MORALS AND VALUES

Society Religion & Philosophy
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NYA pointed out that attitudes towards gay people are changing and questioned if Islam would change also. It begs the question on where do we get values/morals from in society and are they effective to lead a wholesome life?

We need the knowledge of ‘absolute’ values for the right conduct of life and the unimpeded development of the self. But reason, the main instrument of knowledge we possess, tells us only about ‘relative’ values. Reason cannot even give a definitive answer to the question as to whether there are absolute values and, if so, how can they be known. It tends to define value in subjective terms, only in relation to the particular experiencing individual. This infact is a tacit denial of an objective system of values valid for all men at all times, this cuts at the root of Islam. Islam involves belief in objective, absolute values and morals.

So mans own knowledge and reason to determine values is a constant experiment, reconstructing the scale of values and moral standards in the light of fresh knowledge. Absolute values cannot be meant to have only subjective validity for the person concerned. Men actually think differently about moral questions and there is no empirical reason for supposing that they will ever do otherwise. Where then and how does the moral ideal really exist ? A absolute standard of values which are the same for all beings (I guess this is what morality is).

Our moral ideal can only claim objective validity if it can be regarded as externally existing, in the case of Islam it is from Allah. In short, while the authority of reason cannot be questioned in the world of fact, the realm of ends is definitely outside its jurisdiction . Our intelligence alone cannnot answer the question of the meaning of life and what the reality will be after death.

Revelation tells us about the ends of the human personality, which, by seeking to
attain them, qualifies itself to continue its existence on a higher plane after death. To sum up, our only source of knowledge regarding ultimate values is Divine Revelation - the holy Quran.

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NYAhmadi,

Everyone's view on what is right and wrong is coloured by something. The western view that you are espousing is based on self-interest. Someone has to be the winner and someone has to be the loser. There is nothing moral about it. You are sitting in the US and you have got a taste of the good life therefore you are bound to defend it. But the vast majority of the world is not party to these riches. 70% of the world's resources are consumed by less than 30% of the world's population. What is moral about that?

During a conference about the environment, George Bush (then President) said that he would not take any decisions which would put American citizen's interests at risk. So third world countries around the world said "if that's your attitude then don't lecture us about cutting down rain forests for our national interests etc".

Your type of morality is definitely subjective. Environment definitely plays a part in how people think. I imagine if your US citizenship was revoked and you were deported to Ethiopa you would form radically different views. But this doesn't mean everybody is right. The values of the Qur'an are timeless and based on absolute truth which never changes. Your morality is subject to your whims and desires. This type of morality can lead anywhere, witness current ideas about homosexuality.

This is a good subject and there are lots of avenues which have yet to be explored. Depending on your reply to this we'll see where we can take it.

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Hi NYA,

I'm not sure I understand the testing of the hypothesis, I have no doubt on the impact of enviroment and do not believe that morals and values for other people are no good. I'm not going to tacklre the question of interpretation because this is another topic altogether, but suffice to say that there is 'general' agreement on the meaning of the Quran, enough to be guided by it if that was the only guidance we used (excluding hadith etc). I am not saying that all the values and morals actually exist with muslims either, I am merley stating what can be possible and my search for the truth and guidance, struggling basically!

Islam is not the collection of a few moral values; it is a comprehensive system of life covering all aspects of human life. The moral values become operative within this system, or in other words this system provides that sound base on which the edifice of these moral values is established.
For eg Its common knowledge and the whole world says that telling a lie is bad; dishonesty is intensely opprobrious; deception is very contemptible misdemeanor but in spite of all this the whole world tell lies; corruption is rampant every where; cheating is in full swing. The question is why is this all happening? In spite of condemning and cursing all these things why has man taken to them?

Its reason is that either the people acknowledge these moral values just as of formality or they have their foundation on emotions alone. They know nothing as to why these values should be followed and why should they not be violated. You ask a person to satisfy you as to why you should not tell a lie. Going a little deeper than superficial talk, you would realise that he has no reasonable reply to this question. With all the reason and rhyme at his command, he would not be able to respond to the why of your question. And since man adopts only that which gives him gain and abandons that which causes him loss, therefore his acquiescence to this effect is either simply traditional or imitation or the product of emotional inclinations. He neither develops insight of these values nor rationally makes them the way of his life.

The Quran provides those basic concepts, which conspicuously bring forth the purpose and ultimate aim of human life. The purpose of life defines the proper value of every thing and when these values are identified it can very easily be understood which one is profit bearing and which one is loss accruing; which one is higher and which one is lower on the continuum of values. The reason that the moral values are still being theoretically appreciated today is that the man has, up till now, not been able to erase his sub-conscience free from the binding effects of the past. If this concept pervaded any further into the next few generations, even the concept of these values will be wiped off from his mind and its verbal confession will also remain no more.

Under this concept of life, (the law of the jungle) the human life is only the physical life and laws governing the life and the death at the animal level apply to man also. Survival of the fittest is the immutable law of nature. According to this law, only the one wielding the maximal scepter of authority and power has the right to live. How was this authority and power acquired is no question. The poor and the weak and the powerless can be allowed to live only to become victual of the powerful. Every big fish devours the smaller one. When the human life is not valued higher than that of the animal level, obviously every individual would work under these very instincts, and then there would be no room for the moral values. Islam provides such concepts on which the whole edifice of human life is raised and where every aspect of life is embodiment of higher values. These are only the characteristics of Islam, which entitles it to become the system of life established on right lines and surety to human achievement and prosperity. Why Islam is the only one and aren't all religions the same? That's again another long topic which I won't start now.

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[quote]
The values of the Qur'an are timeless and based on absolute truth which never changes
[/quote]
What does this mean? What kind of a statement is this? I have been hearing this kind of stuff since I was a kid and I never understood it. You issue a statement without pointing out the factual evidence about it and then just simply follow it? And even if you enlist all those values, I am pretty sure that 90% of them would be the ones for which you don't even need a religion to follow!

Every Friday, the molvi close to my house back in Lahore would say things like these on loud speaker, and I never understood him. He never logically proved it.

It's like trying to sell something without showing it to the consumer.

And as far as God is concerned, this is what I think:

God needs couple of courses in effective written communication. Because more than half the time what He/She/It says is so ambigous that everyone has his/her own interpretation! Come on, give me a break, you want to communicate with zillions of people in generations and times apart and this is how you would do it?

I mean if you look at it, you have about 300-400 pages long book that you want to write to communicate with whole mankind and you start off by telling stories of Adam and Hawa and how they used to live in heaven?

And, ok, let's say writting Quran like that (which would result in 72 sects, for example) was intentional and planned and all, but then you are going to punish those people who won't be able to understand what you mean? and have the "wrong interpretaion" of it? Something is wrong in the whole story... something is terribly missing.

With all due respect, Dear GOD, I strongly disagree with your style and idea of communication!

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What does this mean? What kind of a stement is this? I have been hearing this kind of stuff since I was a kid and I never understood it.<

Then you should have tried to understand it.

And even if you enlist all those values, I am pretty sure that 90% of them would be the ones for which you don't even need a religion to follow!<

Now go back and read what you quoted.

With all due respect, Dear GOD, I strongly disagree with your style and idea of communication!<

With no due respect, you should first understand the issue you are disagreeing to.
I don't think anyone can agree or disagree to an issue which she doesn't understand.

Asking questions to get answers is one thing, and just "venting" is another.

Allah knows best.

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Venting... precisely the word, deepblue!

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Roman,

The statement

[quote]
The values of the Qur'an are timeless and based on absolute truth which never changes
[/quote]

is pretty self-explanatory.

Like I said in the relevant post, because we believe in the Qur'an through rational thought, then we accept that as Allah's word it guides us to what is right and wrong and this doesn't change with our whims and desires. Like I said, just because homosexuality is fashionable today doesn't mean that it has become any more acceptable than it was before. True right or wrong can never change with the fashion.

Probably 100 years down the line what you consider morals will seem ludicrous to those of that time. Who knows what will be acceptable then? Microwaving hamsters for entertainment perhaps? Hard to say isn't it?

Anyhow, you are free to believe whatever you want in your time on this earth. You are even free to believe that you don't have to feel grateful for your sustenance, water, food, light, intelligence, every single cell that goes into your make up and is interdependent on everything else - you can quite happily believe that this is all a happy coincedence, and no one can make you believe otherwise if you don't want to.

That's the beauty of it. In the Qur'an it says that no soul shall have even an atom's weight of injustice weighed against it. So it is for you to accept or reject. Same goes for me or anyone else.

Bring something better if you have proof.

[This message has been edited by Mr Xtreme (edited July 06, 1999).]

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Roman,
The whole concept of the Quran is to convince the humanity to submit to the will of Allah, willingly or unwillingly, whether we like it or not, whether we understand it or not. There are no ifs and buts in Islam. If you don't find anything rational or logical in your thoughts about a certain commandment of Allah then its owing to your own weakness of mind in comprehending it. Allah's laws are perfect and as such are immutable. For the very same reason Allah has reminded us, time and again, the consequences faced by the people who rebelled against the commandments of Allah. Most of the times it is the arrogant who would reject the commandments of Allah, people in love with their own ideas of morality and what not. This is shirk since you are in essence obeying your own nafs instead of your Creator. There is nothing in the holy Quran that is against the nature or has an inherent injustice towards any gender or race. Its wider implications are known to all. Every law of the Quran has a wisdom and reason which may not become too apparent to you at first, but it is for the best of the society at large such as severe punishments to curb anti-social behavior and veiling of women to prevent the society from becoming too promiscuous in morals.

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QUOTE: "Every law of the Quran has a wisdom and reason which may not become too apparent to you at first, but it is for the best of the society at large such as severe punishments to curb anti-social behavior and veiling of women to prevent the society from becoming too promiscuous in morals."

An interesting case in point, Iqadeer, since we are discussing absolute values which are described in the Quran. Where does the Quran mention the veiling of women? I believe that it does not.

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Actually when I read the word "Camille" I did think it was a male name. Why do you think it sounds feminine, NYA?

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Assalam Allaikum,
The issue whether the ruling of the veil comes directly from the Quran is a complete subject in itself and therefore must be dealt with in a seperate thread. For this reason, I am presenting the ruling of the muslim scholars regarding this commandment of Allah in a new thread. Please read it.

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No need to list the top 20 as I agree with you that these values are genrally the same. But lets assume that you do not believe in any religion/God?hearafter etc at all, obviously that will not mean that you do not hold any of the values which might be in the Quran or any other book. For example a non beleiver may say that one should give to the poor, but WHY should one give to the poor? They will probably respond and say it's a human obligation, I'd say who has put this obligation on me? - There will be no reasonable answer. Such feeling will probably be in their subconcious that since society values these matters, therefore these ought to be done for the sake of becoming respectable in the society. or it would have been the result of traditional and inherited belief. By appealing to these emotions, you can get some one do good work provisionally but cannot make this work to be a routine of his life; you cannot produce permanence in it, while character is the very name of permanence and changlessness in behaviour. The surety of this permanence can be nothing but the belief in the true 'concept of life.' That is why the Ho ly Quran invites people who are already the followers of religions, as well as those who acknowledge any religion to profess faith, accept the concepts of life which are the very essence of its ' Order.'

Regarding the other major religions, as muslims we believe that proper and true teachings were revealed to all the messengers of the Almighty God on their own turns but these teachings are now not found in their pristine form in the so-called heavenly books available among the followers of these religions. Morals and values do exist but are subjective and not absolute (see Mr Xtremes post) Islam provides such concepts on which the whole edifice of human life is raised and where every aspect of life is embodiment of higher values. These concepts (concept of God,relationships btwn God and Man,Man and universe, Man and man, actctions and consequences) only exist in Islam today which entitles it to become the system of life established on right lines and surety to human achievement and prosperity. - By no means I am saying that this is the position of the muslims today, we are far from it.

"He (God) has been bestowed with potentials as realizable possibilities for leading a life higher than that of the physical life at the animal level. The development of these potentialities is the goal of the human life. If man develops the potentialities of the physical life only, he gets the comforts and forces of the physical world but never does it come to his lot the higher life at the human level, which the Holy Quran denotes as the paradisiacal life.

This development of the human personality can take place in a system that is established on the foundations of PERMANENT VALUES. This development is the other name of 'the natural consequences of actions.' Good actions are those which promote stability and integration of the human SELF, the evil are those which cause it to grow weak and disintegrate. The result of each action draws up concomitantly on the human personality. This is its ROLL OF CONDUCT, which in the words of the Holy Quran, is hung around the neck of every one and opens up on the eve of manifestation of results. The human personality developed on a set criterion, will be able to pass through the next evolutionary stages of life.... This is called the paradisiacal life in the hereafter. That, which does not come up to that standard, will stop its development..... This is the life of Hell. The Holy Quran has interpreted it as measures ( of good deeds) being heavier or lighter "so the one whose measure weighs heavy will have a pleasing life and the one whose measure weighs lighter, abyss will be his abode." (Al-Quran101/6-9)"

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Roman,

And, ok, let's say writting Quran like that (which would result in 72 sects, for example) was intentional and planned and all, but then you are going to punish those people who won't be able to understand what you mean? and have the "wrong interpretaion" of it? Something is wrong in the whole story... something is terribly missing.

" Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light. Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein(Forever).(2:256,257)

God needs couple of courses in effective written communication. Because more than half the time what He/She/It says is so ambigous that everyone has his/her own interpretation! Come on, give me a break, you want to communicate with zillions of people in generations and times apart and this is how you would do it?

"This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.(2:2)"

Have you had an iota of fear and respect in you for Allah, you wouldn't dare to question the wisdom and knowledge of Allah so blatantly.

It all lies in the attitude. When you pick up the Quran to recite it or read its meanings, you must have absolutely no question in your mind that it is the word of Allah. If you just pick it up as a mythical story book, it will further exacerbate your confusion and you will definately be led astray. With this book, Allah guides many and misguides many as well. Don't demand from the Quran to give you the proofs that you require for it to be proven as the word of Allah. Read it with humbleness and the meaning will Inshallah be clear to you as never before. In short, don't critique it, since this is the highest form of disrespect you can show to Allah.

To really experience the marvel of the Quran one must be well versed in the arabic language to admire its unparalelled composition and prose. Unfortunately, for many of us, this is not possible since we are not arabs. Otherwise this is the Quran, to which even the staunchest of the enemies of Islam heard and were convinced that its source cannot be human but divine. This is the Quran to which the Jinns heard and said:

"Say: It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened (to the Qur'an). They said, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital!

'It gives guidance to the Right, and we have believed therein: we shall not join (in worship) any (gods) with our Lord.

'And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord: He has taken neither a wife nor a son.

'There were some foolish ones among us, who used to utter extravagant lies against Allah.

'But we do think that no man or spirit should say aught that untrue against Allah. (72:1,2,3,4,5)"

[This message has been edited by iqadeer (edited July 07, 1999).]

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Camille: Human actions, behaviors, and beliefs are anything but possess "Permanent Values"... We experience growth and change in every aspect of our evolutionary cycle. Any belief-system which will "prescribe" to values not accomodating these dynamics of human life, times, and evolution both in terms of physical and cognitive development cannot render the right answer.

God's promise of paradise after good deeds in life and the way it's promoted, represented, and fantacized is childish. If man can develop strong believe in an unseenable creator and life after death, then he sure enough doesn't need to dream of beautiful women in paradise to help the poor.

Paradise is just an excuse of longevity and prosperity of life in a different context, whether it (paradise) exists or not. God uses it, we use it, for the assurance of a "sweet hereafter"... however, motivating the self to perform good deeds solely, and absolutely for the sake of paradise is, well, childish and idiotic... human spirtuallity is beyond that... the self of a man is a lot stronger than the weakness of falling for the promise of paradise out of helping the poor! Modern man's civility, morality, and beliefs are beyond that level of conferment to self-assurance... like I said, human life in evolving, in all proportions!

Whether or not paradise exists, the idea of virtue itself is PERMENANT... without even being defined by any religion... however, the nature of its goodness will change, sometimes slightly sometimes drastically, as human life evolves - on its own.

Objectivity and religion stand apart and in contrast to each other. Religious beliefs, holy books, and concept of God (and gods) differ among entire population of humans, geographically and spiritually. Declaring Quranic values an objective measure of human values will be incorrect. Why? Because Geeta has a different belief system... who is there to decide which is right and which is wrong? Who be the judge? What would be the parameters of measurement? You stay with your Quran and we stay with our Geeta... hence we have our subjective approach towards life based on our subjective religions.

That's exactly why Quran holds as much "absolute truth" as any other holy/religious book: They all have different points of reference to define the "absolute truth" itself.

There is actually no such thing called "absolute truth" when it comes to religions since religions are subjective matters. Human coginition will always find different "absolute truths" in different epochs of its existence on this planet. The idea of sticking to one "absolute truth" itself will change, as its point of reference will change.

Ok, now question of the week:

Does God:

1- Dictate
2- Suggest
3- Both of the above; depending upon the context
4- Depends upon how you look at it

[This message has been edited by Roman (edited July 07, 1999).]

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But iqadeer,

[quote]
...If you just pick it up as a mythical story book, it will further exacerbate your confusion and you will definately be led astray. With this book, Allah guides many and misguides many as well. Don't demand from the Quran to give you the proofs that you require for it to be proven as the word of Allah. Read it with humbleness and the meaning will Inshallah be clear to you as never before. In short, don't critique it, since this is the highest form of disrespect you can show to Allah.
[/quote]
the essence of the above could be true about any book! If we apply the same sense to any other book, then it means it's the beliefe that would drive our learning and value system out of Quran, not the Quran itself! If that is the case then belief itself varies among individuals and hence it is a subjective matter... which implies that "absolute truth" claimed by Camille and Xtreme does not hold validity (yeah, it's my day to play devil's advocate).

Now the flip side to your argument is that Quranic value system comes first and then the belief. If that is the case then Quran must prove its commonality among the masses...in other words, it must hold clear, common content for effective communication. It must achieve the merits it cliams to the average eye, whether of a believer or a non-believer.

Now, I am not implying Quran holds invalidity or validity... all I am implying is that if the proof of validity of what it says appears ambigous to an average person (with or without belief), then don't defend it as having this mysterious power of putting one on right path and the other on the wrong based solely on belief! This ain't enough in itself!

Lastly,

[quote]
"Say: It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns listened (to the Qur'an). They said, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital!
[/quote]

Did you write the above quote to convince/prove you point? How can you quote an entity to itself as a proof?

[This message has been edited by Roman (edited July 07, 1999).]

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Roman,

the essence of the above could be true about any book! If we apply the same sense to any other book, then it means it's the beliefe that would drive......

I don't think so! Once again you are judging the Quran by putting it at par with any other ordinary book. The Quran is peerless in its power. Perhaps, not so to you but countless others who are present and many more who are dead derived spiritual strength from the Quran. If it is read with the intention of seeking true guidance, it guides its reader. Again I urge you, to change your perspective when reading the Quran, and read it with utmost sincerety and respect and you will definately see its power to move you. Notwithstanding the fact that it is in arabic, you will nevertheless feel a sort of uplifting through its recitation provided you wholeheartedly learn proper intonation and recitation.

The proof of the Quran being the true word of Allah is that if you read it sincerely, it will remove all your doubts and worries and will provide the answers to all the questions that so much confuse and confound us in our daily lives. There is no other book that can claim to do that, whether today's Bible, Geeta or you name it. Second, there are no contradictions in the Quran unlike numerous in the Bible. The stories in the Quran are extraordinary in nature, however, none of them can be rejected as being too outside the realm of scientific thought. Besides, if you believe that there is a creator so powerful that He created this entire universe without any one's help or counsel, then believing those stories will be not so difficult. I, truly believe that tiny things that happen to us in our daily affairs have a rhyme and a reason, and they just don't happen at random. It is just too much for me to believe that in this universe that displays so much order, precision and regularity, it all came into existence without any thought, planning and organizing on any one's part. This idea is simply not acceptable to me.

Did you write the above quote to convince/prove you point? How can you quote
an entity to itself as a proof?

Yes, I did that on purpose since I believe in every word of the Quran and to me the biggest proof of Quran is the Quran itself.

Lastly, to know the real faith (imaan), you need to experience it. It is something that cannot be put into words. When Allah enlightens somebody by favoring him or her with guidance, they feel very easy in obeying Allah and accepting His commandments. However, a person with no guidance from Allah will feel extremely difficult, almost impossible to believe in Him.

My purpose here is not to criticize you, but to make you understand that Allah is the one who guides people, and Allah guides whomsoever he likes. But if someone shows desire to be guided, then Allah will most definately guide such a person. And Allah knows best.