Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

*ur apology accepted. *

U misunderstood whole thing Mufti e Azam. There is no need to explain again. I'm sure you won't understand even if I will try my best to explain to you. Cause you are Mufti e Azam and I'm mamooli trying to be a muslim and trying to learn Islam. My knowledge about Islam is like Atay main namak.

Read my post again with open eyes and open mind to understand clearly.

The whole problem with us is instead of understanding things we start thinking and saying or posting things.

future spouse, being Namazi
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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

I appreciate your response but there really was no need for a rebuttal. Someone asked for a general explanation for certain Shia practices and I gave a direct answer without any intention to debate. However since you have such an intriguing article I feel obliged to answer some of the content. So to begin with Prophets a.s. and Imam a.s. are indeed 'humans'. However 'Allah' has granted them special qualities such as 'sinlessness.' I fail to see how that makes them supernatural!!

[quote]

They, just like Prophets, can issue and regulate the rulings of Shariah. They also have the prerogative to change and abrogate any law that is contained in the Qur'aan Majeed.
[/quote]
Sorry. That is not the case. Imam a.s. do not have the power to 'change' or 'cancel' the law of Allah. Shariah is final.

[quote]
This theory of Imaamat of the Shiahs is a rebellious opposition to the finality of Prophethood of our Nabi (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam) and it is a clear conspiracy against the existence of Islaam. This is the reason why all the false claimants to prophethood since the times of yore upto Mirza Ghulaam Ahmad have borrowed this Shiah concept of lmaamat as an expedient loophole to their false claims.
[/quote]
Pretty naive of you if you are the original author of this stupendously stupid claim. Could slash anything with this argument. Could say the same about the first three Caliphs.

[quote]
This concept of Imaamat of the Shiah religion is inherently and naturally incorrect. The reason being that the Shiahs themselves will not be able to sustain the burden of this belief for a long time. In fact they have terminated their lmaamat theory upon their 12ih Imaam, who, since the year 260A.H. has been in hiding in a cave and has ever since disappeared. Today, an entire 11 centuries later, the Shiahs are still unaware where exactly their Imaam is and what is his condition.
[/quote]
What about Prophet Isa a.s.? Why is he hiding?

[quote]
As much as I contemplate upon the Shiah's theory of lmaamat, I am becoming more and more convinced that this theory has been thrust against the finality of the prophethood of our Nabi (sallAllaahu alaihi wasallam) and it has been connived so as to grant impetus and validity to the false claimants to prophethood and lmaamat.
[/quote]
The more and more I contemplate on your article the more convinced I am that you copy pasted this from a site infected with wahabi virus. There is one word for your endeavor : "LAME". Imamate is not a continuation of Prophethood. Is Caliphate a continuation of Prophethood? Similarly 'Imam' has the job of guiding the Ummah.

And the rest of your post is simply not worthy of replying.

[quote]
And i think , no need to mention , the name of this jew !!!!!!!!!!!
[/quote]
And I think, there is no need to mention the hadith where the Prophet(saw) said : " There will be 12 caliphs after me "

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

'All the Imams are infallible just like the prophets. The Shi’ites derive their religion from their immaculate Imams" (Ibid, p. 22)

  So shia muslims admit that they derive their religion from their Imams, well this means that if a Shi'ite Imam made something that in the Qur'an was lawful, forbidden, the Shi'ites would follow their Imams...

By listening to the voice of a person, the Imams can tell if the person was destined to go to hell or to heaven; they would thus answer his questions accordingly" (Usool al Kafi, p. 185)

          As you can see the Shi'ites muslims  make their Imams out to be some God-like being.........

The Imams possess all the knowledge granted to angels, prophets and messengers" (Al-Kulaini, Al-kaafi, p.255.)

no comments !!!

The Imams know when they will die, and they do not die except by their own choice" (Ibid, p: 258.)

Only Allah knows when a man will die!!!

The Imams have knowledge of whatever occurred in the past and whatever will happen in the future, and nothing is concealed from them" (Ibid, p. 260.)

      Subhanallah!! Only Allah knows the future for any person to say that these Imams know the Unseen .............

The Imams have knowledge of all the revealed books, regardless of the languages in which they were revealed" (Ibid, p. 227.)

As you can see these Shi’ites have elevated their Imams to a God-like level, and the Shi’ites muslims say that there is nothing wrong with this!!!

No one compiled the Qur’an completely except the Imams, and they encompass all of its knowledge’ (Ibid, p. 228)

So since the Qur’an was not compiled by the Imams then does that mean that the Quran is fabricated???

Signs of the prophets are possessed by the Imams" (Ibid, p. 231.)

The Shi’ites muslims have once again elevated their Imams to a very high level.

When the Imams’ time comes, they will rule in accordance with the ruling of the prophet David and his dynasty. These Imams will not need to ask for presentation of evidence before passing their judgments" (Ibid,p. 397.)

The Shi’ites muslims even think that their Imams can do what ever they want!! Here they say that their Imams can just pass judgment on anybody! And they say that their Imams will not rule by the Qur’an but will rule by the laws of David!! (All Muslims must rule by the Qur’an and Sunnah).

There is not a single truth possessed by a people save that which originated with the Imams, and everything which did not proceed from them is false" (Ibid, p.277.)

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

The Hujjat (Ultimate proof) of God can not be established without Imam. (Al Kafi, Vol. No. 1, Page No. 177)

Imam posses more attribute than a Prophet posses. (Al-Kafi, Vol. No. 1, Page No. 388)

All Imams are equal in rank and status to Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s). (Al Kafi, Vol. No. 1, Page No. 270)

No one possess complete knowledge of Holy Qur'an except Imams. (Al Kafi, Vol. No. 1, Page No. 228)**************************************************

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

Before you begin to cite references from Shia resources you need to understand and do a couple of things.

First is to understand the doctrine of Imamat as it is believed by Shia, its chemistry and limitations and then reason with the arguments they produce to support it. Most people when they talk about Shia Imams have no idea what Shia belief about Imams and Imamate actually is. They equate Shia Imams with four imams of Sunni madhabs or with Mullah type Imam in Mosques which results in absolute misunderstanding of the whole concept. The comment you made is a beautiful illustration of what i'm ephasising.

Secondly, unlike Sunni Siha Sittah, Shia's Usool-e-araba'a [the four top books] are not given the title of Sahih. The only Sahih is the Quran. No other book can reach this status. therefore, there are many dha'eef [week] traditions in those four books. Shia have classified their books and identified week traditions which they do not accept. there are almost one thousand of such traditions in Usul-e-Kafi. So it is inappropriate and against the rule of debate if Sunnis argue with those hadiths.

Coming to the comment you made, yess Shia do derive their religion from Imams in the same way as Sunnis derive their usool and furoo' [fiqh or jurisprudence] from four Sunni Imams. Is it something wrong with it? What if I say that if any of the Sunni Imams makes something unlawful which Prophet had made lawful?

The Shia concept is that Imam is infallible and appointed by Allah. He always says what is in accordance with Shariah. He explains Shariah and guides Ummah. He is in no danger of being mislead, saying or doing something wrong in anyway. On the other hand four sunni Imams are not infallibles. It follows that Sunnis should worry more about their Imam being wrong then Shia.

[quote]

By listening to the voice of a person, the Imams can tell if the person was destined to go to hell or to heaven; they would thus answer his questions accordingly" (Usool al Kafi, p. 185)

As you can see the Shi'ites muslims make their Imams out to be some God-like being.........

The Imams possess all the knowledge granted to angels, prophets and messengers" (Al-Kulaini, Al-kaafi, p.255.)

The Imams know when they will die, and they do not die except by their own choice" (Ibid, p: 258.)

Only Allah knows when a man will die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Imams have knowledge of whatever occurred in the past and whatever will happen in the future, and nothing is concealed from them" (Ibid, p. 260.)

Subhanallah!! Only Allah knows the future for any person to say that these Imams know the Unseen .............

The Imams have knowledge of all the revealed books, regardless of the languages in which they were revealed" (Ibid, p. 227.)

As you can see these Shi'ites have elevated their Imams to a God-like level, and the Shi'ites muslims say that there is nothing wrong with this!!!
[/quote]

No, Imams are not "God-Like" creatures. They are servants of God. They are GODLY creatures. This and all other like traditions which you have pasted here can be understood by knowing a role and position of an Imam and by knowing that where his knowledge comes from?

Allah is ALL-knowing. He is the possesor of ALL knowldege. There is simply NO ONE in this universe who possess the same knowledge as Allah does. But the same Allah choses His messengers among human beings and bestows them with Prophethood and Imamate and gives them knowledge. It is upon Allah to decide how much knowledge he wants to give to his chosen people. and If Allah tells his messengers or his duputies in advance that what will going to happen in the future till qayammah, when and how you will die, how good or bad the person talking to you is. . .then whats wrong with it? Prophets or Imam do not need Gabriel running down from heavens to earth every time to tell Prophet about something he didn't yet know. Allah wills and his chosen just know it. Why does this worry you brother?

ALL knowledge of Prophets and Imams is, originally, the knowlegde of Allah. It is Allah who wills and wishes to give this bit of knowledge to his chosen. They are creatures and like any other creatures, do not have any knowledge of unknown or unseen which is NOT from Allah.

Hope that helps.

[quote]
No one compiled the Qur'an completely except the Imams, and they encompass all of its knowledge' (Ibid, p. 228)

So since the Qur'an was not compiled by the Imams then does that mean that the Quran is fabricated?????
[/quote]

Brother, I request you not to be impatient and jump on irrelevent conclusions. It always widens the gaps of understanding and make misconceptions even larger.

Generally speaking, Imams compiled as well as explained the book of Allah to Ummah. There's nothing wrong with it. Like in the same manner Sunnis say that Sahaba compiled the Quran.

I will raise a point which first came to my mind when I started reading your post. You have quoted indirectly from Shia resources with no reference as to who is saying these words. Is it a tradition of an Imam or a narration by one of their companions? Is it a note by the author of the book or something else. nothing is clear. It is against the general rule of the debate. You need to quote VERBATIM [with chain of narrators] and often in original language for the other to see the references properly. Many a time, translations are twisted, and sometimes, the text does not say what is being indirectly emphasised. I have seen numerous such examples: Like the letter of Imam Ali to Muaviyah in Nehaj where he uses his own argument to rebuke him and to make him accept his caliphate. Shia opponents have used that letter to prove the legitimacy of first three governments via Ali's own words which is completely opposite of what Ali said in that letter. Anyways.

I have a doubt about the world 'compilation' and the way it is positioned in this particular tradition. i can't comment without knowing its context.

[quote]
When the Imams' time comes, they will rule in accordance with the ruling of the prophet David and his dynasty. These Imams will not need to ask for presentation of evidence before passing their judgments" (Ibid,p. 397.)

The Shi'ites muslims even think that their Imams can do what ever they want!! Here they say that their Imams can just pass judgment on anybody! And they say that their Imams will not rule by the Qur'an but will rule by the laws of David!! (All Muslims must rule by the Qur'an and Sunnah).
[/quote]

All the points I raised above apply to this above quoted reference as well.

It is illogical and wrong to believe that Imam Mahdi will rule according to the book of David. David's shariah had been abrgated by Prophet Muhammad's [pbuh] shariah and Imam Mahdi will rule according to Quran and authentic Sunnah. It is the belief of Shia.

I wanted to comment on each and every thing in detail but time bandit does not permit me. I humbly request you to be open minded and read through the literature by both sides if you really want a better understanding of different sects. Simply accusing and blaming one another won't do, brother. We [individually and as a group] need sincere dialogue for better understanding and not a filthy munazirah.

Wasslam

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

Quote from Marbles:
Coming to the comment you made, yess Shia do derive their religion from Imams in the same way as Sunnis derive their usool and furoo' [fiqh or jurisprudence] from four Sunni Imams. Is it something wrong with it? What if I say that if any of the Sunni Imams makes something unlawful which Prophet had made lawful?

Reply:
Then throw it against the wall as all 4 imams agreed upon it , will shias also do it..........

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

Quote from Marble:
Like the letter of Imam Ali to Muaviyah in Nehaj where he uses his own argument to rebuke him and to make him accept his caliphate. Shia opponents have used that letter to prove the legitimacy of first three governments via Ali's own words which is completely opposite of what Ali said in that letter. Anyways.

Reply :
Brother , i respect very much any religion but plz. do not tell me about "Legitimacy" of 3 caliphs as in nehjul balagha.......
"Legitimacy" , do you know the meaning of this word...........
Ali(ra) , the lion of God , most important member of 3 Great caliph , served as acting caliph when farooq(ra) , the great went to conquer jerusalem ..........., now you are here to tell us about thier "Legitimacy".........Or use the same old "formula" of
"Taqiyya".......
Should i tell you the history of nehul balaga , which false attributions to the lion of god........

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

Is Jibreel ever revealed with the saying that "Caliphate is a "possession" of Ahle bait " !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

or prophet(pbuh) ever said this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOu think our prophet (pbuh) was unjust..............

rather he said "Caliphate will be from quraish as all accept their authority ".......
So , with due respect, are first 3 caliphs not from quraish !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you know thier virtues and maqam-o-martaba that you are questioning about thier legitimacy................

and plz . do not tell us " fairy tale " of Ghadeer Khum !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

I am not dis-respecting ahle bait , we all love them but this love does not means that i will cross the limits.................

Is , in world , the "Piousness" is the "ONLY" criteria for a ruler , no other qualities are judged ......

No doubt about that ahle bait are the most pious ( excluding first 3 caliphs as they were the most after prophet(pbuh) ) but this piousness is only "thing" require to rule the 40 lakh sq.miles vast country.......

Did umar(ra) made muavia(ra) the governer of syria that he was the pioust of all sahabas at that time.......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No political vision , tadabuur , fiqar , atitude , political game authority needed , and let me allow to say , muavia(ra) was among the 3 greatest statemen of Arabia of all times.........
No doubt that , ali(ra) was more on Haq then muavia(ra) , muavia(ra) had a "igtihadi" mistake and he never used caliph word for himself in a life of ali(ra) but wanted only murderers of usman(ra) due to tribal revenge of ummayyad to take ................

And further more , hadees said thet if a habshi ghulam will be your caliph and let you according to quran and sunnah , obey him"
now , obeying of habshi ghulam is allowed which is not from "banu hashim" but the obeying of 3 qurashi caliphs from" shurafa-i-arabs" is "IL_Legitimate" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Brother , believe me , i am not criticizing you, but your comments make me laugh .....................................

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Actually , i will agian say that """""'"Divine Right""""""""' concept of Iran Sassanid empire that is ruler will always from "same chain of family" and the ruler is of divine status , God man , something like "Halooliat" etc............

Ibne saba exactly used the same concept and whole of shia doctrine is based upon these 2 rules............

Yes , if in iraq , namrood was "God" (remeber its conversation with ibrahim) and same family of namrood was there for centuries .................

Yes , if in egypt , firoan was "God" (remeber its conversation with moosa) and same family of firoan was there for centuries .................

Yes , if in india, karshina was "God" (remeber its conversation with argun) and same family of karshina was there for centuries .................

The why not , In ARABIA" ali(ra) can be "Maula-i-Kainat" and its family will be there for centuries !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So , it is "UNJUST" that the" FamilyPossesion Right" of banu hashim has been """""""""""""""""LOOTED""""""""""""""""" !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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You just did not bother to read the points I raised in my previous post. Rather, you opened a number of pindora buxes, took a pinch from each, mixed them together and now you yourself do not know what it is:

Moreover, I did not understand what you have tried to say in this comment of yours. Which wall what four Imams and on what Shia will agree? rephrase it please.

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And brother , since you are new , i hope you have not gone through the thread "A reality , but so painful....." for convenience , i give only i related post here:
Thakyou that we agreed on something .....

Brother , one thing i want to clear to all muslim brothers and sisters that Allah will not ask from me , on the day of judgement , that why muavia(ra) and ali(ra) fighted and who was corect and if you give wrong answer , I will put you into hell.Brother , He will not ask me anyhing like that , He will ask me , did you offerr 5 prayers , gave zakat , kept roza , hajj, helped poor , jihad aginst your nafs and so that .He will not ask what other did , Allah will ask what i did and that what i believe in..............So we keep on fighting our whole life who is true or who is false or who is better or who is worse ,It is none of my business , Allah has the ultimate domain of ""Justice" and let him exercise this domain......
Secondly, i think , both sides have to do some concessions , because it takes two make a quarrel means " tali hamaisha do haton sai bajti hai"
I do not know from which conutry you belong but me , living in ,Pakistan , experienced many things which are not islamic but yet we do it .For example , in our marriages in indo-pak region , we do "mehandi" on first day then "barat" and finall""walima" , now this"mahaindi" has nothing to do with isalm , it is purely a "hindu" festival but now 99.99% marriages cannot take place witout "mehendi" why ? because for 1000 years we have benn living with hindus so due to this long period now , it looks very common to us .Hardly anyone , who very strictly follow quran and sunnah , not do "mehendi" otherwise everyone do it .Similarly , "juta chupai"(steal shoes) ad " doodh pilai"( to drink milk) are also very common so that with 1000 years of living , eating , drinking together , both sides have intermixed so many things , customs , rituals and festivals that now nobody knows particarly about a festival that whether is it a muslim originated or a hindu one???? just as " basant"( flying kites ) etc etc..
Similarly , the peple living in Iran and Iraq before islam , for thousand of years , under Sassanid empire , like dara , jamshed , kaikoous , kiyani , nowsherva , bahman , and the first one was "namrood" in abraham(as) period .Now all these kings called themselves as Allah in manly form(God man) , that Allah has spirtually come to earth in the form of a ruler and secodly , the"fire domes" were keep on burning for thosands of years in these two conuntries as they follow "Zartisht" or Zartosht & Zoroastrianism and religious leaders of these fire-domes had a very powerful authority over people as well as government , the took taxes , religious gifts"Nazrana" from people , people asked the religious problems and their commandment was final , they took wealth from poor people in their fire-domes with a plea that God will happy from you as much as you give your money .They were also in administration and they had a right to "punish" anyone or"relaese" anyone.So ruler also has a respect to them as people do .So this"religious" class whether we call them" pujari" , " mazbhi taikhaidar" or " nazranai khanai walay" the similar as we see in indo -pak a diffrent shrines and graves of aulia like " Ajmir sharif" or"Pak patan" etc etc.The similar was the case , in those days , in India where"Brahman" also enjoyed all thse "luxuries" and " benifets" and also in "Roman empire " where "chritians fathers" , "padriis" also have a commandment on people.
Science was abandoned and no right of freedom of speech and expression.
So when islam came in Iraq and Iran , the first thing happened that all fire -domes extinguished , secondly , the "government" of these religious classs also came to end because in islam there is no concept of such things ,To obey Allah and rasool , is a simple way .No grave , shrines and people giving wealth to them.So , this was a end of thier rule of thousands of year. Secondly , they cannot accept that thier ruler , which they consider as God in human form can ever be defeated , again anger .Third and most importantly , they could not believe that the " camel riders" and " budhhu" of "Arabia" , which they used to call them " ignorant " , barbarian and "un cultered" , how they can defeat " wold super power " in only few years .Now this thing is beyond thier mental limits that how can this be possible .We , the super power , of thousands of years , advanced in litrerature , arts , cultures , architechture , buildingds , domes , scruptures and tradionally so rich people , and how these "tribe men" living in deserts and have no culture and arts , came over us...................
So brother , their reaction is natural .Just think , if Afghanistan in 4 or 5 years " will defeat whole europe and then rled them , although create a justice system , have a freedom of religion except a small amount of " jazya" , will europe not react that these barbarian ansd tribel men of "uzbek" , "tajik" and "pakhtun" , living for centuries into mountainns and fighting over each other , cvulturally illeterate now become our ruler , the ruler of Europe , a centre of culture , arts and architechture so it was a natural behaviour of " iran" and " iaqi" people of that time .And this was the beginning of """" Clash between Arabian and Persian nationalism""""""""""""" .And the "religious" leades of fire-domes added fire to the fuel becuse they had lost thier rule .Abdullah ibne Saba , a cunning jewish , came to medina , obseved all this , then came back to egypt anf "kufa" and used all these points in his favour and and burnt such a huge flame of fire of revenge , misconceptions and hatred thar , everything disappeared into it and this also happened because some "umayyad" caliphs preached"Arabian nationalism" and showed hatred towards "persians" and "ajum" but the ultimate loss was to all muslims................
Psychologically , he played with the psyche of iranis and iraqis that who , thousands of years , have been experiencing their ruler as "god" or say it " autar " or "duata" etc.. and other thing that in persian empire , the next ruler is the closest relative of previou one and their always continued a chain of a same family ruling for thousands of years and like above i discussed about " mehaendi" in indo-pak , these two concepts are so common for iranis and iraqis that they accepted it at once that is "every prophet has a ""wasi"" and the wasi of muhammad )peace be upon him) is hazrat ali(ra) and secondly the ruler is appointed from God or himself in human form , so to obey him as like a god .Abdullah ibne Saba did exactly , exactly exactly the same technique and unfortunatlet he had a complete success in dividing the muslim nations into two .Tose "religious" leaders of fire-domes preached this concept to its all swing and deviated thousands of them so that they again "regain" thier previous rule .They could impose tax , gave rulings and exercised powe sharing with rulers .In "safvi" rulers of iran and "qachari" rule , they gained so much power that they had a firm grip on government , "Raza shah pehelvi" and "muhammad shah pehelvi" decreased thier power to great extent but after revolution , they again got their powers .Now although Iran is a complete democratical country , yet supreme is not president , or parliment but"Rahbar" who have many many powers and to appoint army , naval ,air chiefs , disapprove any electrol candidate and final ruling will be his. I am not critising anyone but just telling from history . You have observed that we use word "ayt" for verses of quran which mean "nishani" or "symbol" , the same word shia muslims use for their grand ulema" ayoutullah" means " nishani of Allah" that shows they consider them and their rulings from God , a very high place , something from divine and God's connection and to disobey them means you have disobeyed the god almighty . Just read "Al-hakoomata_i_ Islamia" from "Ayoutullah Khoemani" , you will see on pg.no 79 , 78 that " Our ulemas and faqeeh have knowledge of everything , they neither sleep nor they get tired " and on pg no. 141 he writes" we cannot expect the least mistakes from our aymma or ayatullahs" Now you see in "aytul -qursi" the same properties are mention for Allah almighty.
It is very unfortunate that abdullah ibne saba got the weak point and we easily fell prey to it ...................

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Just analyse what I had said and what you have spilt. . .Gosh man its unbelievable.

How the concept of Taqaiyyah came into play here?

I ask you to pin point any battle after the death of Proaphet till the battles of Ali's caliphate in which 'Ali participated either as a commander or as a soldier? If you can't find out any I request you to find out in history that what happend to "LION OF GOD" who fought with Prophet and killed hundreds of enemies of God and who also fought and killed thousands of enemies of God when he was old. Why the same LION OF GOD sat in home for nearly 25 years.

Also, find out for me that why the person who was regularly appointed by the Prophet as his deputy and governer of various provinces did not assume governship of any province for 25 years? wasn't he the same ALI? or is there some other game going on at that time?

btw, who told you that 'Ali was acting caliph when Umer went to Jerusalem?

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This is a classical example when you DO NOT want to hear about something and deem it to be false without checking the proofs. Its the reaction of the people who have sealed hearts bro.

You call Ghadeer a Fairy tale?

have you ever read YOUR OWN BOOKS? The Sunni book? Have the checked the frequency with which Ghadeer is transmitted in Sunni books? Have you bothered to check the transmitters of the event? Have you ever tried to read what your scholar Dr. Tahir-ul-Qadri has to say about Ghadeer?

Find out all these answers and you will never call ghadeer a fairy tale.

And yes, Allah and the Prophet [pbuh] said that Imamate is for Ali and his progeny. . .which is the progeny of the Prophet, and that is why we believe in it. It is as simple as it is bro.

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There is also an authentic hadith in Sunni resources that therw will be 12 caliphs after me and all of them will be form Banu Hashim.

If another version says that all of them will be from Quraysh, even then this version helps the 'Banu Hashim' version and strengthen Shia stane. while on the other hand, the 'Banu Hashim' version destroys the caliphate of first three. . .

[quote]
Brother , believe me , i am not criticizing you, but your comments make me laugh .....................................
[/quote]

To be honest my dear brother. . . Its the other way round! :)

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This argument certainly goes against your own standards.

If you think its "unjust" that caliphate is only for 'Ali's family, then how do you see that hadith [which you believe to be true] that all caliphs will be from Quraysh? Why on earth, should all caliphs had to be from Quraysh? Why any Irani or Egyptian couldn't be Caliph?

Was it Qurayshi hegemony?

Similarly, why all the major prophets had to be from Prophet Abraham's family? The Prophet [pbuh] was from Ishmael's and not from Isaac's? Why on earth The seal of the Prophets, the last and final Messenger, Khatam-al-mursaleen, Muhammad-e-Mustafaa ibn-e-Abdullah was born in Banu Hashim. Why not in Banu Umayyah?

:D

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

When in 1857 , british came in indo-pak to rule as a whole muslims oppose them while hindu in general supported or atleast stayed nuetral....One writer wrote a beautiful thing that muslims were like a child of 3 or 4b years who have just recently stop drinking thier mother milk , and they know the taste and nourishment of it while hindus were like old aged men of 80 or90 that have long ago forgotten that taste that once they had in thier childhood ..........means that muslims were thereto rule about a 1000 years while hindus were out of government from a 1000 years , so for hindus , the only thing happened is "change" of "Masters"...............while for muslims it was very depressive as to """""""leave""""""" the government...............
Now , brother , exactly same analogy is applied to this fact also.....Banu ummayad , banu hashim and banu makhzoom were old-time rivals of eachm other .Before prophet and sometime before prophet(pbuh) ,the banu hashim has a firm control over the city makkah , abdul mutlib was chief of makkah , banu hashim gave water to hajjis , they were the custoodians of various rituals associated woith kaaba and they had previously ummaya were doing all this but now banu hashim were there...banu makhzoom was also there in the race , very rich tribe , whoseleader was waleed , father of khalid bin waleed(ra) , but latter makhzoom was at third place and the main competion remained with umaayah and banu hashim..........

                  Now , when prophet(pbuh) came banu hasim were still in power and the greatest honour of prophethood came in thier family so it was "Sonay Par Suhaga" for banu hashim and do you know , many tribal leader like waleed and abu jahal , only , not accepted islam because of the reason why prophethood came in banu hashim family!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                    So , banu hasim , dueto leadership of makkah and nowdue to prophethood , now reached at a poit of "High Esteem" and some sort of being "Superiority Attitude" ....... and i am not just telling tales but a facts from history ...Remember when prophet(pbuh) ordered the zainab(ra) to marry his so-called son(moo bola baita) zaid bin harris(ra) , she atfirst totally refused the orders of prophet(pbuh) by saying how i , the daughter of most respectable tribe of quraish , can marry a slave, despite that prophet(pbuh) was made him his son and ordered  it  personally to zainab(ra) but latter on prophet(pbuh) advice and his brother also advised her , she married but you know , latter zainab(ra) and zaid bin harris(ra) never lived a happy life as zainab(ra) quite often used to say zaid that "Mai tumhari tara azadkarda nahi hoon ) ......till atlst zaid gave talaq to zainab(ra) and prophet(pbuh) hiomself married her , as in Quran........

               So , i mean to say that banu hashim were in some sort of superiority behaviour and this was quite natural as being leaders of makkah and last prophethood was also in them...Remember , madina jews were waiting anxiously for a last prophet but they thought it was from them but when they heard that he was from quraish , they just refused him and opposed him bitterly , though they knew fully that this was the last messenger as given in Torah and other jewish scriptures.............

So , brother , you see how the "Tribal jealousy ", nationalism and "Family " nameand attitude showed all these behaviours !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

So when propet(pbuh) last time came , just 3 days before his death , abbas(ra) the uncle of prophet(pbuh) asked ali(ra) coming out of prophet(pbuh) that how were they , ali(ra) replied today , he is good , abbas(ra) said , """"""""""""""""""""""""""By God , you will be ghulam after 3 days """"""""""""
i can detect the faces of dying banu hashim so let go to prophet(pbuh) and ask him about the successor of prophet(pbuh) , that is if it will be from"US" , then well and good , and if not , then we will request the prophet (pbuh) that the successor should take care of ahle -bait.Akli(ra) replied , O uncle , i will never go to prophet(pbuh) , if he denied me , then by god , no one will make us caliph to the day of judgement"
so , it clearly means that ali(ra) himself was doubt about his succession so that he neglected to go to prophet(pbuh) as prophet(pbuh) in last days made abu bakr(ra) the imams of 17 salats(nmamazs) , the greatest pillar of islam and last year made him " ammer-ul-hajjaj" to go to makkah to perform hajj.......everyone know that who will be the successor of prophet(pbuh).....

not only friend , even enemies know this fact fully...Remember in battle of Uhad , in 3 hijri , when there was no chances of prophet(pbuh) death , when muslims were in hiding in mountain after the defeat , abu sufyan(ra) came to them and shouted , if muhammad(pbuh) alive, no one spoke as prophet(pbuh) ordered to keep quite then he shouted** if abubakr(ra) alive , again silence , then he shouted if umar(ra) alive so umar(ra) with his usual enthusiam shouted , o enemy of allah , we are alive..................**

** Now , tell me, right in 3 higri , far from prophet(pbuh) death , who told the most staunch opponent of muhammad(pbuh) to call these names "IN the Same Sequence .......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!**

Furthermore , when makkans broke truce of hudaibia in 8 higri , and abu sfyan(ra) came to again sign itt , prophet(pbuh) gave no replied him , right after that , he went to abu bakr(ra) , he also not replied , he went to umar(ra) , no reply , then to usman(ra), same , and finally to ali(ra) and he also did not give any response...............

** Now , tell me if some "wahi" was reveled upon abu sufyan(ra) to went to these people number wise........!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!**

** My brother, i am quoting from authentic history not abc like history.......... and from bukhari ....... but real probleb is that you deny all the facts that contrdicts your superficialsbeliefs.................**

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

So as result , at prophet (pbuh) death , in banu saqifa, all ansars and muhajireen **unanimously elected abu bakr(ra) and in **ali(ra) house leaders of banu hashim were also there and when they heard that a person from a "LOWER TRIBE " has been elected , they showed some bitter response to it , zubair(ra) snatched his sword , but due to umar(ra) and many sahabas put into the matter to cool down them , they accepted the unanimous decision... And this response is quite natural as they were now deprived of thier "Long time rule of Makkah and now , almost whole of arabia """""
due to Fidak dispute , some misconception arose between ali(rra) and abu bakr(ra) but after the death of fatima(ra) , abu bakr(ra) came to ali(ra) home for condolence , there abu bakr(ra) gave the virtues of ali(ra) and ali(ra) also praised the virtues of abu bakr(ra) and abu bakr(ra) said that , i respect you ali(ra) very much but due to prople gathering in banu hashim daily , a fitna can arise so ali(ra) , accepted the caliphate of abu bakR(ra) and all misconceptions between these two greatest personalities of islam vanished at all...................................................................................................

it is all from authentic history which i quoted and rest is all " fairy tales" which are usually written and read for the gatherings of majlis for "**Nala -o- aaho- buka" **and **Roona rulana purpose **nothing else !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So the qusetion why ali(ra) did not take part in battles of islam , i cannot even say a single word against , the lion of God , just i can say that it was the same Policy of non-cooperation and superiority attitudes of banu hashim of being considered themselves most worthy of caliphateof ummah while prophet(pbuh) never by his wordings or actions said this about ahle bait....

** Again , i will say it if me and thousands like me unite , they cannot reach even the foot-level of ali(ra) but i will sorry to say that this policy of banu hashim , themseles created many problems to them later and when ummayyad took a rapid part in all conquests and govern all the major administration and army generals , qazis and ummals in almost all provinces and latter gaind so much power they atlast politically defeated banu hashim right from usman(ra) to 132 higri when atlast abbasids took power from ummayads.**

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Re: Muharram Starts!!! Some Important Questions to Ask (Exclusive)

When in period of abu bakr(ra) and umar(ra) almost half of world were ruled by muslims , mostly in provinces , umayyad were already in high positions because they took a very active pat in almost all the wars but unfortunately, Banu Hashim , as a whole , did not took part in these vast conquests so in every province , there were umayyads in courts "umals " "qazis" , "governors" and commanders of armies.They have a firm control on administration in a large no. of provinces .Though Banu Hashim took a lead in excepting islam , ummayyad took a lead in conquesting islam and ummayyad had "politically" defeated banu hashim.Ummayad thought that in all the provinces , if they gain power , automatically the central government will also be there , and this is what exactly exactly exactly happened..........................
Very unfortunate is that banu hashim did not get this point and they loose the race . Ummayads have a years experiece of this " game" of Politics.Remember , "hinda" who was a wife of "abu sufyan(ra) was herself a daughter of "utba bin rabee" , the granf leader of makkah , his brother" sheba bin rabee" his nephew" waleed bin utba " all are " leaders.Abusafyan(ra) himself was "Ameera_i_Makkah" So his sons muavia(ra ) and yazid(ra) , notb that yazzed which killed hussain(ra) but he was a brother of muavia(ra) and a great islamic fighter of Syrian front, so they have a background of this and when they got the "opportunity" they successfully utilized it and brother , this is what " A game of Politics" .To hit hardand when the iron is hot and to hit properly in a proper place and this is what Ummayyads did .................
Our prophet(peace be upon him) was himself the greatest of all politicians .Jut look , on coming madina , he bound those mischivious jews into " meesaqa_i_madina" , to lower tribal conflict between two tribes of ansar , make each of them brothers of others , married umm_e_habiba(ra) to lessen the enemity of abu sufyan(ra) and muavia(ra) , married javaria(ra) to lessen the temper of jews and married umm_e_ salma to lessen the enemity of " khalid bin waleed(ra) ", she was his aunt , and " amr bin al-as" , the coquerer of Egypt.When abdullah ibne uby , leadersof munafaqeen blames aysha(ra) and said very ugly words against muhajireena_i_makkah and umar(ra) ask permission to kill him , prophet(peace be upon him) said , umar , will you want the people to say " look muhammad(pbuh_ is killing his own people " so two tribes of ansar also divided if yhis happened.At "fatah makkah", he honoured abu sufyan(ra) that any person taking refuge in his house was safe., despite that he was just embraced islam and previously was one of the greatest enemy of islam , but prophe(pbuh) knows that he likes " honour" so he did it , again very sensible approach.All these incidents show that to take appropiate action on a right occasion , is backbobe of "politics" and this what exactly ummayyads did.There are thousands of politicans today and in past , but not every one is Jinnah or Churchill.........................