Mortgage- Halal/Haram

I don’t know where you guys get the idea that PAYING interest is haraam anyway, especially when you’re taking out a loan from majboori. Houses cost so much these days and to buy a house outright standing involves you either having a big inheritance, or a big income and you were living with your parents and never paying any expenses and now you’ve saved up to pay for a place on your own. Even then a mortgage, even a small one, is usually taken out in those circumsances and paid off rapidly.

It is DUMB to take out 5 mortgages and then think your job will be forever there. I know one idiot who took out 5 morgages, lost his job, and now has gone through multiple foreclosures. That’s STUPIDITY.

But if you play by the rules, and play intelligently, then I doh’t see how it is haraam. Now if you are loaning out money and charging interest on those loans then yeah, THAT is haraam. But to be victimized by interest when you don’t have much of a choice otherwise - I really don’t see any solid evidence in the Quran that suggests you would be in trouble.

That’s like saying you’re at fault if you got robbed, or raped, or murdered, or deceived.

Islam never puts the punishment on the victim.

The people who say you cannot take out loans with interest on them, are only politically-oriented people who over time in the history of Islam have had a vested interest in preventing a system like capitalism or such systems to grow. The idea at the time was, well if we can discourage people from engaging in Riba, then the system of Riba would undergo failure. Can’t profit on loans when there is no one to give loans out to. It was meant as a ploy to bring down rich investors at that time, who naturally were usually of Jewish origin.

Otherwise, there is no real evidence in the religion that suggests taking out loans if you need to is haraam, and if paying interest or “fees” as “Islamic” banking conveniently terms it is unavoidable, then it is unavaoidable.

Mortgage- Halal/Haram

Why is buying a house a majboori? you can also rent and not pay any interest and still live

Isn't that what the bank is doing? Why don't you have a choice? You always have a choice nobody is forcing you at gunpoint to take out a massive loan

That's quite the stretch. Being the victim of a rape and choosing to take out a loan are two vastly different topics.

The Quran explicitly states that interest in any form is haraam. I suggest you read Sûrah al-Baqarah if you are having trouble finding "evidence in the religion." This has also been repeated many times by our Prophet (pbuh).

From what I can tell you're trying to equate survival to buying a home. Buying a home is not an absolute necessity. One can easily have a good job and choose to rent.

Can you provide any evidence of your theory on anyone who says interest is forbidden is trying to bring down capitalism?

Re: Mortgage; sign of a man?

Why should you rent and at the end of the day not have a home to call your own and to own? That is your fundamental right - to own property. So if the only way to do it is to pay interest upon taking a loan, then there is no harm in that. Your Islamic banking offers nothing much different - instead of calling it "interest", they give it other names. Regardless you end up paying more than the price of the property and someone out there is making a profit at your expense.

Show us the ayahs that talk about TAKING interest as haraam being equivalent to having to pay for it.

There is no way you can climb the socioeconomic ladder these days without taking loans. Taking out a LOAN is not haraam. But handing out loans and putting heavy interests on them to only further burden the poor is.

The Quran also has a nice surah - Al Baqra - on how we muslims tend to overcomplicate things by adding rules to the religion. You should read it sometime.

Re: Mortgage; sign of a man?

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-scripture/275788-paying-interest-not-allowed-islam-2.html

Some excellent arguments here on paying of mortgages, loans, interest, and riba (usury).

I will say no more. Just refer to this thread, and the arguments arguing againt the idea that PAYING interest on a loan is haraam.

It’s that kind of thinking that will keep us muslims in the dark FOREVER. If we follow your ideas, muslims will never get educated, the poor will have no way to dig themselves out of their holes, and people will not be able to own property and will forever be at the whims of more powerful people around them.

So, to the man who RESPONSIBLY takes out a loan to make his life better and attain more knowledge: YOU are WORTHY of marriage.

Re: Mortgage; sign of a man?

I don't think many people can realistically afford to fork out £250,000 cash for a house. A high percentage of muslims DO take out a mortgage including ourselves, it's a secure way of living. I have lived on rent but we always felt like it was dead money, no investment in our own or children's future. I don't think I would have still liked to be renting when having children, so yeah it's zaroorat to have your own place which you own for security.

I think the imams have also issued a fatwa which says something along the lines of one house for your own living is sufficient anyway.

Why does one have to strive to attain material wealth in this world? I am not arguing that owning a home isn't your right, go and do it but there are other means doing it if your life goal is to own a house.

I didn't mention Islamic banking in my post so I don't see why you are trying to insinuate that Islamic banking is negative and that its "mine" but not yours. Aren't you muslim as well?

Sister, I mentioned to read surah Al Baqra, you have told me to read it which I have, I suggest you do the same. Furthermore, its a classic argument to revert back to the old saying "show me where its written in the Quran" the fact is that there are Hadith as well, which hold the same merit as they are sunnah from Allah swt revealed to use through the words of our Prophet (pbuh).

What about the arguments arguing for the idea that paying interest is haraam? Have you conveniently chosen to ignore those? It seems like you are fatwa shopping. I find it funny that you say “your” ideas when these are in fact Islamic ideas and principles. Nobody has said not to educate yourself and live a decent and noble life. But for some reason you feel that its an absolute necessity to own a home and that one’s survival depends on it.

Just think for a minute, is taking out a 35 year mortgage not surrendering yourself to the “more powerful people” around you? Have you forgotten the economic meltdown which took place recently.

Re: Mortgage; sign of a man?

Like I've said, if you do it smart, then you don't need to be bogged down in a 35 year mortgage. It also depends on your earning. If I'm earning 500, 000 per year, then its really easy for me to put money down on a house earlier in my career.

If I'm earning 35,000 dollars per year, then its a different situation.

But regardless, if you BUY at the RIGHT time, and you get a good mortgage, you will pay the same money in mortgage that you will pay in rent and you end up with a home.

  1. The interest today and the interest of Muhammed's (SAW) time period are very different. Now its a small portion of your loan. Before it used to be 2x/3x the value of the loan.

  2. The interest covers operating costs for the loaner, which you would have to pay ANYWAY in terms of fees. (Which all of a sudden that becomes halaal?). And it covers the cost of them loaning the money to you in the first place and the inconvenience they have of loaning the money out. It's pretty fair.

Now if you are stupid and you take out a 500,000 loan for a super big house which you don't really need, and your income is 35,000, then of course, you're going to spend the rest of your life drained in loans.

But a small single family home these days in the US after the property market crash is going for 100-150,000 and on an income of maybe 50-70K you can pay that loan off pretty rapidly. Most families have man and wife working and so their combined income may be over 100K in which case, paying off that loan can be done easily within 10 years. I know people who have paid off their homes in 5 years.

Again, it depends on how much you make. If you're a vascular surgeon in Miami and you are earning 700,000 then taking a 500,000 mortgage out on a home is nothing. You'll pay it off in 1-2 years.

Coming from a family that followed the riba rule to the dot on the i, We never took out interest...mind you we were not rich either....When I was four or five we found a house about an hour away from the nearest populated city for 50K And my dad brought it on cash...It was a 3 bedroom 2 bath...was it the perfect house? far from it...It was in the middle of literally nowhere...but we were happy....and 16 years later the price the property rose, and my dad sold it and brought it a prettier house for my mom and with whatever was left or it my dad pays off my med school bills which is a hefty sum of 20K/ year (my dad says he's giving me interest-free loan ;) - yes he's quite the businessman!).

That was the reward for my father's persisitance to Allah's path...and that left quite an impression on me- and that fact that anything is possible..

But I am fully aware that not every one can do this...but lets keep in mind that both taking and recievince riba is a sin through and through supported by both the Quran and Hadithes, not contested by any scholar for centeries since Muhammad (s) and even today whether they live in the US or Middle East or South Asia. And when we keep this in mind...we have the power to feel guilty and we then attain the power to ask for forgiveness....and Allah swt in the most forgiving.

That said...what I don't understand is this----if a vascular surgeion makes 700,000/year.. why in the world does he need to take out a mortgage?You can buy a fine house at 500K or even 250K(!) and save yourself a lot of sin, and lost money on interest rates. Personally I think buying things on loan when there's no need to is stupid- you only lose more money and pay more then it's worth.

mash'Allah, may Allah keep you and your family happy!! =)

Dunya attracts. Greed kills. That's why they take on mortgages and the rest we all know what is happening today. Fall of the empire; America!

Re: Mortgage; sign of a man?

Because the vascular surgeon is PROBABLY paying back loans that cover college to med school (8 yrs of education) plus interest accumulating over 5 yrs of residency plus 2 or 3 years of fellowship.

That's a lot of money. Even for a vascular surgeon.

Re: Mortgage; sign of a man?

^No it's not. It's about at MAX $250000- I've never heard of a $400000 loan even in med school. But lets say it's 400000, or even 600K. The first year out of residency you pay it off, and have 100K left- still a lot of money. The second year you earn another 700K. save it, and buy a house.

95% of med student in my class got a full ride in undergrad. Most of the students take out 25K in loans per year of med school.

How simple is that?

Re: Mortgage; sign of a man?

and if you if you want a million dollar house, you can save $500K each year, and live off 200K and in two years youll have a million dollars!Math cant be more simple. Simple addition.

Re: Mortgage; sign of a man?

Except it's not that simple. Take into account costs of living when out of residency, paying to support family, family sicknesses, new baby costs, taxes, food costs, utilities, SOME vacation to keep yourself sane, and the numbers work out differently. And high earning docs tend to buy homes worth A LOT more. Because in many states, your home can't be taken from you when getting sued bigtime.

That's also an extreme case used to exemplify someone who needs a small mortgage or no mortgage.

Most people including docs don't make that kind of money so some mortgage IS usually needed. People don't begin having families when they're 3 years out of residency or 10 years out into their career when they may have saved 300K for a house. People in our culture should be married before 25 (girls) and 35(boys) right? Almost no one in the US had enough raw cash to lay down a house. I'm not the one making those rules anyway. It's what we observe. In fact, ulemas - the very same - are encouraging guys to settle in their early 20's when they're not even out of college. They need homes for their new families. And those guys don't have incomes.

The Quran actually says nothing about PAYING interest. It actually only talks about usury. Which is different from interest all together.

Re: Mortgage; sign of a man?

And I'm glad that things worked out for your dad, but not all our fathers are docs. My dad made no more than 50K a year in my teens and no more than 35K a year when I was a kid. He had to take out a mortgage. He had no choice. I don't see how you can go to hell for that. There is no evidence excpet a few Hadith and you cannot make haraam which Allah never made haraam. The PAYING of interest is actually not forbidden in the Quran. In fact, no one has posted an ayah yet.

Re: Mortgage; sign of a man?

And if you want to get all Islamic, I'd recommend not talking about what the Quran says on a topic without looking it up yourself. I have looked it up and I don't see anything but maybe I'm overlooking something or misunderstanding the verses. So if someone can show some proof without making hollow claims based on what they're hearing from other people, which our desis LOVE to do, I'd be interested in seeing their evidence.

Otherwise there is nothing UNMANLY about a mortgage unless you really believe the guy is being reckless.

And chances are most of you girls married someone who did take a mortgage or you will be marrying someone with a marriage. Those of you who married vascular surgeons and don't need to worry about these things, then mubarak ho.

Okay if your earning 700K a year… You can live off of 200K with a family of SIX confortalbly…95% of the world does it even earn that much. And if you cant you have SERIOUS issues. You still then 500K EACH YEAR to buy yourself a mansion. And also a reason why you buy MALPRACTICE INSURANCE, in which physician salaries are generally reported after taking into acct malpractice insurance.

That whole your home can’t be taken away from you crap if you get sued, is bunch of BS so u can jusify you living in a mansion. You can make a jt account with your husband/wife for that and still protect yourself…I still cannot believe some doctors are actually still using that line to justify their mansions…It would be a whole lot easier, and they would look less of a fool, if they chalked it up as a weakness of their hearts, and asked for forgiveness instead of making lame stupid excuses for their million dollar houses, weddings, bmws, mercedes and on and on.

Whether you want to admit or not, Riba- as in the Quran— In surah al Imran “ وَأَحَلَّ اللّهُ الْبَيْعَ وَحَرَّمَ الرِّبَا 2:275 Allah has permitted trade and has forbidden interest
Allah swt- does not differentiate the taker or the reciever. And in hadithes…

Jabir said that Allah’s Messenger cursed the accepter of usury and its payer, and one who records it, and the two witnesses, and he said: They are all equal" sahih Muslim

These are just TWO>>>

Just go to Wiki Riba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. Wikipedia here does a great job in summarizing HOW UNACCURATE YOUR STATMENT IS!!!
**
If you really feel the need to, go ahead and take interest- that’s b/t you and Allah, and I could careless if you go to hell or heaven for it…but don’t give the shizzle abt, how it’s okay in Islam…because it’s clearly not…So just keep Islam out of it.**

Re: Mortgage; sign of a man?

The Qur’an states the following on Riba:
“ That they took riba, though they were forbidden and that they devoured men’s substance wrongfully – We have prepared for those among men who reject faith a grievous punishment (Qur’an 4:161) ” “ Those who charge riba are in the same position as those controlled by the devil’s influence. This is because they claim that riba is the same as commerce. However, God permits commerce, and prohibits riba. Thus, whoever heeds this commandment from his Lord, and refrains from riba, he may keep his past earnings, and his judgment rests with God. As for those who persist in riba, they incur Hell, wherein they abide forever (Qur’an 2:275) ” “ God condemns riba, and blesses charities. God dislikes every disbeliever, guilty. Lo! those who believe and do good works and establish worship and pay the poor-due, their reward is with their Lord and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve. O you who believe, you shall observe God and refrain from all kinds of riba, if you are believers. If you do not, then expect a war from God and His messenger. But if you repent, you may keep your capitals, without inflicting injustice, or incurring injustice. If the debtor is unable to pay, wait for a better time. If you give up the loan as a charity, it would be better for you, if you only knew. (Qur’an 2:276-280) ” “ O you who believe, you shall not take riba, compounded over and over. Observe God, that you may succeed. (Qur’an 3:130) ” “ And for practicing riba, which was forbidden, and for consuming the people’s money illicitly. We have prepared for the disbelievers among them painful retribution. (Qur’an 4:161) ” “ The riba that is practiced to increase some people’s wealth, does not gain anything at God. But if people give to charity, seeking God’s pleasure, these are the ones who receive their reward many fold. (Qur’an 30:39) ”

Riba is mentioned in a number of Ahadith:
“ Jabir said that Allah’s Messenger cursed the accepter of usury and its payer, and one who records it, and the two witnesses, and he said: They are all equal.[20]](Riba - Wikipedia) ” “ Narrated Abu Said: We used to be given mixed dates (from the booty) and used to sell (barter) two Sas of those dates) for one Sa (of good dates). The Prophet said (to us), “No (bartering of) two Sas for one Sa nor two Dirhams for one Dirham is permissible”, (as that is a kind of usury). (See Hadith No. 405).[21]](Riba - Wikipedia) ” “ Narrated 'Umar bin Al-Khattab: Allah’s Apostle said, “The bartering of gold for silver is Riba, (usury), except if it is from hand to hand and equal in amount, and wheat grain for wheat grain is usury except if it is form hand to hand and equal in amount, and dates for dates is usury except if it is from hand to hand and equal in amount, and barley for barley is usury except if it is from hand to hand and equal in amount.”.[22]](Riba - Wikipedia) ” “ Narrated Ibn 'Umar: The Prophet said, "The selling of wheat for wheat is Riba (usury) except if it is handed from hand to hand and equal in amount. Similarly the selling of barley for barley, is Riba except if it is from hand to hand and equal in amount, and dates for dates is usury except if it is from hand to hand and equal in amount.[23]](Riba - Wikipedia) ” “ Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet said: If anyone makes two transactions combined in one bargain, he should have the lesser of the two or it will involve usury.[24]](Riba - Wikipedia) ”

I can’t believe you couldnt have looked this up yourself…It’s common knowledge, that Islam forbids both…or else we wouldn’t even be having a discussion of this, or people wasiting their time with Guidance and other Islamic banking stuff…you don’t even need to be a muslim to know this or deduce it. USE YOUR HEAD sometimes!

Re: Mortgage; sign of a man?

^ i took straight out of Wiki...

And plz dont give the garbage abt it's only hadithes (cuz it's not, it's also substantiated with the Quran) , and blah blah blah....and two, The QUran does not even tell you to pray FIVE times or even HOW to pray the hadithes do that....and I can go on and on but I wont... Ill just turn the computer off.

Re: Mortgage; sign of a man?

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