Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

Most of sunnis not consider him as caliph including me…

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

So can we conclude that Yazeed and other tyrants which ascended the throne were not Caliphs/Ameer ul Momineen? If yes, then they are excluded from the 12 caliphs hadith. Correct me if i am wrong.

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

Except Hazrat Ali r.a. and Hazrat Hassan r.a, none of your Imams fit this hadees, because they never became rulers of any country, nor Caliphs, so Shias cant use this hadees.
Sorry =)

Celebrating Valentine's day is haram and forbidden
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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

Being a head of the state is neither a condition for Prophethood nor Imamate. The 12 Caliphs referred in different Hadiths are not the so-called head of the states but the heads of the Ummah, the Imam, Khalifa, Ameer-al-Momineen, Ameer-al-Muslimoon.

But if you insist and hold the hadith talking about 12 caliphs from the Quraysh, then Yazid comes at six or seventh [if you accept Imam Hassan as 5th ruler of the state even for a short period of time]

Either reject the hadith and accept Yazid, or accept hadith and reject Yazid and his predecessor.

Wasslam

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

I have no clue why in the month of Muharram grandsons of Yazid start hating those who love prophet Muhammad e Mustafa & his family.
Prophet has already cleared one thing “Hussain is from me and I am from Hussain” he didn’t say “Yazid is from me (nauzubillah)
Do not waste your energies to declare ‘Shia kafir’ however if any of you have courage then contact ‘Supreme Court of Pakistan and file petition or writ to declare that shias are not Muslim like ‘Ahamdi’

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

Br. Ripper why you are asking him. Of course Yazid is his Ameer ul Momineen otherwise he should be in Imam Hussain (a.s) side

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

That hadees refer to 12 Caliphs I dont know why Shias use that hadees.
Also that Hadees says that there will be 12 Caliphs but it doesnt mean one after the other, as there is no sequence. There will be some Caliphs that will come near Qiyamat and Imam Mahdi will be one of them.
So this Hadees doesnt fit the Shia Imams.

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

Salam

When the previous argument didn't work, bro, you came with the theory that those 12 caliphs cannot be considered as one after the other. First of all, I ask that what is the premise for such a supposition.

Secondly, as you said that Imam Mahdi will come near end of times so he will be the last and 12th Imam/Caliph right? Taking your theory right, if the first four caliphs are identified, who are the remaining seven? and how do you identify them.

On another note, just check what different Sunni ulema have to say about 12 caliphs. Some start from Abi Bukar and end at the consecutive 12th head of the Muslim's state including Yazid. Others count first four and then directly jump to Umar bin Abul Aziz Ummavee and others, like Tahir ul Qadri, consider 12 Shia Imams to be those 12 caliphs as told by Prophet's in his hadith.

Where to find the hide out?

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

  1. Narrated Jabir Ibn Samura: The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs." He then whispered a sentence. I asked my father what the Prophet said. He said, the Prophet added: "All of them will be from Quraish."

  2. Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v3, p1452.

  3. Again from Sahih Muslim:
    The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The affairs of people will continue to be conducted (well) as long as they are governed by the twelve men."
    Sunni references:

  4. Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v3, p1453.

  5. Again:
    The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The Islamic religion will continue until the Hour (day of resurrection), having twelve Caliphs for you, all of them will be from Quraish."
    Sahih Muslim, Arabic version, Kitab al-Imaara, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, v3, p1453

If you read the hadees, you will see that it still doesn't prove or even remotely prove the shia ideology of the 12 Imams. Also the hadiths presented refers to 12 leaders, who were actually in a postion of leadership not people and doesn't refer to those who should be in power. Also it should be noted that Quraysh is not limited to the family of the Prophet sawas.

It should be noted that the 12 so called Shia Imams were not shia at all but all 100% sunnis, most of whom were high ranking Sunni scholars.

And in these hadees it doesnt say anywhere that those 12 will be one after other. First 4 Caliphs, Hazrat Muawiya r.a. and Umer bin Abdul Azeez were among them.

Tahir ul Qadri is not an authentic scholar according our scholars.

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

Caliph means successor/deputy. The successor of the Prophet (or the preceding Caliph) should come right after the demise of the Prophet (or the preceding Caliph) without any gap so that the word "successor" or "deputy" make any sense. Acccoding to your references above, as narrated by Muslim, The Prophet (pbuh) suggested those twelve Caliphs cover till the day of resurrection. Who was the guide after the fifth Caliph? Who is the guide today?

Moreover, You still did not answer who the rest of those twelve Imams are? You claimed that Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali are the first four Caliphs, but what about the rest? There is no doubt that the Caliph should be known to his followers, otherwise an imaginary Caliph can not be followed while the Prophet had asked us to closely follow them. If you don't know your leaders, how can you obey them?

It is a good game that first you emphasise that 12 Caliphs need to be in the position of power [ruling head of state] and only 2 Shia Imams got such position so how could other Shia Imams be caliphs? and now you say that being in a position of power does not mean that they are the caliphs, but being a leader is important? I ask a question that how and who will decide that who is leader and who should be considered as caliph? With this theory, even no Sunni can identify 12 Caliphs after the Prophet [pbuh] which are supposed to be followed by the Ummah.

[quote]
And in these hadees it doesnt say anywhere that those 12 will be one after other. First 4 Caliphs, Hazrat Muawiya r.a. and Umer bin Abdul Azeez were among them.
[/quote]

You are brave enough to include Muaviayah among 12 caliphs while you did not mention Imam Hassan as fifth caliph. My salutes!

If first four are called Khulfa-e-Rashideen, what title do you suggest for your chosen fifth and the rest?...Badshah-e-Rashideen? or Khulafa-e-gher Rashideen?

[quote]
It should be noted that the 12 so called Shia Imams were not shia at all but all 100% sunnis, most of whom were high ranking Sunni scholars.
[/quote]

That is most certainly and most undoubtedly very interesting. Yeah if some of those Shia Imams were "high ranking Sunni scholars" then why did Bukhari did not rely on the traditions/narrations of Imam Ja'afar Sadiq [as] who is considered as one of the most learned men among 12 Shia Imams [according to Sunni standards]? Why Bukhari trusts some people who are verified as liars by other Sunni scholars and mistrusts Imam Sadiq? [as]. The same Imam Sadiq who had a madarassa, an Islamic learning institute in Madina where 6000 people were taught Islamic and other sciences?

[quote]
Tahir ul Qadri is not an authentic scholar according our scholars.
[/quote]

He is a Sunni and I have a reason to quote what he says and believes as a Sunni.

On another note, the Sunni references you provided are not binding for a Shi'i. How would you react if I had presented like hadith from Shi'i resources which say that those 12 caliphs will be from Banu Hashim and what about hadiths that name those twelve caliphs? Even Sunni texts have those hadiths but I have to hunt down the correct references for which I do not have time and resources right now.

Wasslam

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[QUOTE]
Caliph means successor/deputy. The successor of the Prophet (or the preceding Caliph) should come right after the demise of the Prophet (or the preceding Caliph) without any gap so that the word "successor" or "deputy" make any sense.
[/QUOTE]

That was Hazrat Abu Bakar r.a. right after Prophet s.a.w so there was no gap. But I will mention again, there is no whre it says in the hadees all of them will be one after another, as we know Imam Mahdi will come near Qiyamat, and he is not even born yet. (unless you believe in the myth of 12th hidden Imam, when according to the brother of your 11th Imam, He died without any offsprings).
Again the hadees says
The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "The matter (life) will not end, until it is passed by twelve Caliphs." So the time limit is until the day of Qiyamat.

[QUOTE]
Acccoding to your references above, as narrated by Muslim, The Prophet (pbuh) suggested those twelve Caliphs cover till the day of resurrection. Who was the guide after the fifth Caliph? Who is the guide today?
[/QUOTE]

Sorry we dont belive in the concept of Imamat, as Shias believe that if there is no Imam, world will come to an end as if Imams are running this World. We have Quran and Sunnah.

[QUOTE]
Moreover, You still did not answer who the rest of those twelve Imams are? You claimed that Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali are the first four Caliphs, but what about the rest? There is no doubt that the Caliph should be known to his followers, otherwise an imaginary Caliph can not be followed while the Prophet had asked us to closely follow them. If you don't know your leaders, how can you obey them?
[/QUOTE]

Who said those 12 Caliphs should be knows, if that was the case Prophet s.a.w would have named them, but Prophet s.a.w never named those 12 Caliphs. So your 12th Imam is in hiding, so who are Shias following now? He is in hiding for last 1200+ years.

[QUOTE]
You are brave enough to include Muaviayah among 12 caliphs while you did not mention Imam Hassan as fifth caliph. My salutes!
[/QUOTE]

Hazrat Hussan r.a. is also included, it forgot to mention His name. He was the Caliph until he took bayat at the hands of Hazrat Ameer Muawiya r.a.

[QUOTE]

That is most certainly and most undoubtedly very interesting. Yeah if some of those Shia Imams were "high ranking Sunni scholars" then why did Bukhari did not rely on the traditions/narrations of Imam Ja'afar Sadiq [as] who is considered as one of the most learned men among 12 Shia Imams [according to Sunni standards]? Why Bukhari trusts some people who are verified as liars by other Sunni scholars and mistrusts Imam Sadiq? [as]. The same Imam Sadiq who had a madarassa, an Islamic learning institute in Madina where 6000 people were taught Islamic and other sciences?

[/QUOTE]

You are wrong here, Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq similarly learnt from people other than his father, such as Ibn Shihab az-Zuhri, 'Ata ibn Abi Rabah, 'Urwah ibn Zubaur and Muhammad ibn al-Munkadir. Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq has narrated hadith from all of these men, and even others besides them. (Tahdhib al-Kamal vol. 5 p. 75) And for that you need to read our hadees books. And I will repeat again, your 11 Imams have nothing to do with Shia beliefs, they are free from the stuff Shia later on attributed to them.

[QUOTE]
He is a Sunni and I have a reason to quote what he says and believes as a Sunni.
[/QUOTE]

We dont consider him an authority or reliable. Sorry.

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

yikes! so when did u get this wahi?

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

And when you get wahi about that all these things are allowed !!!!!!!!!
Yes , we got the "wahi ghair matluu" that is saheeh ahadees of prophet(pbuh) that all such things are forbidden strictly !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Agree with khanbabax... Yes , he is very good scholar of hadees and islamic history but thats not means all his sayings and assumptions are 100% correct.......Niether we consider him as MASOOM **that no mistake can happen from him...neither we consider our ulemas , scholars and fuqhaa some divine characteristics **that they know all past, present and future knowledge that everthing cannot be hidden from them......

Just read "Al-hakoomata_i_ Islamia" from "Ayoutullah Khoemani" , you will see on pg.no 79 , 78 that " Our ulemas and faqeeh have knowledge of everything , they neither sleep nor they get tired " and on pg no. 141 he writes" we cannot expect the least mistakes from our aymma or ayatullahs" Now you see in "aytul -qursi" the same properties are mention for Allah almighty........
So , it is "UNFORTUNATE" that our ulemas and fuqhaas still not reached at such "HEIGHTS" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Yes , agree with you...100% true explanion of the hadees ........

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Again very good response...Yes sunnis muslims believe in the ayat of quran which were last revealed that " today , we have completed your religion for you and completed my blessings to you and choose islam as your deen"..........
So , no further "ahkam" and Sunnah ahkam are needed , everything is completed....And the caliph only runs this worldly affairs , he has nothing to do with the including or excluding anything from the religion or without the caliph , qiyamat will come , no brother no , caliph is just an** ameer** , nothing more................

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

Again excellent in-sight into the history......

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

Well Marbles has raised some interesting points. I was heading to same direction. If Yazeed is accepted as a Caliph then he must be included in the 12 caliph hadith otherwise all such tyrants shall be excluded from the Hadith.

This leads to a very important deduction i.e. Not every 'ruler' is a Caliph or Ameer ul Momineen. Likewise not every Ameer ul momineen 'has' to be a political ruler, for the definition of Caliph is a succerssor of the Prophet.

Now br. Khanbabax has avoided some very important questions. Even if we accept Mauwiya's rule as Caliphate then that makes them 'Five' Caliphs. Including Imam Mehdi a.s., born or not born, makes them 'Six'. Where are the other Six caliphs? You asserted that the remaining will be followed by Imam Mehdi a.s. Please support that with evidence. I wonder why Prophet(saw) insisted that Imam Medhi a.s. will be from his(saw) Ahle-Bayt?

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Brother brother , you are complexing the problen for no reason .........
The hadees simply stes that qiyamat will not come (days not end) until 12 caliphs from quraish come" so where is written "only" in hadees , its clearly states that 12 caliphs will come , neither mention the names , not thier good or bad characteristics , neither thier any recognization , just said 12 caliphs from quraish , so all first 5 caliphs , ummayyads , abbasids come into the text of hadees .......So simple it is that atlest 12 caliphs from quraish will come and never said that only , the no. may exceed.....noir he said consecutively they will come just said 12 caliphs will come......
You are trying level best to mould this hadees in the shape of a pot which is in accordance with your beliefs.......

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

guess what …ummayyads WERE from the Ahlebayt:rolleyes: