Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
Yes this may be true however as i am discussing perceptions here these are marginal facts that still do not change the perception of Russia being communist yet. Maybe in the future when such facts are widespread or an infrastructure in Russia exists to reflect these realities internationally then it might change perceptions as well.
How does these perceptions influence someone.....for example ...i'm a muslim and I live in India or America, and some people out somewhere think that I'm a hindu or Christian, does it affect me or my faith in anyway?
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
The majority from Saudi Arabia, Gulf, Iraq, Egypt and Morroco are mild complexioned. Those from Palestine, Turkey, Jordon, Lebanon and Syria are fair complexioned.
Yes I agree that Pakistan is not an Islamic country per say but it is a muslim country by virtue of the majority of its inhabitants. This is what I had stated, it was not created to enforce a theological state but a homeland for muslims apart from hindus in the sub-continent. Sort of like what Palestinians are going through, they want a separate homeland for Palestinians and I doubt that will come along with a theological Palestine.
so what do you call it in other words? Nationalism?
The problem of Baluch tribes was bound to happen since Pakistan showcases 4-5 distinct cultures and if they are not given equal rights and opportunities such discord was inevitable. Since the inception of Pakistan NWFP and Baluchistan have been sidelined in terms of development compared to Sindh and Punjab.
I don't know if NWFP has much of any resources other than mullahs but Baluchistan has a lot of mineral wealth and there uprising will be quashed one way or the other for the national interests of Pakistan.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
Mullahs= Shaykh Yaqubi, Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, Imam Zaid Shakir, .........Mufti Taqi Usmani and alike. These are all of today's Scholars.
Ever heard of them?
Hareem this is the mindset that gets us defeated. Religious scholars are not ept enough to rule over people thesedays. Todays complexities and world is not ruled by theological values but a lot more. This is the reason why mullahs whether Hamza Yusuf type or Qazi Hussain type cannot hold the reigns of a government.
We try to use our religion for what it is not meant for. In a nutshell our religion gives us the principles of morality, justice, behavior, relationship with humans and Allah SWT and a path to salvation.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
Hareem this is the mindset that gets us defeated. Religious scholars are not ept enough to rule over people thesedays. Todays complexities and world is not ruled by theological values but a lot more. This is the reason why mullahs whether Hamza Yusuf type or Qazi Hussain type cannot hold the reigns of a government.
We try to use our religion for what it is not meant for. In a nutshell our religion gives us the principles of morality, justice, behavior, relationship with humans and Allah SWT and a path to salvation.
People like Hamza Yusuf dont even want to rule.........and in Islam this is a condition for rulers that they dont want the rulership, but people or shura want them to be.
People with beard, pretending to be a mullah, begging for votes, dont deserve any rulership.
So dont compare Qazi Hussain with Shaykh Hamza Yusuf.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
Mullahs= Shaykh Yaqubi, Shaykh Hamza Yusuf, Imam Zaid Shakir, .........Mufti Taqi Usmani and alike. These are all of today's Scholars.
Ever heard of them?
Yeah self-styled scholars. Do they have any international standing? Merely quoting verses from the Koran or a few hadith does not make you a true scholar IMHO. I am more impressed by people who have read and understood Islam and can interpret it for modern times. I am afraid our religion has become stagnant because of such scholars. It's not being interpreted for modern times and by that I don't mean bringing in self-styled changes. The greatest challenge for muslims of today is to find the right balance between their religious obligations and duties to the society, how we can improve our educational, health, judicial and economic systems and alleviate poverty and backwardness from our ranks, how we can ensure good governance etc.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
so what do you call it in other words? Nationalism?
Prelude to it. A nation state is necessary for nationalism per say. Now any strategy taken to protect the national interests of Pakistam by Pakistanis would be termed Nationalism.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
**Yeah self-styled scholars. Do they have any international standing? **Merely quoting verses from the Koran or a few hadith does not make you a true scholar IMHO. I am more impressed by people who have read and understood Islam and can interpret it for modern times. I am afraid our religion has become stagnant because of such scholars. It's not being interpreted for modern times and by that I don't mean bringing in self-styled changes. The greatest challenge for muslims of today is to find a right balance between their religious obligations and duties to the society, how we can improve our educational, health, judicial and economic system and alleviate poverty and backwardness from our ranks, how we can ensure good governance etc.
The truth is that You really dont know any of these scholars. Do you have any proof for these accusations.? If you knew them you wouldn't have said things like these.
So first go and study their work and then try to diss them.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
People like Hamza Yusuf dont even want to rule.........and in Islam this is a condition for rulers that they dont want the rulership, but people or shura want them to be.
Any person who understands how todays world operates will not want them to rule either.
In Islam this is not a condition. In Islam a ruler can take over by force (as in dictatorship) if he is doing it for protecting the interests of an Islamic state and ruling properly. The people should legitimize his rule if he is doing the right things instead of conspiring to over throw him just because he is not the elected ruler as is the case in Pakistan against Musharraf.
Hareem when I read these comments of yours closely it reflects the time gap people like you are stuck in, there is nothing wrong in looking up to people like Hamza Yusuf or respect them for their devotion and work to Islam. The concepts of Shura and other such similar governmental structures need to be translated into a modern day infrastructure without loosing the principle behind it. A shura in todays world is equivalent to a parliamentary procedure or referendum given the sheer mass of populations today.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
Prelude to it. A nation state is necessary for nationalism per say. Now any strategy taken to protect the national interests of Pakistam by Pakistanis would be termed Nationalism.
Was there any nationalism in Sub-Continent? I think muslims in Sub continent were just muslims instead of Pakistani, Bangali or whatever it is going to be next.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
hareem, have you ever bothered to investigate the 'fact' that there are more muslims in india than in pakistan? inso far as i know, pakistan represents the second largest muslim concentration in the world. the only country with a bigger muslim population is indonesia. and lets not forget bangaldesh, which has a muslim majority, did not merge with india. i can understand when people leave a muslim country (lets say a country where muslims are in majority), their political priorities undergo a big change.
according to a quick calculation i've done (and its not the first time) muslims in united india will have a population of about 45 crore today. (approximately 16 crore in pak (or is it more than that now?), a little more than 15 crore in india, 12-13 crore in bdesh). the hindu population, represented by its biggest share in india, a smaller share in Bdesh, and a very small share in pak will be more than 90 crore. (i crore is ten million). the other minorities will have a population of around 10 crore. go to any reliable source to verify these statistics.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
Any person who understands how todays world operates will not want them to rule either.
In Islam this is not a condition. In Islam a ruler can take over by force (as in dictatorship) if he is doing it for protecting the interests of an Islamic state and ruling properly. The people should legitimize his rule if he is doing the right things instead of conspiring to over throw him just because he is not the elected ruler as is the case in Pakistan against Musharraf.
People can also(if they have power to) throw the leader if he acts like a kaafir or an oppressor.
Hareem when I read these comments of yours closely it reflects the time gap people like you are stuck in, there is nothing wrong in looking up to people like Hamza Yusuf or respect them for their devotion and work to Islam. The concepts of Shura and other such similar governmental structures need to be translated into a modern day infrastructure without loosing the principle behind it. A shura in todays world is equivalent to a parliamentary procedure or referendum given the sheer mass of populations today.
And I suppose its not a compliment from you............................anyway, I hope you know the required qualities of an Islamic leader and members of shura.(Parliament)
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
hareem, have you ever bothered to investigate the 'fact' that there are more muslims in india than in pakistan? inso far as i know, pakistan represents the second largest muslim concentration in the world. the only country with a bigger muslim population is indonesia. and lets not forget bangaldesh, which has a muslim majority, did not merge with india. i can understand when people leave a muslim country (lets say a country where muslims are in majority), their political priorities undergo a big change.
according to a quick calculation i've done (and its not the first time) muslims in united india will have a population of about** 45 crore** today. (approximately 16 crore in pak (or is it more than that now?), a little more than 15 crore in india, 12-13 crore in bdesh). the hindu population, represented by its biggest share in india, a smaller share in Bdesh, and a very small share in pak will be more than 90 crore. (i crore is ten million). the other minorities will have a population of around 10 crore. go to any reliable source to verify these statistics.
Really I dont care about the majority of muslims in the world of today. Whats the point if none of the muslim country has islamic law......they even have borders and visa requirements for their fellow muslims.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
Was there any nationalism in Sub-Continent? I think muslims in Sub continent were just muslims instead of Pakistani, Bangali or whatever it is going to be next.
I might possibly term it Brotherhood from an Islamic perspective.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
People can also(if they have power to) throw the leader if he acts like a kaafir or an oppressor.
Only if the benefits of it outweigh the harm that will come from it. And you need people who can understand the workings of a state to be able to make such a mutinous decision. Common masses cannot fathom all these things in todays state infrastructure unless they are willing to start over again from scratch and turn a blind eye to all they may have achieved as a nation state thus far.
And I suppose its not a compliment from you............................anyway, I hope you know the required qualities of an Islamic leader and members of shura.(Parliament)
:)
Acha behna, USR takes back the comment ....
Yes I would know quite a few but would you agree an Islamic leader cannot do much without the proper people around him or the proper advisors.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
for the sake argument, lets say jinnah made a mistake. for whatever reasons. (since both religious and irreligious people can have their own reasons). what should we do now? apologize to delhi, and merge with india?
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
for the sake argument, lets say jinnah made a mistake. for whatever reasons. (since both religious and irreligious people can have their own reasons). what should we do now? apologize to delhi, and merge with india?
That's what Altaf bhai wants...remember his famous speech in India....
