more questionable hadiths

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

I decided to follow the example of Achtung and post more Hadiths that seem to contradict the Quran or just seem downright strange. I have only included Hadith from Bukhari’s collection, so there will be no question about the “isnad.” Hadiths in Bukhari’s collection are accepted by most Muslim scholars are “authentic.”

“Bad luck is in the woman, the horse, and the home” (Bukhari 76/53).

“If a monkey, a black dog or a woman passes in front of a praying person, his prayer is nullified.” (Bukhari 8/102; Hanbel 4/86).

“The prophet gave permission to kill children and women in war” (Bukhari, Jihad/146; Ebu
Davud 113).

“To prove His identity, God opened his legs and showed the prophet His thigh.” (Bukhari 97/24, 10/129 and the comment on the Sura 68.)

“A tribe of monkeys arrested an adulterous monkey and stoned it to death, and I helped them” (Bukhari 63/27).

“The prophet had been bewitched by a Jew, and for several days he did not know what he was doing” (Bukhari 59/11; 76/47; Hanbel 6/57;
4/367).

“Muhammad possessed sexual power of 30 men” (Bukhari).

Remember, God has asked us to think and reflect on our beliefs, not to just accept blindly.

Zara

2

I am sure that something is not right! Either these hadiths you mentioned above are not true, or if they are then there is and there MUST be an explaination about them to why they are like that!
Only Quran was promised to be protected by allah and NOT hadiths, maybe you have some wrong version of hadiths or something, i have never seen those hadiths before.
Can you tell me if you got those hadiths from internet please , tell me where did you got those from i would really appreciate it. thanks...

Jaawan

Till next time*K_I_S_S*

3

I partly agree with Jaawan, only on the fact, that Quran is the only authenticated book. I apologize to others, but I can't comprehend making an assumption of Hadith books to be of utmost authenticity. In other words, Person who wrote the hadith book or person who compiled them are not "Masooom" (I am saying that in literal meaning of the word "Masoom" which implies the one withour sin or error). So, having said that, I don't care what hadith book or books you will bring in to counter the argument, unless these hadiths are proven by Quran or logical reasoning, I wouldn't believe them. I tend to believe Islam as more of a logical choice than a blind faith. And quite honestly, some of the above mentioned hadiths are apparent contradictions to what we have learned about Islam/Allah from Quran.

Plus, we all know that throughout Islamic History, there have been Khilafats/Malukiyaats where corrupted khalifas have bought self serving hadiths from hadiths writers for the prices of gold coins etc etc. Abbasi Era is one of the prime example.

[This message has been edited by Imranz (edited September 07, 1999).]

4

First of all, we have to understand the difference between Hadees and Sunnat, which i'm sure most of us know. A hadees is what the Prophet (SAW) SAID, and sunnat is what the Prophet (SAW) DID. Now heres the difference between the two. Most of the Ahaadees that Prophet (SAW) is referred to have said are ones that were said for one particular occasion, for one specific incident, or one particular person/ animal, and they cannot be generalized for every such incident, or person. The Prophet (SAW) might have said something about a person upon witnessing one particular incident, and he might have said something different when talking about a similar incident about a different person. So this is one thing we have to keep in mind.
Now to another point, I wholeheartedly agree with you in that a lot of ahadees and sunnats have been tainted, changed and distorted by people over the centuries. After all, its been approximately 20 generations since the time of the Prophet (SAW) till today. But heres my point. We are doing the same thing by discussing them and expressing our doubts about them. We are expressing our criticism of these ahadees based on our personal approval or disapproval of it, and in essence, we are further trying to change them, or ignore them altogether. Arent we guilty of the same of what we are accusing our ancestors of? Should we have a self made criteria of which hadees and sunnat we will follow and which we will ignore because it doesnt sound right to us? Quran is what we are SUPPOSED to follow. As for sunnat, we are SUPPOSED to follow those sunnats that are explanations of Quranic ayats....likes ones about salat, roza, hajj, zakat. Following a sunnat is not compulsory. It is pleasing to Allah SWT. The more you follow them, the more it pleases Allah SWT. But if you have doubts about the authenticity of a hadees, just dont follow it. That should be your final action. But to question its authenticity shouldnt be our response, since we dont have a way of proving that a hadees is NOT authentic. We only go by what our religious elders and parents tell us or what we read in religious books. Unless we have proof otherwise, we shouldnt refute them. We can chose not to follow them, and thats all that we should do.

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There is a fundamental difference in your thinking and my thought process. I believe Islam teaches one to be explorative, thinker, a person who would look at things and try to understand them... (a vague paraphrasing of Quranic Ayat which says that go and learn the knowledge). I don't follow sunnat or hadeeths just because my forefathers have been doing it for centuries. I tend to believe that we as humans are capable of drawing reasoning. We are not here just to follow someone blind faithly. If that was the case, then why are we instructed to ponder on universe and learn new stuff (another vague paraphrasing of Quranic Ayat).

I believe Islam is the most logical choice for human beings, hence, it can't have any rules/hadiths or sunnat which would paint it otherwise or incompatible with human nature. Islam is not only the logical but also the most psychological compatible choice for us.

If one doesn't believe that, its his/her own prerogative, But don't expect a person with an ounce of logical reasoning to blind faithly believe in these "Zayeef" hadiths.

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The Prophet SAW said that 'deen has ended upon me, and there wont be any more prophets after me'. what that means is that Islam and its rules stopped expanding at Prophet SAW. There is no room for 'improvement' or change in them after that. To do that would be a plain sin. If we are allowed to come up with our reasoning in all the aspects that we come across, can you imagine how many points of view will emerge on every issue? And how many sects and classes would that lead to within the muslim community, if we dont have enough of those already?
I think you are confusing worldly knowledge with religious knowledge. Allah tells us to explore the world and find out new stuff about the world...but as for deen, there is nothing new to be found out about it. Whatever is there to know is there in the Quran AND Sunnat. My question is, what is your criteria for choosing which hadees to follow and which not to follow? and doesnt the fact that you have a criteria make it a hypocrisy, since we have been told to follow sunnat without any prejudice?
BTW....i dont know about all the ahadees that Zaraatif mentioned above..but the one about Prophet SAW being bewitched about a jew...its very true.. He SAW was bewitched by the wife of a jew who had cast some spell on him by tying 11 knots on a string. The Prophet SAW prayed to Allah SWT to rid him of this state, since the Prophet SAW was in an uneasy state for a few days...and it was then that Allah SWT revelated the last 2 surahs in the Holy Quran..Sura Falaq, and Sura Naas. A riwayat says that when Hazrat Jibraeel came and recited these two surahs, which total 11 ayats, all 11 knots in the string opened up and the spell was cancelled.
Whats true is what Allah knows, and may he forgive me for anything wrong that i may have said.

7

Well first of all, before one starts rendering judgements, it is prudent to read the doubtful ahadiths in their full context. Just assuming some thing, without knowing the context, is not mature sign. One has to get the book of that particular compiler and read.

I tend to agree with Imranz. And that is exactly why we have al-Ijma and al-Ijtihad, which are the second two source of Islamic law. It has rendered very useful verdicts to meet the need of the time.

8

First of all, I did mention the criteria that I believe is good in one of the other threads for judging the validity of hadiths/sunnat sayings. Secondly, having a criteria is not indicative of being hypocrate merely because Prophet is not with us, hence, the logical thinking would be to have some sort of frame or judging factor to analyze the hadiths/sunnat.

Anyone with just a preliminary information of Islamic histor would be able to tell you that hadiths/Sunnat sayings have been written for, sold to, khalifahs of different centuries just so that they can use Prophet's name to justify their deeds. A mere glimpse in the Abbasi era would be a enough proof.

Secondly, I can agree with you that Prophet sunnat is enough, BUT who is there to tell me the validity of sayings that have been quote over the centuries by people whose own character was in doubt. In other words, would you believe a saying being related to Prophet without analyzing the quoting source?? Just because it was quoted by someone back couple of centuries doesn't make it "holy" in my eyes. My belief is that Quran and Prophet can't be different. Prophet have performed what is written in Quran. In other words, Prophet was the practical example of what Quran is teaching us.

So, it is natural to judge sunnat/hadiths in light of Quran, And if there is fundamental difference, than it can be either one of two things:

  1. Hadith/Sunnat saying is fabricated or "Zayeef".

OR

  1. God forbids, something is wrong with Quran as it doesn't align with hadith. Which is against the very essence of being muslim. As muslim, we believe in the validity of Quran and it being the word of Allah.
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Imran,

Good post and some really good points which we should all take on board when analsying this topic.

I would only add that anything from God is divenely protected and does not contain any contradictions - that should point us all in the direction of studying the Quran. Anything else is pure conjecture.

Akif - Do you really think a jewess would have some kind of effect on the prophet of Allah? There is also a hadith which states that the prophet was told about punsishment in the grave by a jewess, apparently the prophet started to pray day and night asking Allah for his mercy when it comes to punishment in the grave. - I just can't accept this as it goes against the Quranic principles and degrades our prophet. The best hadith is the holy Quran.

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Where is ZARA, zara i asked we want/I want to know where did you got those hadiths? Internet? Book? ...? where please tell us thank you, im waiting!

Jaawan

Till next time*K_I_S_S*

11

Cammille. There is a background to each and every ayat that Allah SWT revealed to the Prophet SAW. You just have to look for that background in Islamic books. Anyway....my only point is, one cant negate a hadees just because it doesnt sound right to us or we dont like the content, or we, with our very limited knowledge or Quran and Sunnat, cannot relate a hadees to its roots in the Quran. Its like being innocent till proven guilty. If a religious elder or a parent or an islamiyat teacher tells us a hadees, we are to hold it true unless we have proof that its not true. But to just negate it because it doesnt sound right to us it wrong from what i have learned about deen-e-islam. I agree that a lot of ahadees that we read sound "wrong" to us...but then again, we dont always know the background, the reasoning, or the philosophy behind it. If I am acting on a hadees that was passed on to me by my elders, and that hadees is indeed incorrect, then obviously someone down the chain of 20 or so generations is guilty of changing it...not me. And that person will get the gunah for it, not me. I am only following Allah's SWT and Prophet's SAW orders by obeying those elders of mine who are richer in knowledge than I am. The only thing that bothers me brings me back to the point i mentioned a couple of times earlier. I mean, the criteria on which we choose ahadees and sunnah, if we are indeed meant to choose. What is it that makes you pray 5 times a day, and what is it that makes u pray 4 rakats for fajr, and etc...and who is it that we follow when we read sura fatiha in each rakat etc. Who tells us how to make rukoo~ and sujood? All these are Prophets SAW teachings. Quran doesnt tell us all these details. So under what reasoning do we chose to follow these sunnats, and ignore others? I am not at all learned in this department, but my opinion about it is, that we are not supposed to refute any ahadees or sunnats. Whether or not we follow them is a different matter. Ahadees and sunnats are not obligatory, and its all about extra sawab. The more we follow them, the more the sawab. Now if we simply dont follow them, that wont be so bad, because we would just be missing out on sawab. But if we go out of our way to refute them and call them incorrect, or a lie, then we are committing a gunah..a heavy one at that. Thats all my point is. I mean, what if indeed some of the ahadees that we doubt are true? The blame would lie upon us for negating them without any proof. So thats all i ask for.. a proof..and if we dont have any, we should refrain from doubting it. We can chose not to follow it, but dont doubt it.

12

What you are expressing is your opinion, so are the other people. Some think that weak/not-making-sense hadiths should be analyzed for the reason of being associated with our Prophet. If a hadith within its context, doesn't make sense to average person, then why was there such a vague/ambiquite hadith there to begin with???

Afterall Prophet was sent here to guide average human beings especially illiterate backward Arab?????

You are entitled to your opinion. but I believe that hadiths should be judged in line with Quran. If a hadith has negativity implies towards Islam or its personalities, than it should be discarded. OR there should be thorough analysis of hadith narration to find out what was the causation of corruption in order to get to the truth instead of saying that "oh, we don't believe it" , but we are not saying its not a hadith.

One's mere acknowledgment of such hadiths as "hadiths" degrades the status of Prophet. Hence, considering these hadiths, hadiths, one is admiting to being associating such "not-making-common-sense" statement to Greatest, Wise man of the universe.

13

Zara, the references you have given after the hadith, I checked in the Bukhari, and I could not find the hadiths.... even the hadith number you submitted were wrong such as 59/11, the hadith number doesn't start with 11 in 59, meaning that most of the hadiths are not there.....

And your last comment..... Well you are wrong there too....
See, we have a blind faith.... We haven't seen Allah, but still we say that there is only one Allah.... We have not seen Mohammad, but we say that Mohammad is the las Prophet, we did not saw Gabreel during revelations, but still we have strong believe in it....

And also the comment could go to you too, because you choose to accept these hadiths blindly without checking for these in the references you have mentioned.....

14

Yaseeny,
Go to this site: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html
I checked the Hadiths there and found them. You can do key word searching, but read the explanation of how to do it.
Zara

[This message has been edited by zaraatif (edited September 09, 1999).]

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In response of your third hadith reegarding the killing of children and woman here is the hadith

*Bukhari Volume 9, Book 89, Number 320: *

*Narrated 'Ubada bin As-Samit:

Allah's Apostle said to us while we were in a gathering, "Give me the oath (Pledge of allegiance for: (1) Not to join anything in worship along with Allah, (2) Not to steal, (3) Not to commit illegal sexual intercourse, (4) Not to kill your children, (5) Not to accuse an innocent person (to spread such an accusation among people), (6) Not to be disobedient (when ordered) to do good deeds. The Prophet added: Whoever amongst you fulfill his pledge, his reward will be with Allah, and whoever commits any of those sins and receives the legal punishment in this world for that sin, then that punishment will be an expiation for that sin, and whoever commits any of those sins and Allah does not expose him, then it is up to Allah if He wishes He will punish him or if He wishes, He will forgive him." So we gave the Pledge for that. (See Bukhari Hadith No. 17, Vol. 1) *

And next time please try to follow a good example.....

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I checked the site, the references you gave are not comprehendable....

For the first hadith book number 76 is on Al-Riqaq, ie Tender Heart, and the hadith number starts with 421 but you gave 53...

For the second hadith book number 8 is about Salat, and the hadith number starts with 345 but you gave 102..... Also this for everyone, that noone should pass in front of the praying person, this hadith was said one occassion, and there are several other hadiths that say that noone should pass, but you never bothered to check.. and your hadith you said monkey, it was not monkey but donkey, I don't think there were monkeys in Arabia at that time..... And I found the hadith in *Bukhari Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490: *

*Narrated 'Aisha:

The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away. for I disliked to face him." *

The third hadith I already gave the reply

For the fourth hadith book number 97 is nowhere to be found while Book 10 is about Prayer Times, and the hadith number starts with 500 and you gave 129...

For the fifth hadith book number 63 is about Divorce, and the hadith number starts with 421 but you gave 53...

For the fifth hadith book number 59 is on Milatry Expeditions of Mohammad[SWT], and the hadith number starts with 285 but you gave 11...

and about the last hadith, you did not had any reference, but the site you gave had the reference numbers...... You could atleast check it yourself....

17

Nice discussion, everyone, I have enjoyed reading your posts! My main point in posting these is to show that Hadith are not a reliable source of religious guidance. God did not guarantee the reliability of Hadith, he guaranteed that the Quran would remain unchanged and truthful. Also, God is supposed to be the only law maker. Muhammed is not God. If the Quran is clear, who needs the Hadith?

Jawaan,
Please look at the site which I mentioned earlier.

Imran,
I agree with you that the reliability of Hadith depends on those who related them. Have you ever played the telephone game? This is when something is repeated into the ear of one person after another, all the way around in circle. The final result is completely different from the original statement. This may be the case with many Hadith. How can we know for sure? How can we rely on them if we don't know for sure? By the way, scholars have found Bukhari's Hadith to be authentic, so it is wrong to call these Hadith officially "zayeef" or weak.

Akif,
The majority of Muslims do follow Hadith unquestioningly. Most have never read the Quran cover to cover, and believe that when doing a particular thing they are following the Quran, although that issue is not even discussed there. Hadith are small sayings which, as you mentioned, are probably meant to apply to specific situations. Muslims unfortunately use them as laws for everyone. I believe this is wrong. The Hadith should not be more restrictive than the Quran. This would mean that someone other than God is making a law.

Also, don't you feel silly saying the Prophet was bewitched by someone who was tying 11 knots in a string? Could I or anyone else bewitch anyone by doing this?

Akif and Yaseeny,
Please see my recent post about blindly following parents and faith without reason.

Baykhtar,
I agree with you about context. It is important.

Yaseeny,
I guess the numbering system is different in your books. By the way, individual Hadith often contradict one another.

Zara

18

Zara the numbering system is from the same site you gave........

You know the meaning of the Kalimah, both the parts are necessary for being a muslim that is there none other but one god, Allah and Prophet Mohammad(SWT) was his last prophet....

And you would also remember Prophet Mohammad(SWT) last Sermon in which he said that he has left with the muslims two things Quran and his Sunnah..... SO how can you get his SUNNAH, from the collection of Hadiths..... Prophet Mohammad[SWT] said everything not from himself but by the will of Allah..... So when he said about Sunnah, surely Allah would have done about the security of the Hadiths too.....

It is not impossible for Allah to secure the Hadiths too.....

Most of the narrators of the Ahadiths are the same people who have helped to compile the Quran too.... SO you are implying that.....

Most of the direct narrations of the Ahadith have been from Abu Hurrairah whose memory can't be disputed.

19

yaseeny reports.........>>Bukhari Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490:

Narrated 'Aisha:

The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away. for I disliked to face him." <<

Dear O dear.... this rawayat is actualy by Muslim,in his 'Kitab ul Salat' vol 17, title, Satra tul Musala. He has compiled all the material which is about satr ( veiling) while offering prayers. Satr is something which one may put in front of him while offering salat, so that things, animals, and other mankind, passing across, will not disturb his/her namaz. RasulAllah, saaw has instructed us to put something infront of us, (while praying in open) and to make this comprehend, he pbuh, gave an example that if one would starts praying without satr, the animals, (namely dogs and donkeys, since these were common domestic animals in those time) and/or women would pass infront of him, thus disturbing him. But people lateron started saying... as reported by you. And when Syeda Ayesha heard this (after the demise of Prophet, remember) she exclaimed, 'then the woman is a very low animal! You folks are comparing us with dogs and donkeys??' and the rest as reported by you.

so this is the whole katha'a of this hadith and context. I am sure the rest can be shereded apart in the similar fashion.

As regards to verifing hadith and as someone was suggesting Abbasid dynasty. I remember that in the times of Caliph Mansoor, Imam Hanbal was once asked to verify a hadith, 'everyone will see Allah on the day of judgement'. He refused to believe that it was an authentic one, as one of the rawi (reporter) in the chain used to urinate while standing. So one who himself does not practice sunna cannot be trusted to utter truth. So yes I agree with you all that sceince of hadith is complicated.

:)

20

Thanks, Baykhtar, I agree with you.

Akif and Yaseeny,
All I can say to you is please reread the Quran and see if it does not back up what I am saying. God wants his books to be our only source of guidance.

My purpose of starting this thread was to discuss the authenticity of Hadith. I believe we should rely on Quran alone, because Hadith are a questionable, unreliable source. Their authenticity is not guarenteed. God has asked us to follow only laws made by him. Perhaps I did not research the things I posted very well, I apologize for that. Guilty as charged! But the discussion that we had as a result was a fruitful one. Thanks to all who participated.

Zara