Re: Mothers are more apathetic towards their children if they were CSDs
I can kind of see Psyah’s point, though let me clarify that I am not saying one group of mothers is better than the other. In the Quran Allah says for us to honor our parents and that in pain did our mothers bear us. So, this pain is mentioned in the Quran and the hardship of it is being connected to us honoring our mothers. It does make sense that generally speaking we tend to value those things more, be they material or otherwise, that we really had to struggle for; it makes sense from a human nature perspective. However, regardless of the delivery method, even carrying a child for nine months is no easy feat and most women develop feelings of love and protectiveness and strong attachment for the child that they haven’t even seen or held. So even this bond that Allah develops prior to the birth is something to marvel at, not just the delivery period. And then you think of people who are adopted, but still they have this deep desire to meet their biological parents despite knowing that it was someone else who raised them, paid for their expenses, despite the saying paalne wala paida karne wala say bara hota hai. I know it’s a different tangent of discussion, but it’s something to reflect on.
Nowadays women who have vaginal births can get an epidural thus eliminating the pain. A woman who delivers via c-section will not experience the degree of pain that one who delivers vaginally and without epidural would. But nevertheless, the period of pregnancy itself is not a comfortable one, it’s a hardship, there is still pain involved; nausea, sleepless nights, swelling of body and the emotional effect this can have, etc. There is hardship after delivery too in healing from the stitches, breastfeeding, hair loss, hormonal fluctuations and their impact, sleep deprivation from having to get up in the middle of the night to take care of the baby.
The degree of pain will vary based on the method of delivery, but either way there is still pain, hardship, sacrifice (emotional and physical) both before and after birth.
Re: Mothers are more apathetic towards their children if they were CSDs
Also, I don’t think Psyah is claiming that vaginal births are a breeze and the only way to go about a delivery as that’s not always possible for various reasons. It’s hard to articulate it, but the way Allah has made us and the way He has prescribed for us while it may seem difficult in some ways, it carries more benefits for us and many times when we steer away from the natural or more wholesome path, we may invite more complex problems in the long run even in the midst of advantages.
I agree with Queer’s post that just because they’re men doesn’t mean they don’t read up on research findings on pregnancy and birth. The experience of birth alone doesn’t make a woman a scientist or expert in this field. And if our argument is that we know better than them just on the basis that we’re women and the ones who go through the pain of labor, then this alone is more of a reason for women to research the long-term benefits and downsides of various procedures and for those that are Muslim to contemplate things from an Islamic perspective as well.
Re: Mothers are more apathetic towards their children if they were CSDs
People like me? Passing judgments? Paheli00 the phrase “people like you” is judgmental itself … The moment you accuse someone of being judgmental you have been the same towards them. In certain circumstances it is inescapable, but let me set it straight for you … I don’t pass judgments on people - I follow a way of life and philosophy that prevents me from second guessing the motives of people … So let’s leave this mudslinging to the side please.
About feeling more bad or less bad - on the contrary - if a mother does a good job at being a mother in a disadvantaged position then she is better than the mother who does a good job because it comes naturally to her. So I’m not saying CS mothers are inferior - I’m saying they may find it harder to respond - it may come less naturally to them - but if they respond accordingly then they are the ones doing the jihad … So it is not what you think …
I believe it is more natural for the man to earn and be the breadwinner so when he does this he merely establishes his duty, but when the woman does this then she has risen beyond what is natural and her acts are of double reward. Likewise, if the results are something to be relied on … CSD mothers may find it harder to respond, but when doing so I believe will be given double reward because it is harder for them. My line of argument here - is perhaps favouring the choice of VD in order to make the mothering process easier and more natural. So how can this amount to making the CS mothers feel bad?
I still don’t understand why elective CS is a bone of contention - I was never talking about emergency CS - those cases are unavoidable and there may be only informational needs for doing the tests … but for those who CHOOSE to the CS - it is for them this study is more pertinent.
Re: Mothers are more apathetic towards their children if they were CSDs
I never said that you said CS mothers are inferior. I’m saying that using words like “normal” when it comes to method of birth isn’t a good idea. One doesn’t have to be a genius to realize that referring to vaginal birth as “normal”…in effect telling CS mothers that they did not have a “normal” delivery can make CS mom’s experience negative feelings including feeling that they’re somehow inferior.
Let me repeat once again…it’s ridiculous to rely on a “study” of 12 women to draw ANY conclusions. Find a study that includes a decent number of women and let’s start there. I also pointed out some other flaws with this earlier.
And there we go again with comparisons. Who finds it harder to respond…who will get double reward, whose mothering process is more natural etc. Why do we need to compare one mother to another? Especially when we don’t know details of what’s going on with her body and how she’s actually responding to her baby’s needs behind closed doors.
P.S. And no, there is no logical reason to believe that a CSD mom will find it harder to respond simply b/c she had a CSD (going back to every situation being unique). We don’t know the details of what specifcaly lead to CS and how recovery is going. Just like we don’t know how delivery/recovery is going for each VD mom.
How about you post a reliable study with a large sample that supports your argument. Let me copy/paste what I wrote in my 1st post on this thread: The authors present no evidence that the brain image pattern has anything to do with the mother’s response to her baby’s cry. There is a flawed assumption that the two different brain image patterns they observed reflect a fundamental difference in the actual reaction of the mother.
BTW, I know you weren’t referring to emegency CS. I brought up the elective CS issues b/c you and another member pointed out that this study is about elective CS. And my point was that we still have no idea what criteria the authors of the study used to determine that the CS was “elective”.
Re: Mothers are more apathetic towards their children if they were CSDs
Actually psyah the women I know who had c-sections are naturally good at mothering too. This is a ridiculous study with an even more ridiculous sample size and a lot of bias.
Re: Mothers are more apathetic towards their children if they were CSDs
didn’t go through whole thread don’t know if this mentioned or not but now a days there is hardly any difference between both deliveries thankx to epidural now vaginal delivery is also pain free. so no point of discussion
Re: Mothers are more apathetic towards their children if they were CSDs
Peace S02
I think for the elective C-Sections - these days the procedure is being offered and marketed as though it is an effort free/more dignified way of getting a baby … However, the reality is that it can be just as tough and afterwards take longer to recover from …
Re: Mothers are more apathetic towards their children if they were CSDs
Actually I’m not a sadist - I don’t want women to be going through pain - that is just cruel. Yes, do what you can to be comfortable and reduce pain as much as possible. Epidural and Pethedine also come with risks … so there is no easy way out … unfortunately … Entonox the least invasive form of pain relief also delays delivery so there is no absolutely clean method for delivering a baby … My intrigue is that during the pangs of birth, other things are happening the obvious one being uterus which helps the production of milk and enables faster shape recovery of the mother. And a whole waft of other biochemical things are happening which fascinates me.
Re: Mothers are more apathetic towards their children if they were CSDs
I find this part of your post very patronising and condescending. My sister had my niece via C-Sec after being induced and spending 3 days in labour. This time she is choosing C-Sec bcz she dsnt want to go through that again. And she cares, loves and nurtures my niece because she loves her unconditionally and not out of a sense of duty. And being a mother came very very naturally to her.
Psyah, the issue is that you must have had an agenda to link this study. Your seem to be assuming that women who chose to have a C-section do so without investigating the implications and thinking it through very carefully. And if a woman does chose to have a C-section, I’m sure it would be for bigger reasons than how sensitive her brain is going to be to her baby’s cries.
I have to agree with some of the other ladies that as a man, you just ain’t got no idea.
Re: Mothers are more apathetic towards their children if they were CSDs
Considering you have kids already, you know what to expect from VB so if you are considering a C-sec, it’s taking into account your past experiences. No one else will be able to weigh in on that because they don’t know what you have personally experienced or had to go through.
Re: Mothers are more apathetic towards their children if they were CSDs
Peace stoppit
Howz it going sister matey!?
BTW … OP post number 1 at the end the abstract states the following that I am reproducing below:
First this suggests that VD mothers are more sensitive to own baby-cry than CSD mothers in the early postpartum in sensory processing, empathy, arousal, motivation, reward and habit-regulation circuits. Second, independent of mode of delivery, parental worries and mood are related to specific brain activations in response to own baby-cry.
Why do we need to compare one mother to another? Especially when we don’t know details of what’s going on with her body and how she’s actually responding to her baby’s needs behind closed doors.
