Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
Originally Posted by hareem01: So you are a secular?
yes. you can have an a secular state with an islamic identity. the most succesful islamic majority nations right now are those which have learnt how to do this eg. malaysia turkey dubai etc.
Pakistan is already a secular state.........how successful is Pakistan?
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
well thats different cause it has a whole bunch of other problems and a tumultous history of corruption, bad leadership, etc etc but one of the main problems we have today is religious extremism and terrorism
and how is it a secular state?? its not. its the "islamic republic of pakistan" rememeber
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
Pakistan is already a secular state.........how successful is Pakistan?
Pakistan is not a secular state neither is there Islamic law. teetar or batere wala haal hai.
And what gives you so much optimism and hope that things would be rosy under an Islamic government. All I have seen so far is whereever people have tried to form a government in the name of Islam there has been nothing but chaos, abuse of power, violation of basic human rights and blood shed, examples being Iran's bloody revolution and Taliban's intolerant and backward version of Islam (like making female doctors and school teachers sit at home etc.)
All these self-styled religious nuts (again I am not referring to intelligent and progressive Islamic scholars) want is imposition of strictest Islamic punishments but have little idea how to run an economy, develop the country, improve education and health etc. because most of them are not educated in the real sense. We need to have an Islamic Welfare State first where the rich and poor have equal rights, the majority pay their taxes/zakat and justice is the same for everyone, before we can even talk of islamic law/punishments
Western-educated progressive Islamic scholars and lecturers have an idealistic view of an Islamic state (which I am sure most of us would openly welcome) but the harsh reality is that most muslim countries are full of illiterate and intolerant self-styled religious figures (who lack modern education) who want to take us back to the dark ages.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
GoldenAsif, I have seen you mostly in the jokes forum however your not bad in this forum either. Btw very realistic arguments.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
**(co0olguy pats goldenasif on the back)
**great minds think alike ;)
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
After all this debating, Jinnah still formed us a state on more humanitarian grounds than what exists today. We should be thankful for what he did regardless of his personal views. What counts is that he endeavoured for the muslims of the sub-continent and gave them a beacon of hope.
For all the those minds have gone numb (crying Islam but don't have a clue how to get there), take an example from the Prophet SAW life. His uncle protected him all his life and I do not recall that the Prophet SAW ever showed any ingratitude for his actions despite the fact that he never converted to Islam.
If any of you hoots learn from the sunnah of the Prophet SAW then learn from this example that a person should be held in esteem for the good he does for you regardless of his beliefs.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
GoldenAsif, I have seen you mostly in the jokes forum however your not bad in this forum either. Btw very realistic arguments.
and khail khilari
Thanks for those warm compliments
I usu. stay away from political discussions but when I saw some people dissing Jinnah I felt I had to say something.
Re: Mr. Jinnah’s presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
Yes they do 
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
Pakistan is not a secular state neither is there Islamic law. teetar or batere wala haal hai.
And what gives you so much optimism and hope that things would be rosy under an Islamic government. All I have seen so far is whereever people have tried to form a government in the name of Islam there has been nothing but chaos, abuse of power, violation of basic human rights and blood shed, examples being Iran's bloody revolution and Taliban's intolerant and backward version of Islam (like making female doctors and school teachers sit at home etc.)
All these self-styled religious nuts (again I am not referring to intelligent and progressive Islamic scholars) want is imposition of strictest Islamic punishments but have little idea how to run an economy, develop the country, improve education and health etc. because most of them are not educated in the real sense. We need to have an Islamic Welfare State first where the rich and poor have equal rights, the majority pay their taxes/zakat and justice is the same for everyone, before we can even talk of islamic law/punishments
Western-educated progressive Islamic scholars and lecturers have an idealistic view of an Islamic state (which I am sure most of us would openly welcome) but the harsh reality is that most muslim countries are full of illiterate and intolerant self-styled religious figures (who lack modern education) who want to take us back to the dark ages.
You are quite right....and with aadha teetar aadha bater...I totally agree........
But that makes Pakistan a secular country.....thats what secularism is all about ....man made law with selective devine law.
You don't need to give me worst example.........Taliban had only one problem and that was the lack of tolerance towards non religious people........
And before the formation of Islamic state we need to educate ourselves about Islam.....look at Yasir Qadhi...he is a great islamic scholar with degree in engineering...we need more people like him in muslim ummah
besides........I agree with you.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
....... But that makes Pakistan a secular country.....thats what secularism is all about ....man made law with selective devine law.
You don't need to give me worst example.........Taliban had only one problem and that was the lack of tolerance towards non religious people........
Hareem, Pakistan is not a secular state. Secular in essence declares the separation of religion and state affairs. Pakistan is a half-cooked or maybe undercooked Islamic state. Pakistan is a long way from being secular, I would probably say it is corrupt not secular.
Taliban had more problems that just religious intolerance. Taliban style government was about control and preserving their traditions. It was not Islamic in my opinion. There are levels of societies or civilian groupings, Taliban weren't even in the league of a state. They were more of a farmers society judging from the norms they projected.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
it may be all well to have an idealistic view of a religious state and all but the reality of the situation is that places like pakistan are full of illiterate and undeducated religious extremists who have no idea how to run a country. It is all very well to listen to western educated lecturers giving their views but intelligent religious people like this are very rare.
Given the nonsense going on in Karachi, it can be said that there is a lack of smart secular folk as well...
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
///succesful islamic majority nations right now are those which have learnt how to do this eg. malaysia turkey dubai etc.
Dubai and malaysia are by no means secular.
Turkey...although run by a pro-Islamic party, the secular minority are an absolute pain and is one good reason why anyone with even a slightly religious bent shouldn't trust a secular polity....in the end being secular implies being anti-religious. At least in Muslim nations like Turkey, Tunisia, Algeria, etc...
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
Hareem, Pakistan is not a secular state. Secular in essence declares the separation of religion and state affairs. Pakistan is a half-cooked or maybe undercooked Islamic state. Pakistan is a long way from being secular, I would probably say it is corrupt not secular.
pakistan is also a long way from being islamic state.....
Taliban had more problems that just religious intolerance. Taliban style government was about control and preserving their traditions. It was not Islamic in my opinion. There are levels of societies or civilian groupings, Taliban weren't even in the league of a state. They were more of a farmers society judging from the norms they projected.
hmmm.....i agree. though there are quite positive points as well about taliban government but media always concentrate on their strictness.
Allah hu alim.
Re: Mr. Jinnah’s presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
hareem:
strictness?
Violent fanaticism!
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
pakistan is also a long way from being islamic state.....
Yes true.
hmmm.....i agree. though there are quite positive points as well about taliban government but media always concentrate on their strictness. Allah hu alim.
Every society has a few positives. You'll even find many positives among the pre-Islamic Arab society but the overall effect of the society matters.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
^thats true.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
The massacre of 3000 Muslims by Hindu zealots in Gujarat in 2002 should have been enough to convince those few doubters how Pakistan was an absolute neccesity for us.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
The massacre of 3000 Muslims by Hindu zealots in Gujarat in 2002 should have been enough to convince those few doubters how Pakistan was an absolute neccesity for us.
Why left those muslims in india? To be killed by hindu majority?
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
Why left those muslims in india? To be killed by hindu majority?
No one left those Muslims, they had a choice to join Pakistan, and besides, how many times do I tell you muslims were already a minority in the united india, and were only 28% of the total population, with an overwhelming Hindu majority.
Re: Mr. Jinnah's presidential address to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan
No one left those Muslims, they had a choice to join Pakistan, and besides, how many times do I tell you muslims were already a minority in the united india, and were only 28% of the total population, with an overwhelming Hindu majority.
Yes indeed! And due to modern democracy hindus were going to rule the country.