I stand by everything I said. My point is that while we have to make sure we don’t harm others, it doesn’t mean that everything we do has to be according to their each and every whim. That includes the man’s right to marry and second wife with or without the permission of his first wife.
You’re right, I’m putting the “man is harmed if his wife opposes his intentions to marry a second wife” in the same boat as your “the woman being harmed by a man marrying another wife against her wishes.” As you said, you can excuse any bad action that way. That’s how far fetched I find your “woman being harmed if husband marries another woman” example.
So the way that I would distinguish when someone is being oppressed or not is done by seeing what rights given by Allah are being violated if any, and if the person who is the alleged oppressor is doing something outside of his/her rights given by Allah.
As to what are the rights being allegedly violated here and what rights everyone has, this is a point we both disagree on. Another one would be the hadith that I mentioned, then that just shows that we can’t even agree on each other’s evidence. I don’t even believe there was any talk of a divorce in that case. So any further discussion on this between the two of us would be futile. Nothing that you’ve said has made me budge on my position, and I’m sure that you feel the same way about whatever points I made.
While I’m skeptical about anything I see on the internet, particularly articles on deeni masa’il I had a look at the article. After seeing the front page of the site, I’ll just say that the site and anything on it now holds absolutely no credibility as far as I’m concerned.
I agree with you terible guy.:k: .Why should we have any regards for the sites made by “murtad” with the purpose of making other muslims “murtad” too:naooz: .
And yet you still write back, knowing that I wont budge from my position. You have yet to show an example where the Prophet scolded a woman for not allowing her husband to remarry. In situations like that, as his daughter was in, divorce was the option. And I don't see how you can see it otherwise, because its reported so in the hadith. Now if we want to pick and choose our hadith, then that's okay.
So, if a guy marries a second time, lets evaluate possible reasons.
Lust. Invalid according to Islam, so this is not a valid possibility.
Charity. Valid according to Islam.
Can you think of any other reasons to marry? More companionship or emotional cushioning? Now that would be a joke. The idea that you can fall in love with more than one woman? Then again, we go back to what is love? If its nothing more than attraction, it falls into the lust category. If its the companionship issue, then that leaves one wondering why the first isn't enough for companionship? Is somethign wrong withthe first? Is he not in love with her anymore? Hence, now he has hurt her, because he's no longer really as emotionally connected with her such that he would be happy with her.
In other words, he no longer really loves his wife. If you think its okay to fix that solution by taking another wife, and that leaves the man acting nobly, then go ahead and think so. I think that guy is a coward and can't face the situation that most married couples face and yet still have the balls to get thru. Bringing in another woman into the house, at that point, is just a big slap in the face. And any dignified woman would drop that man like a hot potato and make a run for it. You know. Make herself happy, because she has that right too, despite the lack of acknowledgement on the part of desi men.
You know what the funniest thing is. When this happens to your mom or your sister or your daughter, then it becomes a friggin' crime. But when you do it, or you see others doing it, then who cares? Its a man's world. As long as the female isn't related to you, and you don't give a darn about her, because you know, they're not worthy enough to be treated with respect.
And even if God himself were to come down and tell you this, you still wouldn't believe it. No wonder God had to keep sending messengers upon messengers to mankind. Men are just too stubborn to accept the facts.
I can ask you the same thing. You also know I'm not budging either, yet you also respond. The only mention that I've heard of the hadith you mention is on a site that I don't trust, and I have already presented the hadith that I trust, but you don't. I have yet to see an example of a marriage being stopped because the first wife doesn't agree with it.
I'm not one to pick and choose ahadith. That's the job of the ulema, and I am certainly not qualified to do such a thing. However, I do trust them for such a task. My view that a man is not required to have the permission of his first wife to marry a second is backed up from what I heard from an aalim.
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So, if a guy marries a second time, lets evaluate possible reasons.
Lust. Invalid according to Islam, so this is not a valid possibility.
Charity. Valid according to Islam.
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Again, I have seen no proof of this. Only mention I have seen is on a site that I have good reason to be skeptical about anyway.
Besides, a woman having to be the co-wife of even another woman, even if she is someone in need, most likely wouldn't be happy with having to share her husband either. So if the issue is the happiness, respect etc. of the fist wife, that would also break down here.
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Can you think of any other reasons to marry? More companionship or emotional cushioning? Now that would be a joke. The idea that you can fall in love with more than one woman? Then again, we go back to what is love? If its nothing more than attraction, it falls into the lust category. If its the companionship issue, then that leaves one wondering why the first isn't enough for companionship? Is somethign wrong withthe first? Is he not in love with her anymore? Hence, now he has hurt her, because he's no longer really as emotionally connected with her such that he would be happy with her.
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Why can't he love another woman also? Because you said so? That is another point we'll be disagreeing on. Parents often have more than one child. Does it mean that they cannot love them all? And does it mean that a child cannot love both parents? I don't think so.
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In other words, he no longer really loves his wife. If you think its okay to fix that solution by taking another wife, and that leaves the man acting nobly, then go ahead and think so. I think that guy is a coward and can't face the situation that most married couples face and yet still have the balls to get thru. Bringing in another woman into the house, at that point, is just a big slap in the face. And any dignified woman would drop that man like a hot potato and make a run for it. You know. Make herself happy, because she has that right too, despite the lack of acknowledgement on the part of desi men.
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See response to the previous paragraph.
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You know what the funniest thing is. When this happens to your mom or your sister or your daughter, then it becomes a friggin' crime. But when you do it, or you see others doing it, then who cares? Its a man's world. As long as the female isn't related to you, and you don't give a darn about her, because you know, they're not worthy enough to be treated with respect.
[/quote]
The situation never came up, so I cannot answer this one honestly. You're right though, when you say that I don't have a problem with any of the marriages consisting of a husband with multiple wives that I know of.
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And even if God himself were to come down and tell you this, you still wouldn't believe it. No wonder God had to keep sending messengers upon messengers to mankind. Men are just too stubborn to accept the facts.
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Whatever Allah would tell me, I would believe. What I'm not buying is the stuff that you're saying and your far fetched deductions.
The site you presented me with also gives me reason to be skeptical since it is one run by murtads, encouraging others to also become murtad. You can not expect me to take that kind of site or any article on it very seriously.
I used to believe that a man is required to have his previous wives' permissions to marry any subsequent wives. I found no proof of that anywhere, and have heard the opposite from ulema. Therefore I changed my view to what it is now.
Your arguments fall flat - because everything you said can be applied to the female. If a male can love more than one woman, then when prohibits or disables a woman from having the same biological tendency? If I had to count the number of guys I've had crushes on the list would be pretty long. But does that mean its okay for me to marry a bunch of them at once? Obviously, I'm prohibited from doing that? So that can't be a reason for polygamy. If you look up the polygamy verse it is junctioned immediately after verses that speak of how to take care of orphans. You might have heard something or the other from some aalim, but everything I'm saying has also come from my discussions with aalims on the matter. In case you didn't know, aalims are quite divided on the polygamy issue and on the clauses and conditions surrounding it. Some claim what you claim, and some claim what I claim. The only difference is that I have actual support from the Quranic ayahs and hadith, which you don't. As to the questionability on the website, I believe I also mentioned the same is being taught in Quran studies and classes across the U.S. by PhD's and aalims who have studied the Quran probably more than you or I have. :)
When did I ever say that a woman couldn't love more than one man? Oh that's right, I didn't. Your reasoning still doesn't explain why it can't be a reason for polygamy. So you can't marry more than one, period. So your deduction that a man can't because you can't doesn't have any merit.
You couldn't marry a second man even for charitable reasons, as you say it is ok for men to do. So according to your own deduction, a man can't marry a second woman for charitable reasons either, because you yourself would be prohibited from doing so.
I have provided a hadith to support what I said and the same ayah is there. Except you're the one accepting one interpretation of it, while I'm not. I'm not giving my own interpretation, because I don't make any tafseer myself. You're not agreeing with the hadith that I mentioned, and I haven't till now agreed with the ones you presented.
As for Quranic studies courses being taught in university, that's another source that I don't exactly consider reliable and I definitely wouldn't look there for fatwas. Especially now that you mention that they recommend sites like the one you quoted, I have even more reason not to take them seriously.
If you wish to follow the interpretations of people who do not work in a proffessional didactic environment, and instead carry out their interpretations with very little knowledge, then you’re welcome to it. :k: Its just sad that you think its OK to hurt females. And what’s worse, is that you think its OK Islamically, and that God doesn’t care if his creations get hurt.
PyariCgudia, i don't know where you get the strength to keep arguing with some of these 'people'.......theyr'e jaarngli & don't understand, your wasting your time, forget it.
I agree...PCG there are just some of those desis who fill themselves with lust and greed. AND they comfort and justify their selfish selves by hiding behind what they THINK Islaam tells them is ok to do. Meanwhile, ALL their wives are heartbroken and living in complete misery. Leave 'em to it. They deserve the misery that they create for themselves.
As for the poor wives and any offspring, all I can say is I SO feel for you and you have earned your place in paradise just for dealing with having such a JERK for a father.