remember this one cuz it was so embarrassing to sit through the lecture without being able to prove that this is not an authentic hadeeth. There are other pearls of wisdom about females especially. Now had we not been allowed to question these ahadeeth quite a few females would hate Islam.

Anyway this thread is not about proving which hadeeth is authentic and which is not – I want to understand why some of you are offended when a fellow Muslim questions or rejects a hadeeth based on his/her understandings and religious teachings (read Quran)? Name calling is your solution? A lot of our females have read behishti zewar, I find even that offending. Sound of this word (munkir-e-hadeeth) used against fellow Muslims is so discoursing, as if only you have understanding rights over Islam and whatever others do is either wrong per default or can be proven wrong. What exactly is your point?

Ammar, I’ve already discussed dawa with our cyber molvis here, unfortunately their focus is not on teachings, rather they want to prove their debating qualities and prove others are either kafir or munkir-e-hadeeth. For instance, I understand its fun telling qadiyanis that their prophet died in toilet, but what exactly is your point? You want to win them back with this BS or you want them to stay away from Islam? If you claim to love the prophet so much and do jihad against those who question his words for whatever reason, shouldn’t you’re actions match His? When did He use insulting language and tone against other human beings?

Welcome back waise :)

hahahahaha, Salman, there is a big flaw in your reply to my post. Where do I say that I do not accept history writing? The fact that I see Hadith as history writing doesn't mean I see them in a derogatory way or that I do not accept them. Why do you associate history writing with something negative...as much so as to equal history writing with not accepting.

What my post does mean is that I take note of them with caution. In other words I do not accept them blindly.

We don't believe every hadith in our books to be authentic..is that clear to you molvi sahab? yet on the other hand you believe all the hadiths are authentic in bukhari..which is pretty crazy

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by NeSCio: *
hahahahaha, Salman, there is a big flaw in your reply to my post. Where do I say that I do not accept history writing? The fact that I see Hadith as history writing doesn't mean I see them in a derogatory way or that I do not accept them. Why do you associate history writing with something negative...as much so as to equal history writing with not accepting.

What my post does mean is that I take note of them with caution. In other words I do not accept them blindly.
[/QUOTE]

Nescio, I've said this before and I'll say it again. You really love your Hadith = History analogy, without seeming to acknowledge that this is the unspoken premise that Islamic scholars use anyway when dealing with hadith.

To paraphase the ayat from the Quran, we're supposed to do what the Prophet (pbuh) instructed us to do; and the Hadith and the Sunnah are the historic records of these instructions.

Like any group of historians, Islamic scholars (or shall I say, Mullahs), have in the past debated and continue to debate on which Hadiths are true and which are fabrications (just as some historical sources are true and some are fabricated).

The historical academic notions of primary, secondary, tertiary etc sources are exactly paralelled in the science of studying hadith, with a source being considered more authentic the fewer people are listed as having heard the Prophet(pbuh) say/do something.

Just as some long-dead historians are considered by some to be questionable, and by others to be reliable, so are some narrators of hadith considered less reliable than others.

Just as some historical sources are considered weak because someone wrote that someone heard that someone heard that someone did , so are some hadith considered weak by Islamic scholars.

The difference between conventional historic study and the science of hadith is that the former is done for the sake of satisfying academic curioisity with out past; the latter is done for the sake of getting an accurate understanding of our religion.

If an aspect of ancient Trojan history is debated, it's purely an academic problem; if a particular hadith is debated, it is a matter of identifying what is a part of Islam and what is a post-Islamic innovation.

u need to have some blind faith to accept any religion.. I guess some people need to extend that blind faith till it encompasses anything and everything 'religious'.. lest they leave anything out.. kinda like studying all text books for an exam not knowing from where the actual test questions would be.

The Quran claims that it has been made easy for you to understand. Then why does one need the help of hadees to understand Quran. Shouldn't it be the other way around?.

^^ what about all those ayats which tell you to follow the Quran and the way of the Prophet (PBUH). loads of ayats to this effect. The second cluase would be redundant, if it wasn't meant to be ahadees.

I thought when the Quran tells us to follow the ways of the Exalted Rasul it is pointing towards his :saw: actions described within the Quran.

^like namaz?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ghuLail: *
^^ what about all those ayats which tell you to follow the Quran and the way of the Prophet (PBUH).
[/QUOTE]

and the "way of the Prophet" is automatically equal to hadith literature? It's easily proven from the Qur'an that the "follow the messengers" bit is about following monotheism as they preached it.... not how they brushed their teeth.

No no no. This is way too narrow. Quran doesn’t document how our Prophet (Peace be upon him) lived his complete life. For that we rely on his life history and his words. Granted not all Seera-e-Rasool books or all ahadeeth may not be 100% true and faithful representation of his life, but many are. So, while its perfectly ok to be intelligent about the whole thing and do your due-diligence on stuff which is passed on as ahadeeth, but to slam them all saying only Quran is sufficient for me, thats a dicey preposition. Then again, to each his own. I am just giving my opinion.