More Indians want to leave India ........

Exodus of Indians. Why do so many Indians want to leave their country? Have any of the Indians on Gupshup given a thought?

Exodus
The jamboree that was the Pravasi Bharatiya Divas only shows up that swadeshi be damned, videsh is where middle India wants to be

SOUTIK BISWAS

The First Wave
Late 19th Century

Nature of migrants: Voluntary emigrants, traders, indentured labour

Destinations: Africa, Southeast Asia, West Indies
The Second Wave
1970s

Nature of migrants: Professionals and entrepreneurs
Destinations: US, Europe, West Asia
The Third Wave
The biggest one, happening now

Nature of migrants: White-collar professionals, students, diploma-holders.

Destinations: Canada, New Zealand, Australia, USA.

20,000,000
Indians Living Abroad

246,000
Indians who migrated to the US in the last two years

85,000
Skilled computer professionals leaving India every year contributing to annual ‘resource loss’ of $2 billion

11,000
Number of Indians who migrated to New Zealand in the last three years

5,000
Number of Indians who migrated to Canada in 2002

50
Percentage of IIT graduates leaving India every year

20
Percentage of medical school graduates leaving India every year

2
India’s rank among countries exporting people to the US. Mexico is number 1.

1
India’s rank among countries exporting students to the US. 90 per cent of them never return.


Narender Chandok, 48, is a Delhi-based businessman who runs a pool parlour and a small construction firm. His wife, Raka, 47, owns a beauty salon. They live with their three school- and college-going children Tanya, Gaurav and Petal in a three-storey family home in posh Defence Colony. The seemingly comfortably settled Chandoks are not exactly the archetype of a family that wants to quit India for a better life abroad, right? Not quite. A year ago, a neighbour returned from a holiday in Canada and told them of the good life there. The Chandoks gave migrating to Canada a good, hard thought. How would it be to begin a new life in a foreign land in their middle age? Would they be able to cope with the cultural dislocation? Were they ready to slog it out in hardscrabble supermarket and supervisory jobs? Much soul-searching later, the family applied for migration to give their children a better life and beat the creeping recession in India that they feel is slowly crippling first-generation businesses like theirs. They even got Raka’s brother, an accountant with a Delhi-based luxury hotel, to join the bandwagon. “You have to be excellent in India to survive,” says Raka. “If you are not and your children aren’t very bright, then you are sunk.” Then there’s the crime, pollution and the scramble for basic necessities. “You read the papers and worry every day about your children returning home safely, about your future. The system sucks.”

Far away, in lawless Patna, Man Mohan Jha, 52, a manager with steel ropes-manufacturer Usha Martin, is counting his days to July when he’ll get on a flight to the US, where he’s migrating to with his wife. “I am fed up with India,” says Jha. “Everything works on power and connections. There’s no scope for growth and security for people like us. It’s the insecurity and lawlessness that’s compelling me to leave. Otherwise, who goes to an alien land at this age?”

Hear out a desperate Nalin Gomes, 25, a Delhi-based online booking agency hand who’s sold his family apartment to raise money for migrating to Canada: “I work 16 hours a day and get Rs 10,000 at the end of the month. What does this money buy? In Canada, I want to be rich and successful in five years and run my own business.” Well-settled Delhi-based marketing consultant Manmohan Sethi, 48, who’s submitted his papers for migrating to Canada with his wife and two children, finds living in India “chaotic and unsafe”. "If my children’s schoolbus is delayed by 30 minutes, I’m in a state of panic.

When we go out, I don’t know whether we’d return home safely. I’m ready to burn my bridges and leave." Laments Amit Raisinghani, 28, an accountant with a Mumbai firm who has applied for migration to New Zealand, "I am just fed up with the low quality of life here. The pollution, overcrowding, the open corruption. How

long can you bear it?"

What’s happening? “People seem to have given up on India,” says B.S. Sandhu, who runs Worldwide Immigration Consultancy Services (WWICS), India’s biggest agency helping people migrate. If it’s not the rage against a rotten system, it’s the lure of the lifestyle that’s been snaring people like Bangalore-based Joseph Prabhakar, 45, and his wife, Sagaya Mary, 30, who are packing their bags and migrating to New Zealand next month with their two children.Things had also begun to look a tad uncertain for Prabhakar, an engineering diploma-holder, after the electrical equipment company where he had been working for the past 25 years began slipping into the red.So he did what he thought was the smartest thing: he went on a tourist visa to New Zealand, got himself a job in a plastics company in Auckland, and has now returned for his family. “The lifestyle is swell. I can own a house much faster there, instead of a plot of land that I’ve bought in an area where there’s no electricity.
Then, there’s no corruption and everybody is equal before the law,” says Prabhakar. Wife Sagaya Mary says she will miss her relatives, “but we have to think of our future and our children”.

Make no mistake about it. These people are not loony mavericks leaving their country of birth in a fit and emigrating mid-career
with their families. They are among the legions of hopeless Indians who see a bleaker future than ever before in their homeland. They are families who did not find a place in last week’s platitude-soaked celebrations of Pravasi Bharatiya Divas, a flashy jamboree ‘honouring’ the Indian diaspora in Delhi. The rising economic uncertainty with the collapse of the old (and now, new) economy firms, the absence of a social security net, relentlessly rising crime and terrorism, the lack of clean air, water, enough good schools, and a venal political culture where power, pelf and connections matter most are triggering a fresh wave of near-panicky exodus of Indians. It is also helping enormously that countries like Australia, New Zealand and Canada, the three most sought-after countries, are inviting migrants through a passmark system. “The greatest thing about migrating,” says Abdul Majid, 36, a Vancouver-based architect who migrated to Canada with his family three years ago, “is the feeling that I am finally a part of a civilised, law-abiding society and everybody is actually accountable”.

Because most of that country does not have covered sewers, running water, or reliable electricity. Who wants to live in a $hithole like that?

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20030120&fname=Cover+Story+(F)&sid=1

Here is the URL

Its not just Indians, any ppl in the third world, they chase better opportunities in the developed world, we cant pick on 1 nation-as much as I love picking on India. :p

most indians leave india . now india is empty of 1 bilion people

we have a lot of people. US and Canada have a lot of resources. We bring the expertise to exploit these resources better, make money, spend some and send some. India is enriched, US & Canada are enriched and we are happy. That's how it works because we add value. Oh by the way, we as a rule get legal visas for doing all this.

without letting anti-India hatred cloud you eyes just look around you in pakistan and you'll find pretty darn much sentiments.

btw i don't know if you know of the trend to bring jobs into India instead of flying people out....

Out of the figure of 20,000,000 you gave, most of them went/taken away by the Britishers pre-1947 and are in fact no longer indians but PIOs, i.e. Person of Indian Origin (including those from what is now Pakistan).

(Third try posting)

In speaking to an Indian banking luminary, he said an interesting thing. "India is not a poor country, but Indians are poor". What do you think?

sounds smart but then bankers can only do smart oneliners, mostly. Sad fact is, whichever way it is spun, there are too many that don't have enough, many cities are absolutely teeming with trained beggars and severe unemployment and under employment persists in number of states. I don't know if the dispairity between haves and have nots is growing or not but we are too pre-occupied with a dumb neigbour's nagging cross border terrorism, significant cadre of corrupt politicians and religious strife in some places. These are bringing down the numerous amazing great achievements in agriculture, industry, technology, services and planning. We need a few massive national projects such interstate building, water grid etc that employ millions of unskilled and skilled workers and build the nations infrststrusture. We also need to somehow get out of the nasty pan-spitting, public defacing, roadside water closeting, movie-start worshipping attitudes.

Jagjeevan: Inside your diatribe you had only one piece of information that is not obvious to a two year old retard.

"public spending": this is one meaning of what the 'one liner banker" said. Take a guess how he meant it.

Why is it that everyone on this website cna comeup with issues but never any solutions. Be it the pakistan economy or INdia. Tell me how you would pay fo rinfrastructure investment. The answer is in the statement of the banker.

^ Divestment of public sector?

Partly true Ana. But how? The point he was making was that infrastructure development in India cannot be done through gov't spending. iNfact now that I think about it, his statement is the smartest thing I have heard in a while.

If you sell off public sector utilities or open that area up to private investment, the party that would have the most ready funds would be foreign. Foreign investors can bring in the required skills and resouces to manage public sector, but the Indian government has shown its inability to cope with joint-venture adequately - Enron's fiasco over Dabhol case in point. Until corruption doesn't get dealt with, foreign direct investment is all going to go into privileged pockets. Also, foreign companies usually have this divide and conquer type philosophy, that doesn't sit well with the public.

I don't think India is a poor country. It's got heaps of resources that just haven't been utilized correctly. How can they, when there is so much corruption everywhere?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ana: *
If you sell off public sector utilities or open that area up to private investment, the party that would have the most ready funds would be foreign. Foreign investors can bring in the required skills and resouces to manage public sector, but the Indian government has shown its inability to cope with joint-venture adequately - Enron's fiasco over Dabhol case in point. Until corruption doesn't get dealt with, foreign direct investment is all going to go into privileged pockets. Also, foreign companies usually have this divide and conquer type philosophy, that doesn't sit well with the public.
[/QUOTE]

Disinvestment doesn't necessarily mean good times. There is no direct correlation either between disinvestment and FDI. The problem with countries like China and India is they still have subsidized PSu's that eat into the gov't regulated industries. China's NPA's are 140% of GDP. $300 Billion in bad loans to PSU's alone. You cannot look at privitization until you have fixed the problem. Capital markets don't respond well to bloated, un-profitable industries.

Corruption is corruption. Did you know that people factor in 10% of budget when doing business in India/pak/china for graft as part of contingency funds or cost of doing business.

Divide and conquer philosophy? Can you expand upon that? If by that you mean competition, than they are right in doing so.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Ana: *
I don't think India is a poor country. It's got heaps of resources that just haven't been utilized correctly. How can they, when there is so much corruption everywhere?
[/QUOTE]

This statement has a lot to do with what that gentleman was talking about. Indians are notorious savers, poor investors, in India atleast, and even worse tax payers. 1% of Indians pay income or property taxes. Tax revenues for gov't come mostly from excise and trade finance sources. And we all know what thay can do to your pricing of foreign goods in the local market.

In a country which has the 4th largest economy on an aggregate level to increase it;s tax base to let's say 10% a year, could pay for infrastructure investment for the next 2 generations. that is the issue.

:teary1: I promise I got a B in International Trade and Finance. Phir bhi saab kuch upar sey kyon guzar gaya? :Ana slapping herself silly to wake up:

Naturally capital market won’t respond to unprofitable sectors, that’s just logic 101.

Did you know that people factor in 10% of budget when doing business in India/pak/china for graft as part of contingency funds or cost of doing business.

Yes. Chalo, I atleast know something. Good thought 4 the day. :slight_smile:

Divide and conquer philosophy? Can you expand upon that? If by that you mean competition, than they are right in doing so.

Started with East India Company, now so many foreign firms latch on to this concept. You offer certain groups incentive like lucrative labor contracts, hospitals, villagers are offered money, etc.., while leaving out other groups or other interests, dividing people. Eg. in Narmada Dam project, they offered irrigation benefits to a handful of villagers and upstaged the others who stood to be victimized by it. It was just simply dividing the drought-afflicted with the dam-afflicted. You know that in a country like India, emotions play a very strong role. It’s competition, yes, but I don’t think it’s the right kind of competition.

I agree than increasing income tax would be a good way to increase government revenue and hence spending. But Indians are the worst tax payers because just look at the tax structure.

Import tax revenue does certainly bring in a whole lot of money for the government, and that’s why the indian exports abroad are taxed in reciprocation. So value of real wages in India has fallen, buying power of exports has fallen, equals sustitution with locally produced goods and services. Substitution of goods to local sector equals movement of labor into local demand industries. Demand for imports falls, hence reciprocal demand for exports falls. Results in unemployment in export sector spilling over into substitution sector as scarce resources run out. Overall unemployment, generates into zero revenue from income tax, equals increased import tax equals increased export tax equals human beings squeezed out and only taxes left in existence.

Conclusion: If the government does away with excise taxes, mebbe they will get somewhere in the income tax sector.

Did I pass? :blush:

I am not sure what your point is? Is it a search for an egalitarian concept in competition? India tried that for 37 yrs. what it got us, was a license raj. I am not sure we need to go through that again. Plus,the economic system of post 1991 India is 180 degree different from that of the Brits.

Through devolution of power and inprovements in the individual state’s abilities to garner FDI, we are seeing investments in AP, karnataka, Maharashtra, Tamil Nadu at a faster pace then other states. THAT is the real competition. Techonlogy parks come with roads and schools and power grids. The question for India will be whether states (leaders) who just don’t get it can keep up. There is a trickle down effect in growth but with laggards like UP, Bihar in the midst, it could translate into a dragging down effect. Someday I will tell you a lullabuy I wsa privy to re: a conversation between B. Gates, Michael Dell and C.B. Naidu. :slight_smile:

You are right about the effect of high excise taxes on real wages however, the question will still remain, collection of taxes. If taxable income is $800 Billion at 35% yields, $320 Billion. That is a lot of public infra projects.

Whether I am reading about Pakistani people or Indian, I get same feelings:

  • They all want to leave if they are residing there
  • They all curse government
  • They all curse insecurity
  • They all curse corruption
  • They all curse expense of living

Lets be optimist for a while, if all those people didn't leave their country, how would India get so much revenue if those living abroad were to not send some money home, how would world know about IT power in India? how could have they brought business from outside to India? Of course there are some disadvantages to it, but then again if they all had stayed in India there would have been more disadvantages i.e. more people to get jobs, more people hungry for money/food, more people on roads, more congested cities etc. So it is good for the country. BUT they should all remain sincere with their country.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Changez_like: *
Whether I am reading about Pakistani people or Indian, I get same feelings:

  • They all want to leave if they are residing there
  • They all curse government
  • They all curse insecurity
  • They all curse corruption
  • They all curse expense of living

Lets be optimist for a while, if all those people didn't leave their country, how would India get so much revenue if those living abroad were to not send some money home, how would world know about IT power in India? how could have they brought business from outside to India? Of course there are some disadvantages to it, but then again if they all had stayed in India there would have been more disadvantages i.e. more people to get jobs, more people hungry for money/food, more people on roads, more congested cities etc. So it is good for the country. BUT they should all remain sincere with their country.
[/QUOTE]

NRI community in the US is not based around remittances. Indians who come to the US generally want to stay here for good. Everything else you have written makes little sense considering the same can be said for anyother large diaspora.

True. :k:

Egalitarian concept in competiton :k: :hula:, but u r right, it didn’t get us anywhere.

Hey $800B at 35% is $280B (dream on). The remaining is what? :hoonh:

Also, I don’t think remittances make up for much when you look at the big picture.

haha..sorry I miscalculated. I think the point is still valid though.