Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)
I am not following this thread…just skimmed it. One thing that struck me was this above quote that brother dawa_i_dil posted. I have read the entire Nahjul Balagha and can say for a fact this the above reference is incorrect. I invite brother dawa_i_dil to prove me wrong by giving us a link to this sermon; as Nahjul Balagha can be found online on many sites. Or he can scan the page and post it here. Or he can tell me the sermon number and I can look for myself. I would appreciate if he can confirm this reference.
Having said this; it also casts doubt regarding the other ‘hadith’ he has posted; as I have never come across them. Brother dawa_i_dil can prove that its because of my lack of research by confirming those references as well.
Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)
Yeh it will be helpful if brother dawa could provide the sermon number. However the stance of hz Ali a.s. is very clear. Here is part of a sermon from Nahjul Balgha :
Beware! By Allah the son of Abu Quhafah (Abu Bakr) dressed himself with it (the caliphate) and he certainly knew that my position in relation to it was the same as the position of the axis in relation to the hand-mill. The flood water flows down from me and the bird cannot fly upto me. I put a curtain against the caliphate and kept myself detached from it.
Then I began to think whether I should assault or endure calmly the blinding darkness of tribulations wherein the grown up are made feeble and the young grow old and the true believer acts under strain till he meets Allah (on his death). I found that endurance thereon was wiser. So I adopted patience although there was pricking in the eye and suffocation (of mortification) in the throat. I watched the plundering of my inheritance till the first one went his way but handed over the Caliphate to Ibn al-Khattab after himself.
Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)
Brother i appreciate your feelings but things are not as simple as you give here… , there is not such type of jazbatiat or excitement…I have or anybody even said some bad or abusive language against any ahle bait or atleast about any shia brother or sister …!!!. No , we respect everyone religion and also expect that other also respect the same but i am sorry to say , the abusive and false language which is used by shia muslims and thier moderators on the world greatest shia chat site(www.shiachat.com) is so rough against sahabas and wives of prophet(pbuh) that i cannot here quote…Not only that if you post some facts in very good language but against thier views , it is deleted…Do you know , my whole of thread “A reality , but so painful…” was deleted thrice (3 times) from the shiachat and i was banned first for a month then for 6 months although it does not contain even a single bad word or jazbati argument…Brother , why these double standards !!!
I see , Gupshhup is the one of the excellent forum of the world where you can post anything whether sunni or shia , within limits but nobody will delete you or ban you … …but if someone give nangi galian to first 3 great caliphs , no one bother about but the vice-versa is deleted or banned…Yai khan ka insaaf hai !!!
Aur phir kha jaata hai khai sunni or wahabbi tangnazar or jazbaati hain !!!
Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)
You are right but it is hadees of prophet(peace be upon him) that if you listen something from me… convey to other…So we are just obeying this hadees that if we find something wrong , we proove it in light of quran and sunnah and present it to other respectful readers on the most powerful media , the internet , that maximum people can hear to it and the from us , the duty is done and let it be anyone to decide about right or wrong according to his or her choice , no one is compelled …Hamari taraf sai farz saqit ho giya … and we will say to allah on day of judgement that whatever you give us mind , eyes , hands , brain , computer and all other means , we have utilized it to spread the message of quran and “true” sunnah to our maximum effort …And this is the purpose of posting the threads and posts …It never mean that we are dividing the ummah or spliiting it rather we are presenting the "truth " , acaccording to our belief ,acording to quran and saheeh ahadees , and let other to decide as their choice…
Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)
When he was sidelined, he showed patience and refrained for taking his right back through sword. If Imam 'Ali had not done that, Ummah would have accused him of the desire for power and government. [which Muaviyah showed] But when he was trusted by Muslims as a result of consensus in Madina, [remember he didn't go and ask for caliphate when 'Uthman was murdured] and he became Caliph, he had the duty to guard Ummah, the State and its affairs from every evil. The battles waged against Imam by Umul Momineen, Muaviyah and Khawarij constitute major part of that evil.
He didn't change his views. He acted with great wisdom and understanding according to needs of the time. Just in the same way as the Prophet [pbuh] himself fought battles against unbelievers and at times, signed peace treaty with them at Hudaybiyah.
The crux of the question you posed is THE SAME as asked by 'Umar [who was unhappy with the treaty] while Prophet [pbuh] was signing Hudaybiyah accord.
Remember history?
Note to Mod.: The thread has completely changed its course. There are so many issues going around in the same thread withouth any acknowledgement and appreciation of the people discussing it. I suggest its a good time to lock this thread. If anyone wants to address a particular issue among the differences in Muslims, on the promise of objectivity, he/she should be allowed to start another thread.
Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)
because 1)muawiyah claimed to caliphate when Ali [as] has already been elected a caliph ...so he was a baghi just like ayesha 2) There is a great difference between a early muhajir like AbuBakr[ra] and a Taliq like muawiyah
3) what justification was there for muawiyah's claim was his original goal not punishing uthman's murderers? did he have early merit in islam ?did the people of medina elect him?
Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)
This is preposterous. . .
Anyone who knows a little bit about 'Arab and its cultural norms at that time knows that these were common Arab names widely used at that time. That is why, Imam 'Ali had sons with names Abi Bakr, Uthman etc. Its no proof of friendship and understanding between Imam and the three caliphs.
Nasim, Akhtar, Imran are normal Sub-continental names. If one of my bitter enemy happens to be Imran, does it mean that i start hating the name Imran and does it mean that I can't name my son as Imran? Even if I did, it would be absurd on my part. Similarly, this argument is also absurd.
It was later among Shia that due to realisation of history and after Karbala, they start hating the names and did not name their childern as either Umar, Abikhar, Uthman, Ziyad, Ayesha, Sa'ad etc.
I should also highlight a bit of absurdity on Shia's part as well.
As it is known that the killer of Imam 'Ali was 'Abdul-Rehman ibn-e-Muljim, many Shia have refrained fron naming their kids as Abdul Rehman and don't like this name. This is wrong. Abdul-Rehman is a beautiful name and any Shia can have this name. It means the Slave the Rehman, [Allah]. If the killer of Imam 'Ali happened to be 'Abdul Rehman, it doesn't make the name wrong.
To complete my argument, I should also point out towards the fact that Many of the martyrs of Karbala [among companians of Imam Hussain] had named like Muaviyah, Yazid, Ziyad, Umar, Sa'ad, Abi Bakar, Uthman, Zubair etc etc. NOW can someone argue that because they had such names, so they had no differences and hatred towards Ummayad, their leader and his kith and kin? If the answers is yes, then what they were doing in Karbala, knowing that they would be killed?
[quote]
Lets proceed. Abu Bakr had from his 4 wives three sons and 3 daughters. The sons: AbdurRahman, Muhammad, and Abdullah; the daughters: Asma, Aisha, Umm Kulthum. Now in the house of Abu Bakr’s oldest son AbdurRahman a daughter was born called Asma, and in the house of Siddiq e Akbar’s youngest son Muhammad a son was born called Qasim. This Asma and Qasim were married, and they had a daughter called Umm e Farwa. This Umme Farwa who is the great granddaughter of Siddiq e Akbar on both sides was married to Imam Baqir. And who is Imam Baqir? Oh Rejectors open year ears and listen well. Imam Baqir is the son of Imam Zaynul Abideen, and he is the son of Hussayn ibn Ali and Hussayn ibn Ali is the son of Ali Al Murtada. And when the nikah of Imam Baqir was done with Umm e Farwa from them a son was born and he is called Imam Jafar Sadiq. Oh Rejectors if you recognize Imam Jafir Sadiq then know that he said Abu Bakr is mine twice on both sides of my mother.
[/quote]
Lets Proceed. The wife of Imam Baqir [as] and the mum of Imam Sadiq [as] was the great grand daughter of Abi Bakr. Very true. but you know who she was and who was her grand father?
Bibi Umm-e-farwa's grand father is Muhammad bin Abi Bukar, who was on of the staunch followers of Imam 'Ali before and during his caliphate. The same Muhammad [ra] bin Abi Bakr was martyred by Muaviyah's orders when he was serving as a governer of Egypt appointed by Imam 'Ali. Check the series of letters written by Muhammad bin Abu Bakr to Muaviyah bin Saghar [Abu Sufuyan] and see how Muhammad bin Abu Bakr highlights the wrong doings of Muaviyah and disassociate himself from the actions of his very own father. [the traditions are prolly found in Sharah-e-Nahjul Balagha by Ibn-e-Abil Hadeed, the Sunni scholar]
So we found that it is not nasb, [lineage] that makes much difference. It is person's beliefs and his actions that make him different from others. Shia respect and applaud Muhammad bin Abi Bakar from core of their hearts and regard him as one of the staunch Shia of Imam 'Ali, who fought for him and was eventually martyred by Muaviyah and his stooges.
For Itmaam-e-hujjat, let me give you another example. Some Shia scholars also regard the son of Yazid, Muaviyah Jr. , in high esteem. He was the one who after the death of his accursed father Yazid, refused to sit on the throne where the head of the grandson of Prophet [pbuh] was placed. He spent his remaining days in seclusion disassociating himself from the actions of his forefathers and crying for the crimes committed by his elders. He was later on murdered by another member of his family for being DIFFERENT from the rest of the Ummayads.
[quote]
Then proceed. Faruq e Azam was the 2nd Khalifah of the Messenger salallahu alayhi wa sallam and his wife was Umm Kulthum and she was the daughter of Ali. Is this sign of enmity or signs of love?
[/quote]
This is a blatant lie. Show me references for this alleged marriage. and remember. . .Sunni tales are not binding for Shia. Though I can disprove from your own resources that this marriage never took place. It was fabricated to produce some fake reconciliation between the two houses.
[quote]
Usman e Ghani had 8 wives, 8 sons and 7 daughters. Among those sons is one called Abdullah. Regarding him there are different narrations. Some say he died at age 7, others that he died in Yarmuk but there is another narration where it is written that this Abdullah married one of the 3 daughters of Ameer Muawiyah named Ramlah. And they had a son called Amr bin Abdullah. And this Amr bin Abdullah was married to Sakinah bint Hussayn . I ask oh Rejectors you say the Quran mentioned mutual affection before (the later enmity, the statements of Prophet salallahu alayhi wa sallam were before (the later enmity) but explain then to us that how did these relationships come about AFTER if they were enemies?
If they were enemies then Sakinah Bint Hussayn would never have been wed to the grandson of Muawiyah and the grandson of Uthman. Don’t look for lame excuses to make tabarrah on those Companions who spread the kailmah over the earth.
[/quote]
Then proceed. The marriage fo Sakina bint Hussain with Amr bin Abdullah is also another confusion of history. It is intriguing to note that there is a difference of opinions whethe the son of 'Uthman, Abdullah ever lived more than 10 years. and some narrations not only give him life, but marry him to the daughter of Muaviyah and then they had an offspring named 'Amr and that Amr marries the daughter of Imam Hussain, named Sakina. . .the Sakina which didn't live more than 6 years and was present in Karbala and died in Damascus. There is only one Sakina bint Hussain [as], not two.
Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)
**
So it is also cultural norm to give your daughter to your “enemy” and that “enemy” which according to shia “fuqha” and “aayutullahs” kicked in fatima(ra) belly to kill her pre-mature child !!! What a “Dastan-e-Ameer Hamza” !!!
Brother , can i consult a doctor, for due to laughing , I am not feeling well !!!**
Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)
So it is also cultural norm to give your daughter to your "enemy" and that "enemy" which according to shia "fuqha" and "aayutullahs" kicked in fatima(ra) belly to kill her pre-mature child !!!!!!!!!! What a "Dastan-e-Ameer Hamza" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Brother , can i consult a doctor, for due to laughing , I am not feeling well !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Through the years of my activity in such debates, I have constantly came across one difficulty and that is: constant repetition by Sunnis. The argument has been reasoned and dealth with and now you should come with a reasoning that deals wirh my particular argument, which i'm afraid, isn't in your post.
Can I ask why did many of the martyrs of Karbala were named Muaviyah, Ziyad ,Yazid etc?
Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)
Again false colouring to the history…Let i clear it again …Muhammad bin abi bakr is a man who take some loan from a man and did not payed back in time , when issue went to caliph usman(ra) , he persecuted him strictly , this man became annoyed because he was in “superiority complex” that he was the son of the greatest of all sahaba , abu bakr(ra) and brought up in another great sahabi house , ali(ra) , as his mother asma binte amees(ra) married ali(ra) after abu bakr(ra) , so in this jealouy ,he became against usman(ra) and started propaganda against him and his governors…he had a close relations with ibne saba and this man and abdullah ibne jaffar , both used to go to innocent people and convinced them about “Wilayat” and “Wisaya” of Ali(ra) as told to them by ibne saba …
He was the man who at the death of usman(ra) pulled his beard , when usman(ra) said that this place was even never touched by your father , he became shameful and left the house… In short , this man was one of the main figure behind the rebillion against usman(ra) epecially in egypt…
And most of the historians agree with it…This is the “BIO_DATA” of this “Martyr” as in Quran is written fitna is worse than the murder , as this man created fitna in ummah , so muavia(ra) rightfully executed him…
Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)
So such an "unjust" and "cruel" man was designated as the governer of Egypt to lead the province? Did 'Ali not know what the character of Muhammad [ra] bin Abu Bakr was?
By the way, what about those unjust and wordly rulers who were made governers of different provinces by 'Umar and retained by 'Uthman? What about the governer of Syria who killed and murdered duputies of Imam 'Ali, who murdured the companion of Prophet [pbuh], Hujar bin Adee al-Kindi and his group?
Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)
now please stop and think. How on earth did you come up with the conclusion that he in his jealousy with against hz Usman. His animosity towards hz Umar is understandable. But why would he be against hz Usman?
Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)
well well .....
so abdullah b jafar[r] son of jafar b abutalib[r] was a agitator against uthman and a sabite ?....funny then why did not muawiyah punish him? he lived till time of karbala
muhammad b abubakr [r] was involved in killing of uthman ? what a lie
most scholars agree that although he did partcipate in the agitation he withdrew and with another friend tried to stop others from killing uthman.
why did Ayesha lament the loss of a murderer of uthman?
and what is your fatwa on muhammad b abihudhaiyfa [r] a ummayyad , son of martyr ? was he a sabite too?
Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)
If the "Shia" claim these are just names, why did the Imams use only this pool of names, namesly Hashimi names with a sprinkling of their "hated" enemie's names? Why don't we find any names like: Salman, Bilal, Abu Thar, Miqdad? The names of the Sahaba who didn't apostacize, according to the Shias, aren't even used ONCE! Yet, the Imams used Hashimi names, and the names of thier alleged enemies numerous times.
This hadith from Zayd's father, Zain al-Abidin, from Kashf Al-Ghummah, a Shia collection:
[QUOTE]
'Jafar narrated from his father, Muhammad al-Baqir, that a man came to his grandfather, Zain al-Abidin, and said, "Tell me about Abu Bakr!" He said, "You mean as-Siddiq?" The man said, "How do you call him as-Siddiq when he is against you, the Family of the Prophet ?" He replied, "Woe to you. The Prophet called him as-Siddiq, and Allah accepted his title of as-Siddiq. If you want to come to me, keep the love of Abu Bakr and `Umar in your heart."'
