Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

And read the translation...

The following is a letter to Mu'awiya and in it Imam Ali (a) has used the same principle that he applied on Talha and Zubayr. Imam Ali (a) in this letter has raised all the points which were once quoted against him. He says if an election on the basis of general franchise is the criterion to decide such a caliphate, then general election took place to elect him the Caliph and nobody can deny this fact, and if limited franchise (Shura) was the criterion then those who represented this group (Muhajirs and Ansars) were amongst those who elected him and therefore even according to the rules formulated by opponents of Imam Ali (a) his election was lawful, regular and bonafide. Thus no Muslim has a right to speak or act against him. ]
Verily, those who took the oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman have sworn allegiance to me. Now those who were present at the election have no right to go back against their oaths of allegiance and those who were not present on the occasion have no right to oppose me. And so far as Shura (limited franchise or selection) was concerned it was supposed to be limited to Muhajirs and Ansars and it was also supposed that whomsoever they selected, became caliph as per approval and pleasure of Allah. If somebody goes against such decision, then he should be persuaded to adopt the course followed by others, and if he refuses to fall in line with others, then war is the only course left open to be adopted against him and as he has refused to follow the course followed by the Muslims, Allah will let him wander in the wilderness of his ignorance and schism.

O Mu'awiya! I am sure that if you give up self-agg*****zement and self-interest, if you forsake the idea of being alive only to personal profits and pleasures, if you cease to be actuated solely by selfishness and if you ponder over the incident leading to the murder of Uthman, you will realize that I cannot at all be held responsible for the affair and I am the least concerned with the episode. But it is a different thing that you create all these false rumours and carry on this heinous propaganda to gain your ulterior motives. Well you may do whatever you like.

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NO!:D at least I have given up discussing that issue. but it doesnt mean we have accepted it.

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Astaghfirullah, it should be clear how these people lie about deen. The translation is a total lie from A-Z and filled with accusations that the original text does not mention anywhere.

Now, those who say: "It is just a matter of how to make tafsir, shi'a way or sunni way. Answer me: What is this?"

The letter clearly states the khilafat was right. Now the have translated it wrong to hide this and written a little "tafsir" to show, that they really mean what they have translated it too, so it was not just a typoo.

Now why did they do that? To hide the truth. But if you show them this and make a correct translation, they will say.. "Oh, but the letter is not sahih, so we don't follow it." If this really was the case, why didn't they write this first, instead of lying? And what are the proofs that is not sahih? Taqiyya-making liars...

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Not twisting!!!!!! but itself nahgul balagha contains many things that are purely fabricated after 300 400 yeras after , *no sanad , matan or narrator level is kept *, below is a very un-biased and moderate scholar view about the book which our shia brothers and sisters consider it , parellel to bukhari.......

Question:
I would like to ask how authentic the book Nahj al-Balaagha is and what your opinion of it is?

Answer:
Praise be to Allaah.

The book Nahj al-Balaaghah is one of the books that are attributed to Ameer al-Mu’mineen ‘Ali ibn Abi Taalib (may Allah be pleased with him), but it contains many things concerning which those who claim to be Muslims have disputed. *Following the **great scientific principle **which was followed by the imams of Islam in obedience to the shar’i command to verify reports, we have no choice but to refer to the scholars and specialists to check on the veracity of the things that are attributed to ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him), because what is narrated from the Sahaabah (may Allaah be pleased with them) has an effect on sharee’ah, especially in the case of someone like Ameer al-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him), concerning whom some people have exaggerated or fallen short, but Allaah guided the Ahl al-Sunnah to follow a middle course. *

By referring to the words of the scholars concerning this book and comparing its contents with what has been proven with saheeh isnaads from ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him), **it becomes clear that there is material in this book that contradicts what was proven from him (may Allaah be pleased with him). **So we should look at what some of these great scholars have said:

Imaam al-Dhahabi *(may Allaah be pleased with him) said in his biography of **al-Murtada ‘Ali ibn Husayn ibn Moosa al-Moosawi (d. 436 AH): I said, he was the **compiler of the book Nahj al-Balaaghah which is attributed to Imam ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him), but the reports contained therein have are no **isnaads. *Some of it is false and some of it is true*, but it contains some **frabricated **reports of things that the **Imam would never have said. But who is the fair-minded man who would look at it in an objective manner?! It was said that it was compiled by his brother **Shareef al-Radiy. **It includes **slander against the companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him); we seek refuge with Allaah from knowledge that is of no benefit.*
Siyar A’laam al-Nubala’, 17/589

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “Most of the khutab (sermons) that the author of Nahj al-Balaaghah includes in his book are lies against ‘Ali. ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) is too noble and too worthy **to have uttered such words. But these people fabricated lies and thought that they were praise, but they are neither truth nor praise. **Whoever says that the words of ‘Ali or any other human being are above the words of any other created being is mistaken, for the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) are above his words, and both of them are created beings. Moreover the correct meanings that are to be found in the words of ‘Ali are to be found in the words of others, but the author of Nahj al-Balaaghah and his ilk took many of the things that people say and made them the words of ‘Ali. There are some words narrated from ‘Ali that he did say, and some of them are true words that would have been befitting for him to say, but in fact they are the words of others. Hence in Kalaam al-Bayaan wa’l-Tabyeen by al-Haafiz and in other books there are words narrated from people other than ‘Ali and the author of Nahj al-Balaaghah attributed them to ‘Ali. If these sermons which were transmitted in Nahj al-Balaaghah were really spoken by ‘Ali, they would have been found in other books *that **existed before this book was *written*, **and they would have been narrated from ‘Ali with isnaads and otherwise. It is known from those who are well versed in the study of narrations that many of them (these sermons) – indeed most of them – were unknown before this, therefore it may be concluded that they are fabrications. So the narrator should state in which book they are mentioned, who narrated it from ‘Ali, and what its isnaad is. *"""""""""""""'Otherwise, anybody could say ***something and claim that it was said by ‘Ali."""""""""' Those who are well-versed in the knowledge of the hadeeth scholars and of reports and isnaads and are **able to tell what is sound and what is not sound would know that these people who transmitted reports from ‘Ali are the least likely people to know about reports and be able to distinguish the sound from the unsound.*
Manhaaj al-Sunnah al-Nabawiyyah, 8/55.

Other scholars who pointed out the lies in this book was al-Khateeb al-Baghdaadi, in al-Jaami’ li Akhlaaq al-Raawi wa Adaab al-Saami’, 2.161; al-Qaadi **Ibn Khalkaan; al-Safadi, and others**. The things that have been said against it may be summarized in the following points: 

  1. There are **seven generations of narrators between ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him) and the author of this book,** and he did not mention **any **name whatsoever. **Hence we cannot accept his words without an isnaad**. 

  2. **If these narrators are mentioned, it is essential to research about them and find out whether they are trustworthy.**

  3. **The fact that most of these sermons did not exist before this book was written indicates that they were fabricated.**

    4*. Al-Murtada – the author of the book – was not one of the scholars of reports, rather he was one of those whose religious commitment and competence were debatable.*

  4. The **slander **that it contains against the **leading Sahaabah **is sufficient to count it **as false.**

  5. The insults and slander that it contains are not the **characteristics **of the believers, **let alone their leaders such as ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him).**

  6. It contains **contradictions **and **clumsy expressions **from which it may be known for certain that it was not produced by one who was **prominent in eloquence and fluency.**

  7. The fact that the Raafidah accept it and are certain that it is **as true as the ****Qur’aan**, despite all these objections, indicates that **they do not pay attention to verifying sources and ensuring that they are sound with regard to the matters of their religion.**

    Based on the above, it is clear that this book cannot *be **attributed to ‘Ali (may *Allaah be pleased with him), ***therefore nothing in it can be used as evidence in matters of sharee’ah, no matter what the issue is. But whoever reads it in order to find out what it contains of eloquence, the ruling is the same as that on all other books on Arabic language, without attributing its contents to Ameer al-Mu’mineen ‘Ali (may Allaah be pleased with him).*
    See Kutub hadhdhara minha al-‘Ulama’, 2/250

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What a great answer from this great scholar , in the light of history , ilm-hadees, isma -ul-rijal, fiqah , and jarh-o-tahdeel and logic.... great...Only a scholar , having a deep knowledge of all the above principles can give such a answer.....
Not used a single **abusive **word , but **post-martum **the whole issue.....

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Again very excellent insight into the history…
Actually the same answer was posed by some person to ali(ra) that ali(ra) , did prophet(pbuh) made you “wasi” after him as sabai used to say… ali(ra) replied with great anger that no , it is totally false… if muhammad(pbuh) had chosen me his successor , there is no **courage **in anybody to sit on the throne of muhammad(pbuh) , i would have fighted against him but prophet(pbuh) chosen abu bakr(ra) in his life for prayer, thegreatest pillar of islam and hajj , so we chose him for a caliphate “”

And this is 100% true… ali(ra) , the lion of god , who at the age of 9 , stood in a gathering of **banu hashim **, and said to prophet(pbuh) that although my legs are **weak **and my eyes are **paining **, i will stand by you … on again asking , no one from bani hashim replied but ali again stood and gave the same answer … and he stick to this wordings till his last breath while at every moment of his life , he had to face the knives and swords from enemies and “Friends”… but he did not give up… Took a slap on his face from **abu **jahal but not spoke about muhammad(pbuh) when he migrated to medina , so do you think a man who faced all these situations , now not accept his **“Right” **of caliphate" … on the name of "unity of Ummah" !!! just a lame excuse… nothing more…

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Agree with das reich , the best way to remeber anyone is just to follow the footsteps…

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Oopss. . . resolved? When did it happen eh? :clown:

Anyways, to trigger some more copy/pastes, I pose a question:

What is the method to chose a Caliph after the sad demise of the Prophet [pbuh]?

  1. A group of men go outside the mainstream city and quarrel over the seat and accidently half of the attendees select one person, and then, the decision is imposed over the rest of Ummah. This happening while Prophet’s [pbuh] body is still waiting for burial?

or

  1. A seated caliph with all his wisdom nominates his successor without even thinking for a while that common Muslims might not like him to be their Ameer? [Its ironic that the first caliph was wise enough to nominate a successor to save Ummah from fitnah while Prophet [pbuh] wasn’t wise to do that same. (naudhubillah)

or

  1. A man innovates his own regime of chosing a leader by confining the matter to the committee of six people of which all those who deny to accept the selected man MUST BE killed regardless of their status and virtues in Islam? and the decision is independently restricted to the opinion of one person in the committee regime?

or

  1. Local residents and members of distant provinces present in the capital run towards the door of a house to beg a man to come out and lead them in accordance with the injuctions of Qur’an and Prophetic Sunnah?

Which is democracy? and which is legal? eh? :smiley:

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Just a simple note:

Its sad to see that so many different episodes of history are being discussed in a very scattered manner and no one seems to restrict himself to one point and to discuss it with wisdom and understanding.

To add fuel to the fire, there's is a constant inflow of copy/pastes which makes matter more complex, although backing the argument with references is necessary, no doubt.

Its also disturbing that my dear dil ka dawa brother gets up in the morning, first thing logs on to the forum and starts increasing his post count. I suggest that if you have replied to someone or posted something new, you should atleast wait for others to consider it and reply. Posts one after the other with all the stuff stuffed into them is not a wise conduct. is it?

Wasslam

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dawa we dont care what sunnis have to say about Nahjul Balagha :yawn:

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^ Sunnis accept it as authentic collection of sermons and sayings of Imam 'Ali otherwise they would not have written huge commentaries on it. like Sharah-e-Nahjul balagha by Ibn-e-Abil Hadeed and others.

There were few in history who deemed it to be a fabrication of Sayed Razi, but the narrators of Nehej and its sources are so strong that they fit Sunni standards. They can't deny it on earth.

The problem occurs when they can't digest few of the sermons that go against their established norms. and thats when they deny that it is said by 'Ali.

Wasslam

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exactly my thoughts ...

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Are you kidding me? Our scholars deem Nahjul Balagah to be fabricated except few sermons? First show me is there any chain of narrators in this book? There are no chain on narrators of this book, so obviously it was written 100s of years later by some guy and he attributed many things to Hazrat Ali r.a.

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Ali (ra) , *the lion of God *, the lion of *khyber *, who alone killed 9 commanders out of 13 alone in battle of *uhad *, the door of cityof *knowledge *, the greatest aalim of *quran and fiqah *, un-parralleled *orator *, symbol of *valour **and **enthusiasm *...one of the *unique **personality of islamic history.... one of the *"Ubqari" **of the muslim ummah........

And listen carefully with your eyes and mouths open , the same great person , saying what to his *"Lovers" and "Mohibs" *, who wanted to to *"sacrifice" **thier life for ali(ra) and **ahle-bait *"Always" ......... the *"KUFIS" *.......... in a beautiful manner , just **spell-bound **by his way of speech......

                                                **SERMON 96 (1) 
                                              ( Nehj-ul-balagha)**

Admonishing his own companions :

Although Allah gives time to the oppressor, His catch would not spare him. Allah watches him on the passage of his way and the position of that which suffocates the throats.

By Allah in Whose power my life lies, these people (Mu`awiyah and his men) will overcome you not because they have a better right than you but because of their hastening towards the wrong with their leader and your slowness about my right (to be followed). People are afraid of the oppression of their rulers while I fear the oppression of my subjects.

I called you for war but you did not come. I warned you but you did not listen. I called you secretly as well as openly, but you did not respond. I gave you sincere counsel, but you did not accept it. Are you present like the absent, and slaves like masters? I recite before you points of wisdom but you turn away from them, and I advise you with far reaching advice but you disperse away from it. I rouse you for jihad against the people of revolt but before I come to the end of my speech, I see you disperse like the sons of Saba.(2) You return to your places and deceive one another by your counsel. I straighten you in the morning but you are back to me in the evening as curved as the back of a bow. The sraightener has become weary while those to be straightened have become incorrigible.

O' those whose bodies are present but wits are absent, and whose wishes are scattered. Their rulers are on trial. Your leader obeys Allah but you disobeyed him while the leader of the people of Syria (ash-Sham) disobeys Allah but they obey him. By Allah, I wish Mu`awiyah exchanges with me like Dinars with Dirhams, so that he takes from me ten of you and gives me one from them.

O' people of Kufah, I have experienced in you three things and two others: you are deaf in spite of having ears, dumb in spite of speaking, and blind in spite of having eyes. You are neither true supporters in combat nor dependable brothers in distress. Your hands may be soiled with earth. O' examples of those camels whose herdsman has disappeared, if they are collected together from one side they disperse from the other. By Allah, I see you in my imagination that if war becomes intense and action is in full swing you would run away from the son of Abi Talib like the woman who becomes naked in the front. I am certainly on clear guidance from my Lord (Allah) and on the path of my Prophet and I am on the right path which I adhere to regularly.

**In the above statement in Shia book it clearly shows that what Hazrat Ali is describing SHIA as or shell i say so called SHIA of ALI..... he is basically degrading the SHIA and describing their wrong character.... this should be enough to show how HAZRAT ALI thought about his "Lovers" ....... **About the Household of the Holy Prophet

Look at the people of the Prophet's family. Adhere to their direction. Follow their footsteps because they would never let you out of guidance, and never throw you into destruction. If they sit down, you sit down, and if they rise up you rise up. Do not go ahead of them, as you would thereby go astray and go not lag behind of them as you would thereby be ruined.

I have seen the companions of the Prophet but I do not find anyone resembling them. They began the day with dust on the hair and face (in hardship of life) and passed the night in prostration and standing in prayers. Sometimes they put down their foreheads and sometimes their cheeks. With the recollection of their resurrection it seemed as though they stood on live coal. It seemed that in between their eyes there were signs like knees of goats, resulting from long prostrations. When Allah was mentioned their eyes flowed freely till their shirt collars were drenched. They trembled for fear of punishment and hope of reward as the tree trembles on the day of stormy wind.

**SUBHANALLAH now the above statement from ame SHIA book also the same SERMON 96 describe the COMPANIONS o Prophet Mohammed as how great they were and how hard they had worked for ISLAM now tell me how the hell can the SHIA say Companions were bad and Hazrat ALi from their own SHIA book has described the Companions as great and SHIA as bad people.....

HOPE I GOT MY POINT ACROSS>....BROTHERS CORRECT ME.... the above SERMON is in Nahjul Balagha an it is SERMON 96 and i have confirmed this by reading it from an IRAN published book.
**

what else i can say to these **kufis **and **lovers **of ahle bait except :

               ***Huway Tum Dost Gis Kay Dushman Uus ka  Asmaa kyu ho ***
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Exactly… without any **chain of narrators **, i can also compile a book of **jokes **and **Dastane Hatam tai **and attribute it to **ali(ra) **, **umar(ra) **or any one else … LOL
and the guy witten it after **7 **generations… no indication of these 7 generations…

And one aalim has written a sharah of this in 1400 years , so you guys keep on sticking to that… may be he have written this for the “True” sermons sharah…

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I again say that ali(ra) was like a gem *, a precious *jewel **...but unfortunately he was among the **flock of blacksmiths... the kufis **...who never **respected **him... never acted upon his **advices... never paid attention *to this great man.... always **betrayed **him... **fought **with him... show **disloyalty **to him... and always **oppose **him.....and atlast killed him and also his two sons hassan(ra) and hussain(ra) , the leaders of youth of jannah.... thats why , the lion of god (ra) , was compelled to utter such **harsh words **against his own *"Lovers" *and *"Mohibs" **the "Shian-e-Ali"**

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Now brothers and sisters , now you will again say this sermon no*. 96 **has not as its seems to be ...... because the *"formula" *of *"Taqiyya" **can also be applied here......
You guys say this or not ......

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Yes.


You can visit and listen.


Both are right.


Again both are right.

I am missing Lahore:(
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Again false colouration to history… my dear brother , for your kind information , abu bakr(ra) was **outside **madina when prophet(pbuh ) died and he came back , **kissed **his forehead and advised **umar(ra) **as he drew his **sword **that prophet(pbuh) had not killed… Further it was on **abu bakr(ra) **ruling that **grave **was of a prophet was always where he dies , it happened and **individul **ansars , and muhajireen sahabas offered prayers **one by one **as for a nabi , the gathering **namaz-e-janaza **cannot be happened…and you are twisting the history that they were fighting…And **LOL **.. accidently selection… Brother now you will also say in next post that the same person was chosen accidently to **lead the prophet(pbuh) in 17 ****prayes **, the same was also accidently chosen to be **ameer-ul-hujjaj **in 9 higri… and the list goes on… Brother actually , not a blame on you… i was again say your history books which are better to call something like "Qissa Gul Bukoali" etc.. which are filled with such incidents…nothing else… and tell me in house of ali(ra) were all banu hashim were not gathered !!!

Again the same prejudice… prophet(pbuh) completely left it on **ummah **to decide who is caliph and when abu bakr(ra) chose umar(ra) , the next , a group of people came with a complaining about umar(ra) strict behaviour , abu bakr(ra) rose with anger , he was sick and lying in bed, and replied, By God , i have chosen the the “most” appropriate person among you…And his decision was such that **History still not even produce a single ruler **and caliph like him…in the whole human history… … and it was obvious that these two great personalities were the **right and left hands **of prophet(pbuh) in his life and all know that even enemies knew that ,on the battle of **uhad **, **abu sufyan **called , muhammad, abu bakr , and then umar , even **ali(ra) **knew that .. it was just a crystal clear thing …everyone already knew that .. the people came to abu bakr(ra) also knew that but they jusr **feared **of his strictness but abu bakr(ra) said that no worry , he will **be okay **on becoming caliph and same exactly happened…

Brother , actually the **real problem **is that why this man , the umar(ra) extinguished the **2500 years fire domes of persia or ****“Shahan-e- kisra” **ko apnay pairon talay rond kar rakh diya … Brother , this is the **real problem !!!
**

And this is the best way to avoid **fitna **and same policy was shown to khalid bin waleed , saad bin abi waqas and ammar bin alaas, the greatest sahabas of prophet(pbuh) and conquerers of syria , iran and egypt respectively ,but then you are quite but on this matter , you shout why ??? !100 % corect policy otherwise we see, the usman(ra) showed **some kindness **and leniency to **rebellions and traitors **and they even **martyred **him… so the best way is to nip the evil in the bud…
And the man whom you are calling **"one person " **, first go and read his **merits and virtues **then come here to answer this…

Yes , he was the leader , all running towards him showed that everyone knew about his **leadership **…so obvious…

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Mughtahid_e_ azam sahab… you are above ahadees …