Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

If a Rafidhi is someone who rejects the usurpers’ of Imam Ali's position because of their greediness and lies, and supports the Prophet's family (MPBUT) because of their pure actions and words than may I be one until I face Allah on the day of judgment.

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Brother , just not listen to any wahabi or any sunni , neither listen to me or any other person ,..... but atleast listen to your prophet(pbuh) , .........
Brother , there are tens of ahadess , which are considered as shaeeh and hassan by hundreds of great muhadeeseen , and unanimously consistent upon them for 1400 years about 85% of great ahle sunnah wal jamah scholars that noha , matam , weeping , tearing clothes , cursing and showing impatience is strictly forbidden .......... and not accepting that means you follow your own desires and whims , not what your own prophet(pbuh) said about it...Brother , this is not fair...
Secondly brother , it is a lame excuse that we , for decades , following our forefathers doing this ...This is the same comment put forward by the Mushrikeen-e-makkah that O Muhammad(pbuh) , we , for centuries, are following idol worships as our forefathers do , how you now saying this is "Shirk"....
So brother , sorry to say , "Forefathers" , "decades and centuries" , are neither the "Merit" for"Truth" in the past , nor in the present and will never be in the future.......

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okay i dont doubt your sincerity ....but atleast accept the fact that your way of rememberence is not the only way .....and others might disagree with it .....just because someone does not participate in nohas/marsiyas etc does not mean they dont have eiman in their hearts

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Totally agree with you... I am with you brother....:) and just saying the same thing ...There is a difference of opinion about the caliphs serial no... between the sunni and shia ... sunnis think that first 3 caliphs are rightly chosen and accepted by muhajireen and ansar unanimously.. shias think that ali(ra) , being more superior to 3 , has a right to get the caliphate...( although i do not agree with it) It just the same that if someone says that If benazir will be more approripriate for Pakistan or Nawaz sharif , or some indian may say manmohan singh is the choice or vagpai ...etc etc..... so this difference is the right of freedom of anybody .....but if someone says they have "LOOTED" the right of ali(ra) , abuse them , use vulgar and BAZAARI" language about these great and respectables caliphs , sahabas and wives ....... Brother , still you think that there will be peace and harmony ... Just a fool's paradise.....

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Brother.. here you are wrong ...Muavia(ra) never used a word caliph **for him in **life of ali(ra) ... he just wanted that the murderes of usman , which were with ali(ra) by trick that they love ali(ra) while they never love , ali(ra) , the lion of god , they just wanted to save themself from execution according to islamic shariah... so when muavia(ra) sent his messenger to ali(ra) about the usman(ra) issue , he wrote in it that ali(ra) i respectr your ststus and virtues and ststus , but just give me the people directly or indirectly involve in this malicious act , i will baait you within no time.. when messenger read it before ali(ra) , 4000 men from ali(ra) army came forward shouting... we are his murderers , areest us... so ali(ra) was helpless at the moment and war started between ali(ra) and muavia(ra) ....Because to take a personal and tribal revenge from murderes as he was the leaders of a tribe banu ummayyad , the most powerful and wealthy and killed and buried brutaly by the rebillions after 3 days ... So fire of great revenge arose in whole syria and ammera-i- muavia(ra) and some men executed , i accept some sahabas also , , but it is a direct consequence of this tribal revenge... nothing more...

And do you know brother , when the chopped fingers of naila(ra) and the blood filled qameez of usman(ra) when hanged on the mimbar of damasqus mosque , there was something with mad and anger... they started shouting or crying bitterly as an old man , 83 of years old , one of the greatest sahabi of prophet(pbuh) , Zullnorain( 2 daughters of prophet(pbuh) consectuively came to him ...and on the death of umme qulsoom , prophet (pbuh) said if i had 100 daughters , i would have given to usman one after another...., who spent his whole life and money for the welfare of muslims ... bought masjid -e-nabvi , bought the well of Rooma ... he was killed by the rebillions while he was hungry and thirsy... What a act iof brutality is that ... may curse on those who did this....)
** And muavia(ra) whole actions were response of it , noting else**........

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But shia historian have made it a mountain of mole.....

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I will again say some political magboorian of ali(ra) that he made him the governer.....Remeber ,when ali(ra) wanted to execute abdullah ibne saba on what he said about the 3 caliphs and** high ranking of ali(ra) himself*... sabai in the ali(ra) army resisted staunchly* how can you kill a person who is a great "Lover" of ahle bait... so ali(ra) was compelled to leave him and just compelled him to leave Kufa and go to Madyan......**
The same thing also happened when zubair(ra) , and talha(ra) notr bait ali(ra) first and then said that we bait you if you execute the murderes of usman(ra) ... ali(ra) agreed that i will do this but now there is unrest in the whole country and ummah and if i had done this , right now , there will be more diturbance... now the sabai and killers were seeing what is going to happen to themm so at jamal , everything is allright between talha , zubair and ali , tese murderes and sabai , friom both sides , at night , fired arrows , and again these sabai had a escape.. and latter , the lion of god never be able to execute them..... Again a political magboorian......

May be , the same "Lovers" of ali(ra) , which are infact , murderes and rebels , had compelled ali(ra) to made him governor , as muhammad bin abi bakr pretends to be " lover" of ahle bait...
Not a new thing ... the same people compelled ali(ra) to accept break in the battle of safain when ali(ra) was about to win ... while ali(ra) was keep on shouting that tying quran with sword is a military tactic of muavia(ra) and umr bin al-aas (ra) but no one listen to him...... They never listened to him at any occasion .......
Just as they not listened to him when ali(ra) , just accepted caliphate, ordered them to leave madina and go to basra , kufa and egypt ,,, they not accepted this .........

This is the basic difference between shian-e- ali and shian-e-muavia that , the latter , purely arab blood know to obey there ameer , while shian-e-ali , while newly converted muslims of iran and iraq , never take care of this lion of god(ra) and thats the reason that ali(ra) gradualyy lost control over a vast area in 39 and 40 higri while muavia(ra) had a vast control over the entire muslim land........
and brother , for that of the reason why ali(ra) said to kufans and shian-e- ali that** O allah , now take me away from this world... These kufans do not like me and i do not like them..... They are "Baizar" with me and i am "baizar" with them.....**

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so according to this logic Ali[as] was either lacking in judgement OR delibrately wanted to protect the murderers of uthman
and if he was not under control of the situation Ali should have abdicated
...
[quote]
** so when muavia(ra) sent his messenger to ali(ra) about the usman(ra) issue , he wrote in it that ali(ra) i respectr your ststus and virtues and ststus , but just give me the people directly or indirectly involve in this malicious act , i will baait you within no time.. when messenger read it before ali(ra) , 4000 men from ali(ra) army came forward shouting... we are his murderers , areest us... so ali(ra) was helpless at the moment and war started between ali(ra) and muavia(ra) .
[/quote]
**
and Ali [as] also sent delegations to syria they fared no better

[quote]

...Because to take a personal and tribal revenge from murderes as he was the leaders of a tribe banu ummayyad , the most powerful and wealthy and killed and buried brutaly by the rebillions after 3 days ... So fire of great revenge arose in whole syria and ammera-i- muavia(ra) and some men executed , i accept some sahabas also , , but it is a direct consequence of this tribal revenge... nothing more...

[/quote]

atleast you accept that ...credit to you
but see this little bit of tribal vengence led to a civil war, was the life of uthman worth more than thousands of muslims?....in any case revenge of this kind was a custom of jahilliyah
**
[quote]
And do you know brother , when the chopped fingers of naila(ra) and the blood filled qameez of usman(ra) when hanged on the mimbar of damasqus mosque , there was something with mad and anger... they started shouting or crying bitterly as an old man , 83 of years old , one of the greatest sahabi of prophet(pbuh) , Zullnorain( 2 daughters of prophet(pbuh) consectuively came to him ...and on the death of umme qulsoom , prophet (pbuh) said if i had 100 daughters , i would have given to usman one after another..
[/quote]
**
what was the purpose of parading them in syria ?shouldnt a capable emir like muawiyah do everything to keep the public calm ....damishiq was still was not the capital of islamic empire...why not send them as evidence to medina or kufa where the caliph was ....who was expected to catch the killers

..,
[quote]
** who spent his whole life and money for the welfare of muslims ... bought masjid -e-nabvi , bought the well of Rooma ... he was killed by the rebillions while he was hungry and thirsy... What a act iof brutality is that ... may curse on those who did this....)
[/quote]
**
do you also curse those who are responsible for killing Ammar[r] and AbuZar[r] also early companions

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[quote]

***This is the basic difference between shian-e- ali and shian-e-muavia that , the latter , purely arab blood know to obey there ameer , while shian-e-ali , while newly converted muslims of iran and iraq , never take care of this lion of god(ra) and thats the reason that ali(ra) gradualyy lost control over a vast area in 39 and 40 higri while muavia(ra) had a vast control over the entire muslim land........*
**
[/quote]

if the wrong people accepted Ali as the caliph ....then why do you consider him as the fourth caliph?
as the "pureblooded" ones were shia-e-muawiyah according to you

and according to AHlesunnah acceptence of a caliph depends on pledge of the majority of ansar and muhajireen...but according to what you are telling me it seems Ali b abutalib should never have been a caliph in the first place ...

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[QUOTE]
[as muhammad bin abi bakr pretends to be " lover" of ahle bait...
[/QUOTE]

you accuse the son of abubakr [ra] of every crime you can think of for his alleged participation in a single murder
yet you cannot tolerate the criticism of his daughter for her role in murder of thousands....you call this justice?

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very true bro …but why do you automatically label someone a taliban or wahabi if they are critical of marsiyas/nohas?

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According to sharia, Muawia had no right to claim Qasas. That right went to Usman’s descendants. So every which way u look at Muawia’s stance; he had no leg to stand on.

:slight_smile: so many things can be said about the above lines… if you read some history of those years in detail or atleast more than what you have been force fed; you will learn that the ‘millitary tactics’ of Muawia included setting up three raiding parties for the purpose of looting and plundering various regions of Maula Ali’s a.s. territories. One those raiding parties lead by a man named Busr Bin Artat …numbering about 2000 horsemen briefly captured Medina, Makkah and went all the way down to Yemen. Hazrat Ali’s a.s. governor for that region was Ubaidallah ibne Abbas. When Basr captured Yemen; along with murdering all the staunch supporters of Hazrat Ali a.s. he also murdered Ubaidallah’s two sons in the lap of their mother. Hazrat Ali’s a.s. men of course recaptured all this area but these ‘raiders’; who had looted, plundered and murdered innocent muslims all along the syria-iraq border and all the way down to Yemen were honored and rewarded by Muawia including Basr.
When Hazrat Ali a.s. learnt of Basr’s murder and plunder, he invoked Allahs wrath on him. Basr went insane and would get fits of rage; he was later given a wooden sword and a stuffed toy to beat around. He died of sheer exhaustion while having one of his fits. Now can you also wash away these crimes of Muawia and co. by classifying them as ‘military tactics’. If thats so, why do u cry when America uses ‘military tactics’.

Most importantly, dawa_i_dil, I am still waiting for you to provide references for you shia hadith’s especially that sermon from Nahjul Balagha. I hope you didnt post false hadith on purpose, that would be an insult to the sunni’s who are here for an honest discussion.

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Brother plz.. do not play with my words … i am just saying that that the way he executed muhammad like sewing in donkey skin and burn hi which was un-islamic but it was same as rebillion killed usman(ra) brutally without food and water …so he took that revenge…

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firstly there is no evidence that Muhammad bin Abi Bakr was involved in the killing of hz Usman. Your assertion that he was somehow 'jealous' of hz Usman is what? yes a baseless assertion. Even he was involved in the 'rebellion' I would like to know the reason behind his rebellious activities.

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Why calm… it is child play that 40, 000,00 sq.mile , the world greatest land caliph was killed in cold blood, hungry , thirsty , 3 days not allowed to burried and people will remain calm!!! so that in future , any rebillion or mutunist rise with the plea that since usman(ra) murderes never been executed , so to change or kill any caliph as you want… Brother , such a unjustice is never allowed in islam…
Secondly there were also sbai in the Syria who also worsen the situations between these two great personalities of islam…

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Its seem that now whole of debate is spinning around muavia(ra) and ali(ra)... Thank god , the "dispute" and "legitimacy" of first 3 caliphs has been resolved...
Furthermore... the issue of muharram rituals seems to be also resolved... Am i right buddies !!!!!!!!!!!

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Brother you are also right… actually you go through shia references for history in which no **“narrator” or “sanad” and “matan **” and like other things are needed as needed in hadees, so **history is far less the level of truh then the **hadees… But brother , as i have quoted above , the most **“Authentic” Al-Kafi **, according to “Fuqhaa” and grand “Ayatullahs” , only **40 % ****purity level **… While most of shia scholars believe that this book was presented to the **"Imam of Cave " **through his advisors by **kalini **, **he read it whole and regarded as best for the shias **…
so if best book is 40 % pure .. what other 3 hadees books … and if other 3 have less then 40% level … **Then what to speak about the shia history books.!!! **

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Brother , i have not quoted a false reference .. just see a book named **" al-shia ****wal sunnia" **by the great scholar **“allama ehsan ilahi zaheer shaheed” **… i have recently bought it from market for 90 Rs. … **a green book with a light **brown title… he was considered as “Authority” on shias , bahais and qadiyanis etc… and see the chapter ali(ra) and abu bakr(ra) … there is an arabic word in that sermon which is translated mostb of the shias scholars to abu bakr(ra) or umar(ra) …
Regarding that you did not find it , i give the reason … why ? right below !!!

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bro dawa, that is not the answer to my question.

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Here is a letter from najh al-balagha:

In arabic...إلى معاوية

6 ]
ومن كتاب له (عليه السلام)
إلى معاوية
إِنَّهُ بَايَعَنِي الْقَوْمُ الَّذِينَ بَايَعُوا أَبَا بَكْر وَعُمَرَ وَعُثْمانَ عَلَى مَا بَايَعُوهُمْ عَلَيْهِ، فَلَمْ يَكُنْ لِلشَّاهِدِ أَنْ يَخْتَارَ، وَلاَ لِلغَائِبِ أَنْ يَرُدَّ، وَإنَّمَا الشُّورَى لِلْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالاَْنْصَارِ، فَإِنِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى رَجُل وَسَمَّوْهُ إِمَاماً كَانَ ذلِكَ لله رِضىً، فَإِنْ خَرَجَ عَنْ أَمْرِهِمْ خَارِجٌ بِطَعْن أَوْبِدْعَة رَدُّوهُ إِلَى مَاخَرَجَ منه، فَإِنْ أَبَى قَاتَلُوهُ عَلَى اتِّبَاعِهِ غَيْرَ سَبِيلِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ، وَوَلاَّهُ اللهُ مَا تَوَلَّى.
وَلَعَمْرِي، يَا مُعَاوِيَةُ، لَئِنْ نَظَرْتَ بِعَقْلِكَ دُونَ هَوَاكَ لَتَجِدَنِّي أَبْرَأَ النَّاسِ مِنْ دَمِ عُثْمانَ، وَلَتَعْلَمَنَّ أَنِّي كُنْتُ فِي عُزْلَة عَنْهُ، إِلاَّ أَنْ تَتَجَنَّى[1] ; فَتَجَنَّ مَا بَدَا لَكَ! وَالسَّلاَمُ.

[1] تجنّى ـ كتولّى ـ: ادعى الجناية على من لم يفعلها.