Can anyone please show me a simple example from the Quran that is not in confirmity with the "standards" of the 21st century? I myslef want to know if there are any laws in the Quran that do not go with today's world and that are illogical.
How do the laws in the Quran in any way harm us? If the laws in the Quran are obsolete, than have the new laws of the 21 st Century solved problems? Are there no more wars? Is there no more theft? Does adultry lead to anything positive? Do we live in a perfect utopia in 21st Century? What has lead to the degradation of morals over the centuries? Or may I first say, who defines morality?
Seminole, TomSawyer and Matsui that is the difference between we Muslims and you Kafirs.
We believe in and follow the divine religion and guidance sent by Allah Almighty whilst you follow your lusts and desires and mocks at the religion of God thinking your own laws, rules and morals based on your whims, desires and limited intellect are better than divine guidance.
You want us to stop taking the Quran literally just like the Christians and Jews have left the guidance sent by God and your rabbis and priests changed the scriptures to suit their and their followers lusts and now your people are in total darkness, you have no idea what spirituality is and what closeness to God means.
Call me narrow minded or what ever but I believe the message of Islam is perfect and relevant to today’s world just like it was relevant in the 7th century. It is not Islam that is backward it’s the laws, political and economic systems of the 21st Century that contradict Islam are imperfect and backward, it is they which need to change not Islam.
The only way the world can become a good place is when mankind returns to the natural religion Islam.
And of them there are some who listen to you; but We have set veils on their hearts, so they understand it not, and deafness in their ears; if they see every one of the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) they will not believe therein; to the point that when they come to you to argue with you, the disbelievers say: "These are nothing but tales of the men of old."* (Quran 6:25)
“Who is more astray than the one who follows his own desires without guidance from Allah” (Quran 28:50)
“It is He who sent His Messenger with the Guidance and religion of Truth, that He may make it prevail over all the religions, even though the disbeliveers may detest it!” (Quran 61:09)
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*Originally posted by Saif-ul-Islam: *
you have no idea what spirituality is and what closeness to God means.
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Sorry, but if you are so bold as to make that statement then I'll return in kind by saying it appears YOU have no idea what spirituality and closeness to God means. What you refer to as darkness, I see as enlightenment. What you call natural, I call unnatural. You blindly follow ancient scripture because you were raised to do so. While you take things at face value I inquire, study, evaluate and learn. (It has nothing to do with my lusts and desires, but my quest to live the life God wants me to). This has led me to believe that spirituality is in your heart, mind and soul much more than it is in a 1400 year book. I talk to God on a daily basis and I don't have to speak Arabic to do it.
I'm just trying to figure out the mindset of the fundamentalist. I have spent the past several years talking with Christian fundamentalists and have gained some insight to their thoughts and reasons. I am now trying to get the same framework regarding Muslim fundamentalism. I don't mean to insult but to generate honest debate. So far I have found the two to be very similar.
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*Originally posted by Matsui: *
tell me why Interest is haraam again?
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usury was deemed haraam as it was used as a way to take advantage of teh needy ..a la merchant of venice. the correlation that ppl make between usury and general investment type interest is a bit weak.
In ur pursuit of light did u ever thought howa man from such a uncivilized society - who ordered his followers not to make image of him or pictures so he may not become devine and be prayed as happned to many other spirtual leaders be so adorned and loved by more than a billion people and the number growing so fast even today! Yes ur confusing sunnah of Muhammad (PBUH) that was in 7th century and that he even didnt wanted to record so taht it might become custom and cause confusion with later times to Quran - word of God that was to be eternal.. Islam beauty is that it can be effortlessly moulded into lives of all facets of cultures and civilizations.. see how Islam is embraced by all different kind of people..
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*Originally posted by Seminole: *
While most may be living in "peace", most also live in a state of illiteracy, poverty and oppression. I'm not implying that everyone is still herding sheep, but that they are still following rules written for sheep herders. That would explain the lack of progress, stability and education for the majority of the Muslim world..
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Seminole
I am in half agreement with you, there has to be an extrapolation of teh general guidance provided to modern times to deal with modern issues, however if you look at the adherence to siamic principles as a roadblock for advancement, i disagree, otherwise there would have been no golden age of Islam where so much was contributed to sciences. It is the misuse of religion by the self declared defenders of the faith, as well as many other factors ranging from corruption, social breakdown, colonial pasts, tribal wars, instability etc etc that have had a profound impact in a negative manner. is the mindless fundamentalistic, tribal and puritanical ways of looking at religion in some areas a factor, yes indeed it is..but its not the only factor.
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*Originally posted by Seminole: *This has led me to believe that spirituality is in your heart, mind and soul much more than it is in a 1400 year book. I talk to God on a daily basis and I don't have to speak Arabic to do it. .
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the book provides guidelines which you adapt into your life. the type of things that get overlooked are the emphasis placed on rights of the people, known as haqooq al ibaad, which God says one must fulfill. modesty, politeness, a useful life, kindness to others etc etc. Those principles stay on for ever whether the book is 14000 years old, 2000 years old or 5000 years old.
what you may have found is that the fundamentalists, no matter what book they follow only find the parts they can use to grab for power..they conveniently forget everythign else..
Islam is forward looking religion with tools as Ijma and Ijtihad to solve or even look ahead for changing times.. unfortunately Ijtihad door was closed long back but it should be open now whereas Ijma which is democratic color can be implemented to take away un-Islamic leadership which is found in most of Arab world today..
Fraudz, I agree with everything you said. I do not mean to imply that followerers of Islam cannot be successful, progressive and bask in the Glory of God. Of course they can. I know there is great guidance and wisdom in the Quran. The roadblocks are man made, not Quranic.
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*Originally posted by Degas: *
Islam beauty is that it can be effortlessly moulded into lives of all facets of cultures and civilizations.. see how Islam is embraced by all different kind of people
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I won't argue with that. But the same can be said of other religions as well (and some more than others).
usury was deemed haraam as it was used as a way to take advantage of teh needy ..a la merchant of venice. the correlation that ppl make between usury and general investment type interest is a bit weak.
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Then it is usury that is haraam. Not interest. What does it say in the quran? Does it say usury, the practice of onerous lending, or "interest"-the tool which is used in usury adn also trading swaps that is haraam?
My question is and has been very specific and very limited. Does the Koran state a reason why Muhamad has to be the last prophet?
Please don't turn that question into a "can you defend koran to non-muslims, because obviously you don't have to).
Islamabad, I can provide several examples of Koranic edicts that do not mesh with 19th 20th and 21st century living realities but won't since I am not on a quest to prove or disprove any part of Koran. If I give you those examples, it will only further divert the discussion.
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*Originally posted by TomSawyer: *
All Muslim friends (I hope):
My question is and has been very specific and very limited. Does the Koran state a reason why Muhamad has to be the last prophet?
Please don't turn that question into a "can you defend koran to non-muslims, because obviously you don't have to).
Islamabad, I can provide several examples of Koranic edicts that do not mesh with 19th 20th and 21st century living realities but won't since I am not on a quest to prove or disprove any part of Koran. If I give you those examples, it will only further divert the discussion.
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You are welcome my friend! Lets open a new thread about it.
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*Originally posted by Matsui: *
^ One more time!!!! Does the quran say Usury or does it say interest?
Riba-is that usury or interest?
One more time for the slow folk, usury leverages interest but interest doesn't mean usury.
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The definition of "riba", which is an Arabic word is "excess" or extra. Usury is often defined in the dictionary as exhorbitant rate of interest. Interest whether little or excessive is extra and is thus riba, which is strictly prohibited in the Quran.
You just described loan sharking, not modern economically acceptable borrowing/lending practices. If God is displeased with me buying my dream home at 5% interest over 30 years I suppose I will burn in hell.
^ and due to that reason, that mandate in the quran is antiquated. Made for the 7th century not for the 21st. Q.E.D.
Let me, a non muslim tell you what I think the quran is trying to tell you. here goes… excess..corercive..and predatory lending is haraam. Which is a noble gesture then and now. THe concept of Riba is an anachronistinistic notion. From a time when "interest’ was not as important and instrument of finance as it is today. From short term debt placement to swaps, to mortgages to trade finance. Interest plays a significant role in how value is detremined, risk is assigned and rewards are gained. Trading sheep hair for camel juice wasn’t a complex trade transaction. Credit derivavites are.
