more questionable hadiths

Society Religion & Philosophy
21

Akif -please see post below which I posted a while ago but deals with the same issue:

Are you suggesting therefore that the Quran is not correct in its claim that it is COMPLETE guidance for all mankind?

If we say that we should follow other sayings beside the Quran, or that we refer to further details to the words of Allah in the Quran, then we are suggesting that the Quran is not complete or full.

Check out the relevant reference to Salah in the Quran and especially:
And when We made THE HOUSE a place of Blessing and security for Mankind, AND TAKE ALL OF YOU FROM THE STANDING POSITION OF IBRAHEEM (MUQ'AM IBRAHEEM) THE SALAH PERFORMED (MUSAL'AA), and We covenanted with Ibraheem and Ismail, that purify My House for those who compass around and those who are in retreat and those who bow down and prostrate."[2.125]

So, the manner in which Salah is established in the House of Allah, that is to be adopted all over the world in all the mosques and homes in ALL TIMES, in the past, present and Inshallah in the future people will find the Salah being performed in Kaaba and will take that Salah. The number of Rakaat that are
established there, what is recited etc. are to be followed. It is the house of Allah which is the Centre point of the messengers of Allah and following its system brings unity between the believers.
"And from where ever you go forth, revert your self to the intersection of Al Masjid al Haraam (shatar al Masjid al Haraam) ,and where ever all of you are, revert your selves to its intersection. THAT THERE MAY BE NO GROUND OF DISPUTE AMONG YOU, EXCEPT THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSORS FROM THEM. So fear them not but fear Me, that I may complete My favours on you and that you may be guided."

So according to Quran 2:125 we are ordered to take the Musalla from Muqam e Ibraheem in Kaaba. The manner, in which Salah is established there, that is to be adopted. Did you study the hadith to learn how to pray? We take so much for granted without reading or understanding the book of Allah (As Allah says he has made it EASY for us to understand).

Again maybe my line of thinking may be wrong but it will be good to address these issues.

22

Zara,

Like I had mentioned in one of my earlier posts, everyone has right to their opinion, suspicion. I have my reasons not to believe in these hadiths, you have yours to consider them "valid". I think if you were to ask a group of people what Prophet's personality is in their eyes, you will get different answers from each of them.

Final point, even though you admitted the fact that "hadiths" are not on the same level of authenticity as Quran, you are still holding on to the statement that the hadiths you mentioned in the begining of this thread are not "weak" just because of the fact that they were listed in Bukari shareef. Again, its your judgement, but I don't think thats a good enough reason for me.

23

Imran,
You have misunderstood me (probably my fault). I DON'T accept the validity of Hadith. All I have said is that most scholars accept them as authentic. That does not mean that I do. There has been centuries of study of these Hadith. Some collections have been officially classified as authentic, some have not. As far as I know, Bukhari's collection has been classified as authentic.

I'm sorry if I have been confusing in my posts. This is a confusing issue, though! As it happens, I think you and I have the same opinion!
Zara

24

Slm Zara..

Im not writing for the sake of criticitizing you.... but i do want to know how much research you put into these Quotes before you decided to put these Hadiths on trial?

You see, anything that PBUH had said probably arose out of some situation. So if you just quote what was said and dont give any background info then yea sure it'll sound strange.

One last thing zara... dont you feel bad about posting these 'questionable' hadiths. My own faith is not very strong and when i read things like that i kinda become more unislamic.
I know what im saying is wrong because this is a religious discussion forum but thats me.

25

allstar,

I don't want to shake your faith! I'm sorry about that. About quoting those Hadith, I had thought they were okay because I had seen references to them in books before that. I think that perhaps the reference numbers were wrong, but I don't think they are made up. And by the way, some were found by the investigators who checked up on me :).

I started this thread because I truly believe that people are doing the wrong thing by following these recorded Hadith. God wants us to follow ONLY the book, and specifically states this. He wants to be the only lawmaker.

About your idea of all Hadith being based on the truth, scholars of the Hadith would argue with that, since a large portion of Hadith have been judged inauthentic by them (some were also judged as authentic, of course).

My faith in the Quran is strong, it is only Hadith that I doubt. They are unreliable and contradictory. Read the Quran yourself and you may agree with me.

Zara

26

Zara...this is a very dangerous stance that you have taken from an islamic point of view in which you claim not to believe any ahadees. I dont know what you mean by "these recorded ahadees". As far as i know, ALL ahadees are recorded, and none of them are coming to us straight from the Prophets SAW mouth. Do you pray? If so, how many times a day? How many rakats do u pray for each salat? What do you pray in your salat? And finally, trusting you know the answer to all the questions above, where did u get the answers from? What is the source of all this? Is it all there in the Quran? I have read the whole Quran, with translation, and i even understand some arabic...and nowhere in the Quran does Allah SWT say anything other than to read namaz. He does not tell us how to read namaz, how many salats to read a day, what to read in them, and how to make rukoo and sujood. And there are countless instances in Quran where Allah SWT says...like surah Aal-e-Imran....ayat #31
Ateeeu-llah, wa ateeu rasool
Follow Allah SWT, and Follow Rasool SAW

If you want to follow the Quran, then why not follow this ayat? Allah Himself is telling you to follow Rasool SAW in what he says and does..so i cant understand why you would make such a provocative remark about not following hadees at all. If you chose not to follow it, thats one thing. But to refute it without any proof is a sin. Please consult someone wise and ensure that what Im saying is correct. But the idea should be to be on the safe side if in doubt. You should realize that the Holy Quran itself was brought to us by none other than Prophet SAW. Dont draw a line between Prophet SAWs teachings as to what you want to follow and what you dont. You have to have a proof...not just doubts. Islam is all about faith in the unseen. Such posts only instill doubts in the mind and heart of our young generation, who as very vulnerable in this regard. Its so easy for them to go astray, and with such posts, we only add to their rebellious attitude.

27

Baykhatr you found the hadith in muslim, and say that it is actually from there.... But I ask him did you check the reference that I gave in Bukhari..... I think your answer would be "NO"...
But the question is not from where I found the hadith, and from which source you.... I am against the misinterpration of the ahadiths....

I think you all should read the history of ahadith collection and recording....As Zara is confirming herself that she did not check up the ahadith herself but thought OK to just forward it to others..... I think she should recall the last comment she wrote in her starter message.....

Zara asked me to reread the Quran, I would like to tell her that I have read the Quran with translation with Tafseer, and manier times Allah in Quran has said that a muslim should follow both Allah and his prophet... Now if Allah has said that one should follow Allah, it means that one should follow Quran, and for that he made sure that no change in Quran was made.....
It goes for the second part too that HE said that one should follow His Prophet, by that He meant Mohammad(SWT) and which directly means his Sunnah... And where will we get his Sunnah....

Even the Scholars who have written Tafseers on Quran accept that many of the topics in Quran are not given in detail, and for those topics we look at the Ahadiths for explainations... Like Akif has explaines this point... I would like to add a few like 1. Signs of the day of Judgement, 2. Details of Dajjal, 3. How to Govern ? 4.Call to Prayers (Adhaan) 5.Characteristics of Prayer 7.Witr Prayer 8.Invoking Allah for Rain 8.Shortening the Prayers (At-Taqseer) 9.Prayer at Night (Tahajjud) 10.Actions while Praying 11.Funerals (Al-Janaa'iz) 12.Obligatory Charity Tax (Zakat)
13.Pilgrimmage (Hajj)
14.Minor Pilgrammage (Umra)
15.Praying at Night in Ramadaan (Taraweeh)
16.Retiring to a Mosque for Remembrance of Allah (I'tikaf) 17.Sales and Trade
18.Representation, Authorization, Business by Proxy 19.Agriculture 20.Distribution of Water
21.Loans, Payment of Loans, Freezing of Property, Bankruptcy 23.Partnership 24.Mortgaging

Again I would like to say that nothing is impossible for Allah. When Allah has said that there would be no reveletions after Mohammad, and that He has chosen Islam as THE RELIGON, so He would have ensured that all the teachings given by Him and implemented by his Prophet are recorded, for all the generations to come after....

28

Apologies for the long post! I would like to find out what people think about the following article which addresses the issues Yaseeny mentioned above:

"Since the Qur'an says that we should obey Allah and His messenger, therefore this implies that to obey Allah we have to obey the Qur'an, while obedience to the messenger means obedience to some other books apart from the Qur'an.
CLARIFICATION
When the Qur'an says that we have to obey the messenger then it does not stop there only but also identifies as to what is the divine message that is bestowed on the messenger and in turn the messenger propagated to the people. The following verses inform us what is that divine teaching that the messenger received from Allah and is then delivering to mankind:
WHAT IS THAT TEACHING THAT THE MESSENGER RECEIVED FROM ALLAH?
In Surah Al-Maidah, the messenger is ordered to deliver the Divine revelation received by him, otherwise he would not have fulfilled his mission:
"O Messenger! Deliver what has been revealed to you from your Sustainer ; and if you do it not, then you have not delivered His message, and Allah will protect you from the people; surely Allah will not guide the unbelieving people." (5:67)
In the above verse the messenger of Allah is ordered to deliver what has been revealed on him. Or what the Qur'an identfies as "ma_ unzila ilaika mir rabbik". Now what are those divine teachings and laws that are revealed on the messenger? The following verses clarify as to what consists of (what has been revealed to you):
"And We have revealed the Book to you which has the clear explanation of everything , and a guidance and mercy and good news for those who submit." (16:89)
Thus it is the Book of Allah which contains the clarity for all matters requiring guidance, that has been revealed on the messenger. In Surah An-Nisa, the divine teaching received by the messenger is again identified as:
"Surely We have revealed the Book to you with the truth that you may judge between people by means of that which Allah has shown you; and be not an advocate on behalf of the treacherous." (4:105)
Once again it is the book of Allah which has been identified as the divine teaching which has been bestowed upon the messenger and through which the messenger himself is to judge people. Again we are reminded:
"And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you;" (5:48)
Again it is confirmed that the messenger received the Book of Allah and he is to govern among people by Allah's Book and he cannot deviate the slightest bit from it. Now it has been confirmed by the above and many other verses in the Qur'an that the messenger has received the Book of Allah as divine teaching. Now what is that teaching that the messenger is to pass on to people, through which they are admonished by him? The following verses identify this aspect:
WHAT IS THAT TEACHING WITH WHICH THE MESSENGER ORDERED PEOPLE?
Allah commands the messenger:
"We know best what they say, and you are not one to compel them; therefore remind him by means of the Quran who fears My Promise." (50:45)
Thus Allah commands the messenger to admonish people by the Qur'an, and the messenger confirms himself that his mission is "Admonishing with the Qur'an", not any other book:
"Allah is witness between you and me; and this Quran has been revealed to me that with it I may warn you and whomsoever it reaches." (6:19)
Again:
"O People of the Book! Indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah; With it Allah guides him who will follow His pleasure into the ways of safety and brings them out of utter darkness into light by His will and guides them to the right path." (5:15-16)
According to above verse the messenger is propagating the Book of Allah among the people of the Book. Again we are reminded as to what the messenger is giving to his people as a teaching so that they receive divine guidance:
"I am commanded only that I should serve the Sustainer of this city, Who has made it sacred, and His are all things; and I am commanded that I should be of those who submit; And that I should recite the Quran. Therefore whoever goes aright, he goes aright for his own soul, and whoever goes ' astray, then say: I am only one of the warners." (27:91-22)
The messenger is to recite the Qur'an, so that whoever wishes, he can take guidance, says the above verse. Again it is emphasized that it is only the Qur'an whose propagation has been made as an obligation on the messenger:
"Most surely He Who has made the Quran binding on you will bring you back to the destination. Say: My Sustainer knows best him who has brought the guidance and him who is in manifest error." (28:85)
The above verse identifies that it is the Qur'an which is (an obligation) on the messenger. The above evidence from the Qur'an makes it quite clear that the messenger received the Book of Allah as divine teaching and he is delivering the message of Allah as is contained in Qur'an to the people. The above verses also make it evident that the messenger cannot deviate the slightest bit from the Qur'an and all his judgements are based entirely on Allah's divine Book., as said in 5:48. The messenger does not propagate his own personal laws or teachings, but only the divine message received by him, and that divine message has been identified in the above verses as Allah's Book. Obedience and subservience is only to Allah's laws, and the messenger does not make people obey his own teaching, but the law of Allah contained in al-Qur'an. Obedience to the messenger means obedience to the message of Allah, as the messenger is delivering the message of Allah to mankind and no other laws. It is only the law of Allah that people are asked to follow and be obedient to, says the Qur'an. The following verses identify this aspect:
OBEDIENCE IS ONLY FOR THE LAW OF ALLAH
"Surely the 'HUKM' (Law and Rule) is for none but Allah." (12:40)
"He does not make any one His associate in His 'HUKM' (Laws and Ruling)." (18:26)
The phrase "He (Allah) does not associate anyone in His Laws." (18:26) Makes it quite clear that obedience and rule is only for the Law of Allah and no other law. Even a messenger of Allah does not have the authority to make anyone subservient to his personal commands, but obedience and subservience is only for the law of Allah, as the following verse declares:
"It is not meet for a Human Being that Allah should give him the Book and Government and 'Nabuwah' (Direct reception of Divine Messages), then he should say to people: Be subservient to me rather than Allah; but on the contrary (he would say): Become sustenance providers (to mankind) because of your teaching the Book and your studying (it yourselves)." (3:79)
The above verse declares that even a 'Nabi', i.e. a person who is a direct recipient of Allah's message cannot make any other human being subservient to his own laws, but he too is asking the people to be obedient to the law of Allah by studying the Book of Allah and teaching it to others as well.
The rule of Allah is ordained all over the universe in the form of natural laws, but in human affairs, it is established by governing all matters of human life though the injunctions contained in Allah's Book. Muhammad (S.A.W) is himself made to confirm that it is by introducing the injunctions of Allah's distinctly elucidated Book, that Allah's government is to be established in human affairs:

"Shall I then seek a Ruler other than Allah? When He it is Who has revealed to you the Book (which is) distinctly elucidated;" (6:114)
MESSENGER DELIVERS ONLY THE LAW OF ALLAH, AND PEOPLE ARE TO OBEY THE LAW THAT ALLAH GIVES THEM THRUOGH THE AGENCY OF HIS MESSENGER
It is clearly established in the above verse that the messenger of Allah is also to put into practice the laws contained in the Book of Allah, and this clearly makes it evident that obedience to the messenger means obedience to the laws contained in Allah's Book which the messenger is to establish in human affairs. The messenger of Allah delivers only the message of Allah, and does not ask people to be obedient to any other rule or law other than that given in the Book of Allah. The following verses confirm that obedience to the messenger means obedience to the message being delivered by him:
"And obey Allah and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that only a clear deliverance of the message is (incumbent) on Our messenger." (5:92)
"And Allah has made for you of what He has created shelters, and He has given you in the mountains places of retreat, and He has given you garments to preserve you from the heat and coats of mail to preserve you in your fighting; even thus does He complete His favor upon you, that haply you may submit. But if they turn back, then on you devolves only the clear deliverance (of the message)." (16:81-82)
"And if you (o people) reject (the truth), nations before you did indeed reject (the truth); and nothing is incumbent on the messenger but a plain delivering (of the message)." (29:18)
"And obey Allah and obey the messenger, but if you turn back, then upon Our messenger devolves only the clear delivery (of the message)." (64:12)
"Say: Obey Allah and obey the messenger; but if you turn back, then on him rests that which is imposed on him and on you rests that which is imposed on you; and if you obey him, you are on the right way; and nothing rests on the messenger but clear delivering (of the message)." (24:54)
The above verses clearly define what is meant by obedience to Allah and His messenger. The double negative used in the phrase, "..and nothing rests on the messenger but clear delivering (of the message)." Unambiguously states that the messenger makes people obedient only to the message of God that is revealed on him, and does not deliver any other teachings apart from the message of God. This clarifies that obedience to Allah and his messenger does not mean that Allah is giving some separate teachings while messenger ordains some separate injunctions, but clearly states that Allah has revealed his Book on His messenger and the messenger in turn delivers the law contained in the Book of Allah, and we have to obey those laws that Allah has sent to us through the agency of His messenger.
OBEDIENCE IS ONLY FOR THE MESSAGE RECEIVED AND DELIVERED BY THE MESSENGER. NO OTHER BOOK APART FROM THE QUR'AN IS TO BE FOLLOWED AS DIVINE GUIDANCE
In Surah Al-Araf, it is stated that the believers are to follow and obey only the Book of Allah and not obey any other source besides that:
"A Book revealed to you-- so let there be no straitness in your breast on account of it-- that you may warn thereby, and a reminder close to the believers. Follow what has been revealed to you from your Sustainer and do not follow guardians besides Him (His Laws), how little do you mind." (7:2-3)
"Itiba" (Following and obedience) is only for "..what has been revealed to you from your Sustainer.." and the phrase "..do not follow guardians besides Him ..." makes it evident that only the revelation of Allah is to be obeyed and no other source besides that.
The messenger of Allah is reminded that Allah has not given any books apart from the Qur'an which the people should study:
"And We have not given them any books which they study, nor did We send to them before you a warner." (34:44)
The "Mushrikeen" of all times object to the Qur'anic Ayat that are presented, but Allah confirms that He has not given any books which they are to study, apart from Allah's very own Book.
Again, Allah asks a question:
"What! shall We then treat the Muslims as the Criminals? What has happened to you? How do you judge? Or have you a book from which you study?. That you have surely therein what you choose?" (68:35-38)
The question of Allah in the above verses "Or have you a book from which you study?" indicates that Allah has not given any other divine book for study apart from the Qur'an.
Again, Allah confirms that He did not give any other Book apart from the Qur'an:
"Or have We given them a book so that they follow a clear argument thereof? Nay, the unjust do not hold out promises one to another but only to deceive." (35:40)
In Surah Az-Zukhruf it is said about the unbelievers:
"Or have We given them a book before this which they hold fast to?" (43:21)
In Surah Al-Haqqa, after identifying that it is the Qur'anic verses which are the sayings of the messenger, it is mentioned about the messenger that had he invented any sayings by his own self and then attributed them to Allah, he would then have been held accountable for it:
"And if he had uttered against Us some of the sayings. We would certainly have seized him by the right hand. Then We would certainly have cut off his aorta. And not one of you could have withheld Us from him." (69:44-47)
In Surah As-Saffat, Allah challenges the unbelievers to produce their book of authority, thus confirming that all man written books being used by Religions have defect and deficiency:
"What is the matter with you, how is it that you judge? Will you not then mind? Or have you a clear authority? Then bring your book, if you are truthful." (37:154-157)
The messenger is made to confirm that apart from the Qur'an and the revelation given to Moses (which contains the very same message as the Qur'an. Ref 42:13) there is no other book which can give the guidance of Allah:
"Say: Then bring some (other) book from Allah which is a better guide than both of them, (that) I may follow it, if you are truthful." (28:49)
Above verse confirms that there is no other Book apart from the Qur'an (which contains the message of Moses as well) that can give us divine guidance. Allah commands the believers that the very purpose of revealing His Book is that we become subservient to His laws and that we make 'Deen' pure and do not introduce any innovations. It is the Book of Allah which determines what is true from what is false, but people still abandon the Qur'an and seek obedience from the laws of humans:
"The revelation of the Book is from Allah, the Mighty, the Wise. Surely We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, therefore serve Allah, keeping 'Deen' sincere for Him in obedience. Now, surely, sincere obedience in 'Deen' is due to Allah (alone) and (as for) those who take guardians besides Him, (saying), We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah, surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ; surely Allah does not guide him aright who is a liar, ungrateful." (39:1-3)

The above verses remind us that we should serve Allah by following the Qur'an, keep 'Deen' "khalis" (Pure and sincere) for Him, and do not become like those who serve others besides Allah under the delusion that they will bring them closer to Him. Surah Al-Fatir informs us that it is only the Qur'an that is revealed on the messenger and that the Ummah, inherited only the Book of Allah, and no other Book as divine guidance:
"And that which We have revealed to you of the Book, that is the truth verifying that which is before it; most surely with respect to His servants Allah is Aware, Seeing. Then We gave the Book for an inheritance to those whom We chose from among Our servants; but of them is he who makes his soul to suffer a loss, and of them is he who takes a middle course, and of them is he who is foremost in deeds of goodness by Allah's permission; this is the great excellence." (35:31-32)
Only the Book of Allah was given as an inheritance to the Ummah. No other Book.
OBEDIENCE TO ALLAH AND HIS MESSENGER ARE NOT TWO SEPARATE OBEDIENCES BUT ONE OBEDIENCE
The Qur'an has identified that obedience to Allah and His messenger do not mean two separate obediences, such that to obey Allah we have to obey the Qur'an and to obey the messenger we have to obey some books other than the Qur'an. The term "Allah and His messenger" represents a single source of law and obedience, as is evident from the following verses:
In Surah Tauba, a declaration is given by Allah through the agency of His messenger about the "mushrikeen", with whom the Believers had made a contract:
"And an announcement from Allah and His messenger to the people on the day of the greater pilgrimage that Allah and His messenger are free from liability to the idolaters; therefore if you repent, it will be better for you, and if you turn back, then know that you will not weaken Allah; and announce painful punishment to those who disbelieve." (9:3)
The announcement of immunity in the above verse was given by the messenger to the people but it is identified to come from "Allah and His messenger". It is obvious that the messenger did not issue a separate declaration from Allah such that one announcement came from Allah and the other from the messenger, but it is Allah who had commissioned this declaration and it was in turn delivered to people through the agency of His messenger. But the announcement is attributed to both Allah as well as his messenger. This clearly confirms that Allah and His messenger are not two separate sources to give laws and ordinances of a divine nature but it is Allah who is the supreme source of all divine law, but He does not give those laws directly to each and every human being but selects someone as His messenger and it is through the agency of the divinely selected emissary, that the message of Allah is conveyed to the people.
In Surah Al-Anfaal, it is stated:
"O you who believe! obey Allah and His messenger and do not turn back from Him while you hear" (8:20)
In the above verse the Believers are called upon to obey Allah and His messenger but the verse ends with the phrase: "and do not turn back from Him while you hear". Here the believers are identified to be those who were listening to the messenger who delivers the Qur'anic laws to them, as the singular pronoun "from him" indicates. This confirms that Allah and His messenger are not two separate sources of divine law to be obeyed but one source, as the above verse identifies both Allah's as well as His messenger's obedience but ends in the singular pronoun, and not a dual one. This pronoun in the singular is for the messenger to whom the Believers are asked to listen to attentively.
The ultimate source to whom obedience and subservience is due is Allah, but since Allah does not communicate with each and every individual directly, he selects a person among mankind, and reveals His laws and injunctions on His selected emissary. That person, who is divinely chosen, then delivers those Laws that he has received from Allah. Such a person has been called as "Nabi" and "Rasul". He is a "Nabi" on account of his direct reception of the divine message, and "Rasul", as he does not keep the divine message to himself but also delivers it to mankind. The messenger not only calls people to obey those laws which he has received by divine revelation but he himself is also obedient to those laws. It is those laws and injunctions which are contained in the Book of Allah, that are bestowed on the messenger by objective divine revelation and the messenger delivers those to his people and asks them to show obedience to what he is propagating. The Qur'anic verses are themselves identified as the divine utterances of the messenger
"Most surely, it (the Qur'an) is the saying of an honourable messenger." (69:40)
Thus he who listens to the messenger listens to what the messenger propagates. By listening to the messenger people listen to what God has revealed on him and by obeying those injunctions which are delivered by the messenger the people indirectly obey Allah as well, as it is Allah Himself, who has given that teaching to his selected emissary. That is why it is stated in the Qur'an:
"Whoever obeys the messenger, he indeed obeys Allah, and whoever turns back, so We have not sent you as a keeper over them." (4:80)
From the above Qur'anic evidence it is clearly established that obedience to the messenger is not obedience to his personal orders but to the divine laws that have been revealed on him, and that Allah and his messenger are not two separate obediences but it is a term which stands for one single source of divine law and obedience."

29

I am saying the same thing, that we cannot just plainly ignore the Ahadiths....Whatever we wish to seek, we do it from the Quran, and for explainations and practial demonstration, we look at the Ahadiths.... The Ahadiths have got its place, and just cannot be ignored...

30

Camile....>>I would like to find out what people think about the following article which addresses the issues Yaseeny mentioned above:<<

I may express my comments only if you would be kind enough to let us know, if you personaly believe in this article. Otherwise, it would be pointless to find holes in the opinion of the author, who is not among us at this discussion. But if you share the same view point, and conclusion, I will find it worthwhile to add my few cents.

And secondly, where did it actualy appear??

31

The only thing that I have to say to these so-called hadith rejecters who obviously follow the slain Dr. Khalifa that ahadith have been unanimously followed by all the muslims throughout the history of Islam. They are reported by the ahle-bait, most immediate companions and most of the companions of the prophet Mohammad Sallalaho alaihe wasalam. Anybody who would have found the ahdith objectionable must have tried to eliminate their necessity in deen. But on the contrary, we see all the great caliphs including all the scholars whether be shiites or sunnis have consensus upon validity of ahadith in not only determining the conduct of a muslim but in explaining the verses of the Quran. If we for a second accept Mr. Khalifa's position about ahadith, we are in essence saying that all the muslims that have been cherishing this great knowledge for so many years and all the muslims from whom these ahadith flowed down to us have been seriously deluded. This is a very dangerous stance since it pits a group that has very recently surfaced, its leader ruthlessly murdered on the charge of heresy and its claim that all the muslims including the pious predecessors were deluded and only this group has the truth. Just considering this aspect should be enough for a thinking muslim that how perverted is this line of thinking and how dangerously it distorts centuries of valuable islamic tradition and how important it is to stamp out such elements before they take root and become as organized as the infamous Ahmadis.

32

Baykhatr,

It was written by someone called K.Ahmed and it was sent to me by a friend, I think it comes from a Quran only site. As for my point of view, well I'm still trying to verify and learn about Islam and am open to various opinions - which include the validity of the hadith. So the answer is I don't really know yet but it would help me and others a great deal if you and others could analyse the arguments logically and state grounds for rejection or acceptance. But I must say that I don't think the Quran plays enough of a role in our lives as it should and we rely on the hadith too much. I think you would agree on the importance of reading every verse and finding out the truth would'nt you?

Iqadeer,

Rashad Khalifa believes in some absurd 19 theory and also thinks he is a prophet - I have no time for such nonsense nor would I quote anything from him. Lets not label anyone as hadith accptors or rejectors but try and learn from each other with an open mind. The Quran is divenely protected don't worry about anyone trying to change it, what about the hadith, could some of them have been changed or are they divenly protected too? By the way do the hadith clarify EVERY verse in the Quran? If not why not?

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Camille says.....>>So the answer is I don't really know yet but it would help me and others a great deal if you and others could analyse the arguments logically and state grounds for rejection or acceptance.<<

Thankyou dear. I will do so in due course. It takes time to compare the points raised by author. But in the meantime I have to say that in fact there is a Hadith which says that if a Hadith is in accordance with Holy Qur'an it is to be relied upon as being authentic and one which is against Holy Qur'an is to be discarded as not being a word of the Holy Prophet. Now there are certain things which he, pbuh stated as being good to be practised and followed by the faithful and certain others which he forbade.

Where he, pbuh has not stated any thing specific it is left to his followers to do as they like without violating any injunctions of Holy Qur'an and Sunnah. Some devout Muslims have deep love and affection for the Holy Prophet (SAW). For them everything which the Holy Prophet (SAW) did, liked or said must be followed in letter and spirit. This is a sign of their regard respect and immense love for him. They follow him in every bit and detail.

There is no harm as these people are very well intentioned. However they may just guard that their actions may not give wrong signals to the world community. Therefore perhaps, it may be quite alright to do as one pleases in an individual capacity. However, on a collective basis, it may be greater service if this is avoided. It must not be preached to common people as a good deed by itself.

Example! Some Muslims take more than one wife and take pride that they are following the Sunnah. However, hardly anyone, if at all, follows the Holy Prophet (SAW) in the matter of his first marriage. He married Hadhrat Khadija (Radhiyallaho anha)twice widowed lady senior to him by 15 years when he was 25 years old. It would thus appear that we are only required to follow his advice where he specifically so ordained and that is true emulation of the Holy Prophet (SAW).

In due course, inshaAllah!

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Thanks for that, I agree with you a lot on what you are saying, the bottom line is that our prophet (pbuh) would not have done anything against the Quran anyway.

people may be well intentioned in emulating the prophet but it is sometimes turned into idol worship, you know how serious that is don't you. Only is the supreme law maker, and our prophet was warner to us. There is no question at all on the respect the muslims have for the prophet, its a non issue.

Your example of the 4 wives is a good one where the conditions of the Quran are effectively ignored because people are following a tradition. What happen in the case where Quran has laid down a punishment for something which has later changed by various scholors or jurists who base it on some hadith? Example:Quran clearly states that the punishment for adulterers is 100
lashes, then if someone says BUT the exception is that a married adulterer is to be stoned to death (an exception not found in the Quran). How should we judge? By the word of Allah or by other words, I think the following should be clear to all:

"Shall I seek other than Allah for judge, when He it is Who hath revealed unto you (this) Scripture, fully explained?"16.114

Take care.

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As for the argument that is hadith divinely protected. No, it isn't. But do we have standards to judge ahadith to sift the weak ones from the strong. Yes, fortunately we do and therefore there is no reason to disbelieve in them. As for the argument that does hadith explain each and every ayaat of the Quran. I am not following the logic here. Even if it doesn't, does it affect the credibility of ahadith in any way shape or form? No. They stay still valid. None of my points have been picked upon by Camille such as if belief in ahadith was such a big issue, why has it only been seen as such until only recently by a small group of people whereas the vast majority of muslims or the sawad-e-azam has had no problem accepting its validity from the beginning of Islam?

[This message has been edited by iqadeer (edited September 15, 1999).]

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This discussion is great. I'll get into it shortly (since I seem to have partly started it).

Btw, sorry for my abscence, busy moving and getting settled into my new place.

Achtung

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Camille, it is true that the punishment of fornication is 100 lashes. Qura~n, however is silent about an adultrer. (It is the older revealed books which prescribe stoning for adultry)To say that the penality of stoning is a voilation of Qura~n, I am affraid, is an argument from silence.

Such punishment was prescribed by Prophet, because of the spontaneous confession of the culprit eager to purify himself in this life. He confessed his crime and asked to be stoned to death. The Prophet pbuh turned his face as the act was accomplished in secret, thus the matter was concerning only the culprit, his soul and conscience. (Remember another beauty of Islam is that it does not ask the confession maker to name the other party)But the man earnestly renewed his confession and his request. But the Prophet pbuh again turned his face. It happened third time but the Prophet pbuh turned his face but when the person repeated his confession fourth time, the Prophet pbuh, asked him if he had become insane. First by refusing to listen, then by questioning the fact, the Prophet was prompting him to retract, but the man was adamant. At the moment of his execution, he regretted his declaration and ran away. The punishment squad grabed him and killed him. The Prophet pbuh, then pronounced his famous sentence: "Would that you should have left him alive: he would have repented and Allah would have been merciful to him."

Fourteen centuries have passed since the most sever punishment was edicted. Can you honestly count or report fourteen cases of stoning?? I think not.

So my point is again the same, the we are required to follow his pbuh's advice in full. Not in piece meals. To prescribe stoning is over enthusiasm in obeying the Prophet pbuh.

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Iqadeer wrote: "None of my points have been picked upon by Camille such as if belief in ahadith was such a big issue, why has it only been seen as such until only recently by a small group of people whereas the vast majority of muslims or the sawad-e-azam has had no problem accepting its validity from the beginning of Islam?"

Hadith's have always been an issue of contention. Abu Bakr is reported to have destroyed over 200,000 hadith's himself, symbolizing the continuous skepticism Muslims, from early history to present, have had with the validity of hadith literature. Further all major Muslim scholars from the ultra conservative to the ultra modern have viewed hadith's with some skepticism. If Abu Bakr, an extremely pious Muslim most probably beyond the caliber of any Muslim alive today, was able to make such a drastic decision to destroy numerous hadith's, why can't the Muslims of today follow his example and rid the world of sayings attributed to the Prophet and his companions and wives, which ridicule our great religion and only cause discontent and confusion amongst our Ummah?

Yaseeny wrote: "Even the Scholars who have written Tafseers on Quran accept that many of the topics in Quran are not given in detail, and for those topics we look at the Ahadiths for explainations...
1. Signs of the day of Judgement [this is in the Quran at various junctures],
2. Details of Dajjal [this is a contentious issue in itself],
3. How to Govern ? [is as ambigous in the Qur'an as it is in the hadith]
4. Call to Prayers (Adhaan)
5. Characteristics of Prayer
6. Witr Prayer
7. Invoking Allah for Rain
8. Shortening the Prayers (At-Taqseer)
9. Prayer at Night (Tahajjud)
10. Actions while Praying
11. Funerals (Al-Janaa'iz)
12. Obligatory Charity Tax (Zakat)
13. Pilgrimmage (Hajj) [this is mentioned in the Qur'an]
14. Minor Pilgrammage (Umra) [this is mentioned in the Qur'an]
15. Praying at Night in Ramadaan (Taraweeh)
16. Retiring to a Mosque for Remembrance of Allah (I'tikaf)
17. Sales and Trade
18. Representation, Authorization, Business by Proxy
19. Agriculture
20. Distribution of Water
21. Loans, Payment of Loans, Freezing of Property, Bankruptcy
22. Partnership
23. Mortgaging"

Thats a long list of things, most of them dealing with aspects of ritualistic practice. It could be argued that many of these items have been discussed in the Qur'an but not in detail. It wouldn't be worth it to go through each and every item. About 9 of the items deal with prayer - the Qur'an does discuss prayer, it does discuss the 'remembrance of Allah' - what it doesn't do is give precise details regarding the manner in which Muslims should conduct themselves when praying or remembering Allah. But aren't the hadith's themselves divergent on this topic. Why do Shiah pray in one manner while Sunni's pray in another? Although the fundamentals of the prayer are one (as derived by the Qur'an), the difference in the prayer is decided upon by the hadith literature - is it not? The last 7 on the list deal with aspects regarding business. I personally think that these can be dealt with using the both the Qur'an. As far as the intricacies and details of business transactions goes, these can be altered as long as the alterations do not impinge on the rules and regulations as set in the Qur'an (i.e. equality, freedom from rida, etc.).

Achtung ;)

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Achtung,
You are absolutely right that hazrat Abu-Bakr (radhi Allah anho) destroyed the ahadith and ahadith have been, to the extent of authenticity, been controversial. However, I invite you to look into the reason why hazrat Abu-Bakar Siddiq (radhi Allah anho) would do something so drastic. His purpose in destroying the ahadith was not to show that ahadith are unacceptable and contrary to Quran and must therefore, be abolished. Because even during the times many of the sahaba including closest companions such as Abu-Huraira, Abu Musa Ashari, Ammar bin Yaasir, few among others have been in the practice of memorizing and sometimes writing ahadith. In fact, majority of the ahadith are narrated by these sahaba. The list includes names such as Ummul-Momineen, hazrat Aisha (radhi Allah anha), hazrat Umar, Uthman, Ali,Abu Zar, Abu Darda, Suhaib Rumi (Radhi Allah Ajma'een) being the prominent ones. If that were the case then prophet (salalaho alaihe wasalam) must have given explicit orders to refrain from doing so. Or even during the times of Abu-Bakar (radhi Allah anho) such law should have been imposed against narrating the ahadith (which the history shows was not done). This act was an isolated act and was merely done out of fear of unintentionally ascribing something that the prophet (sallalaho alaihe wasalam) did not say. In his own words, he told his daughter Aisha (radhi Allah anha),

[quote]
The collection contained many hadiths that I had heard from other people. I thought if I died and left behind a hadith accepted as authentic by me, but really not so, then I should have to answer for that.
[/quote]
. Notice that hazrat Abu Bakar is not rejecting the validity of prophetic saying but expressing his anxiety regarding the lack of knowledge about their authenticity. On other occasions, such as his historic address at the time of selection of Caliphate, he quoted numerous ahadith that he had heard from the prophet (sallalaho alaihe wasalam) regarding the virtues and priveleges of Ansaar.This address contained the famous one that the caliphate should remain within the Quresh. The eminent sahaba, although they knew a lot of ahadith, were extremely cautious in the way of narrating the ahadith since they knew of a hadith that says "A person who attributes anything to me, which I have not said, is making his abode in the Hell." That only signifies the importance that we should ensure that the hadith that we are narrating has been verified by the scholars and must narrate it verbatim, rather than saying that this is what prophet (sallalaho alaihe wasalam) said and then just say it in our own words or according to our own understanding. We have to narrate the hadith as it was narrated by prophet (sallalaho alaihe wasalam) himself.

As to the question of abolishing the ahadith altogether, I don't agree to that in the least since that has neither been proposed, nor accepted by anybody from the beginning of Islam. If such were the case, prophet (salalaho alaihe wasalam) would be the first one to direct his companions to do so. That has not been the case. Not even with the righteous caliphs, the pious predecessors, or any muslim scholars of the past and the present. Notwithstanding the fact that there are general disagreements over the authenticity issue, however none so severe as to require this action or even make this as a viable alternative. Muslims, in general, agree over majority of the ahadith collection and there are relatively only a few that can be considered causing disputes. We should not try to blow this thing out of proportions. We should not victimize ahadith as the thing that is causing disunity among the muslims. More than anything, it is lack of moral character that has divided us more than anything and that has primarily come about being away from the Quran and the sunnah and not obeying the orders of Allah. We have respect and love for money and material success more than anything in our lives including Allah and his orders. That is why the muslims are only worried about affairs of this life and consider making effort for the next life as a vain task. If and when we turn our direction towards Allah and repent and mend our ways, Inshallah, we will emerge again as a great ummat that we were once before. May Allah give us the correct understanding of the deen and use us as a means of spreading the correct Islamic knowledge. Jazakum Allah Khair.

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Iqadeer wrote: "His purpose in destroying the ahadith was not to show that ahadith are unacceptable and contrary to Quran and must therefore, be abolished."

I agree with you that Abu Bakr destroyed the hadith because he was unsure of their authenticity. I'm sure he would also destroy hadiths contrary to the word of God in the Qur'an.

The problem today is really one of scholarship. The fact is that very few people in the Muslim community would accept any tampering with the hadith collections. Abu Bakr of course was able to destroy hadiths because of his status and relationship with the Prophet. If such a person existed today, it wouldn't be a difficult task to sift through the hadith collections and deny the validity of other weak hadiths.

I imagine that hadith's were collected and penned down far after the death of the last righteous caliph (Hazrat Ali). Perhaps under the tutelage of these four caliphs, in addition to their own example, which I'm sure was quiet in line with the Sunnah, the hadiths were not used to the extent which they are today. A Muslim could ask one of the Caliphs for advice, a Muslimah could ask the Prophet's wife for advice. But today that direct link to such pious characters does not exist. Hence the need for the Hadiths.

If Bukhari, Muslim, Tirimdhi were able to collect and sift through thousands of hadiths in the past, why can't we do the same today? Why can't we re-examine there collections and destroy the harmful remnants of the past. Its a well known fact and well documented, that hadith's were fabricated, some well intentioned, others to benefit a few. Even the Satanic Verses is based on our own Hadith literature (so why blame Rushdie). Read some early orientalist writings and you'll see that these writers used our own hadith's to ridicule our Prophet, to undermine his character, to insult his family, his wives, in an attempt to destroy our religion.

I agree with you - don't throw away the collections, they are important links to our history and provide guidelines to our way of life - but at least view them critically and re-examine there contents. Re-examine them to the point of dis-empowering them and wherever necessary reaffirming the word of God as written in the Qur'an.

A final question which remains unanswered is Camilles earlier question - Is the Qur'an complete?

  • This day have I perfected your religion for you and ** completed ** My favour unto you, and have chosen for you as religion al-Islam (5:3) *

Achtung