Modi in Congress

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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I don't know what sort of Jana these people imagine India to be... if it were, why would there be so many NRIs?

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A rather interesting read minus the drivel Ajazali posts.

Overall, when one looks at indicators such as economic, social, political, environmental etc I believe it is fair to say India is ahead. Some by a large margin others not so much. Considering both countries started off together and yes albeit India got the better deal in regards to existing assets/infrastructure Pakistan should not be so behind.

We can talk about roads, transit systems and poverty but the crux of it all comes down to one factor STABILITY. For me, this is the major issue Pakistan lacks when compared to India. From the onset Pakistan has lacked this factor and thus naturally suffered as a consequence. Unfortunately, Jinnah died less than a year of independence and solid foundations were not laid for a political system that was fair, transparent, consensus building and more importantly law abiding. This allowed manipulation by those who were to come and now we have a state that in my books is in disarray.

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You seem so offended by 20 years mark, fine I change it to 20 months or even 20 weeks.

The fact that whatever progress India has made is a result of the work they started mere 20 years ago, time alone did not fix anything for them. They made efforts. Up until 90s, Pakistan's economy was stronger than India, now all your neighbours are pretty much India's economic partners with you having no diplomatic clout (let alone economic) in either of your neighbouring countries. I bet in 90s very few over confident Pakistanis thought that in 'poor ugly and dirty' India would one day be in a position to do a seamless economic encirclement all around their prettier looking country. So Indian Gov must've done something right in the 90s that likes of PPP and PMLN couldn't do (apart from making the country bankrupt with corruption).

Now their economy is developed and states are autonomous, systems lot more devolved with more more funds coming at their disposal, it probably wouldn't take them long to upgrade their infrastructure. Results are fairly immediate anyway. But the investment in education and reforms they made long time ago, took their time to show results. In fact India is still pushing for further economic and social reforms. It's just sad to see Pakistanis being so superficial and intellectually hallow and never appreciating the importance of reforms in building the country (considering how long it takes to reap the benefits of reforms)

There is absolutely no advocacy of any type of reforms in Pakistan. Just pathetic to say the least.

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Good for them... but don't throw your own country under the bus. have some pride, a little self respect.
India has a lot of problems, and their system is far from perfect. One reason for a recent down turn in the Indian economy was inflated beaurocracy. land acquisition is a mess, licenses are difficult to get. there is a lack of consistency between states. there are a number of major reforms that they need, but have been unable to push through due to the fractious nature of politics. even the recent increase in their GDP is due to a change in how they calculate it... I don't understand why Pakistanis sell the selves short like this. I expect such talk from Indians, but not from Pakistanis themselves. sad.

and the Indian economy is developing, it's not developed. Pakistan's economy is also developing, as it's govt... and there is always opposition to reform. India's Modi has realized this as well, since he has yet to pass any significant reforms the country needs.

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In the end what counts is the living conditions of an aam adami - Attached is the latest UN/World Bank report for SA… Today the International standard of below the poverty line is $1.90/day… India despite inheriting every thing was ahead of Pak and China but today its quite the opposite. In the end why compare with India why such an obsession? Lets look at other countries in the neighborhood that have made impressive progress and why not follow their example eg SL, China. And so what if Modi Ji maharaj is addressing the Congress - Other Indian PMs have done too, its all about US interest if Taliban can be equated to the “moral equivalent of Amreekas founding fathers” than whats wrong with Modi Ji Maharaj making a speech on the hill… Nothing.

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Yes easy to put every thing on PM and easily forget the Gang in GHQ that took over Foreign Policy and their Failures. Govt is doing right, let these Generals get exposed. They wanted Foreign policy they have it, not that 67 years of Failure have taught them something. I was watching a Congressman on Defense committe making fun of Pakistani General keep coming to US uninvited. Generals think US listen to them but for US these bloody generals are just order takers.

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No Pakistan Deserves whomever is elected! This wet dreams of comparing with other leaders needs to stop or try to put things in Context. Other Countries DO NOT have Rogue Armies that have lost every war but keep winning agains unarmed Civilian Govts. Other Countries Do not have Generals that will sell their Mothers for $20 or Green CArd or dinner (Exact words of US Diplomats), Other Countries have Militaries, In Pakistan Army as Country. Nawaz Cant be compared to these people because these people are not dealing with loser snakes sitting in GHQ or for that matter any civilian politician. To Nawaz Credit, with out any arms, not only he has managed to survived but slowly he is putting death strangle around these so called generals.

So STOP having Wet dreams about other leaders and try to understand the actual Issues Pakistan has or better yet instead of having wet dreams accept the ones who won and most probably will win in 2018 as well.

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Pakistan's foreign office is located in GHQ. Utter failures of Army for 69 years has not taught them anything but they want to control Foreign policy not knowing or not accepting the fact that they are not considered any thing other than agents by others. Gotta call Spade a Spade. Put the finger of blame where it really happens, the most powerful and Rogue institute of Pakistan Army. 0-4 vs. India but successful in every war against Unarmed Civilian Govts.

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It’s great to see posts without any personal attacks on posters critiquing PMLN - wow!! - I enjoy reading through Med911’s posts. Thanks for bringing your points across in most civil manner than any of the Pro PMLN supporter I have ever seen on any forum. Much appreciated.

I deduce, the recent posts in this thread’s debate seems to be fixated around a number i.e., 20 years, I am sure the OP referenced it to juxtapose the overall development of India and Pakistan while differentiating between the quality of leadership of current PM’s of both countries.

Pro Nawaz members are construing if Jolie termed India as Norway (HDI Rank -1) and Pakistan as Niger (HDI Rank – 188). Fact of the matter is; based on several of the Indexes that makes up HDI score India is ranked at 130 and Pakistan is at 147 (see my earlier thread - http://www.paklinks.com/gs/pakistan-affairs/663831-pakistan-failed-rulers.html?highlight=human+Development+Index). Poverty (E.g., Wage Per Day criterion) is one of the many indexes used in calculating HDI; what matters is overall score and not one index when determining the overall state of the country.

India is definitely in better condition as of today in Life Expectancy (68 Yrs vs 66.2 Yrs), Education – Expected Years of Schooling (11.7 Yrs vs. 7.8 Yrs – This is a huge and PIVOTAL gap and our 25 million kids are outside school system and we are obsessed with Orange Train and Red Metro and now who knows Blue Airports – talk about priorities - Danish Schools- Anyone ?!?).

Multidimensional Poverty is marginally better in Pakistan; and this does get trickier to address in a country 6 times bigger in population base and also in area as outreach will be a bigger issue for India for sure.

In Per Capita Income, India is higher by more than 12%. Import & Export as % of GDP of India is whopping 20.2% better than Pakistan and only in current year Pakistan’s Self-Professed Guru of Economic who has been termed as Pride of Entire Ummah by N$ from his leisure cum health checkup sojourn in London has admitted to failure in missing the Export targets – Again!

Some ardent fan-atic of PMLN pointed towards my hate for PMLN; I do not put veil on it and I openly say I not only hate PMLN (of current state) but I abhor it for all it has done to my country – and I am OK even if no one subscribes to my opinion on this forum – as most are enlightened and I for one am ill-informed, uneducated, ignorant, and illiterate but fact is that I have has been unfortunate enough to have seen them mushroom under the tutelage of worst ruler Pakistan could ever see ever as closely as possible by a non-family member to personally know them over a period of time from their houses in H Block Model Town to current their abode in Jatti Umrah as one of my cousins in daughter in law of one of the Sharif brothers a well. Any info I have is not from second hand source - my opinion is based on personal interaction and documents and financials that I have seen myself while working in a bank and umpteen other first hand sources.

Now all of the above was deviation from the core topic; I admit and please my apologies for that!

However a parallel comparison was drawn towards; N$ and ironically the best buddy of N$ i.e., Shri Narendra Modi who was probably the only leader N$ himself called to let him know about his khair - o - afiyat from operating table in London – Am I correct?

Why so much fixation with Modi by N$; I can dwell upon that in a separate thread.

Modi has also an extremely difficult country to lead with at least 9 recognized religions and Muslim population almost equivalent to current population of Pakistan and almost 50 plus separatist movements out of which at least 10 are quite active starting from Kashmir, it still has aftershocks of Khalistan movement – albeit dying now. Nagaland, Sikkim, Bodo are perhaps fueled by our near and dear partner in CPEC. Assam will be even bigger headache than Kashmir in coming years, Tamilnadu was also a big one and similarly, in Central India; Maoist, Naxaties and likes are not secession proponents but still they are constant headache for any Government in India.

India has Muslim population equivalent to Pakistan (according to census) which means 15% of it’s population is religiously as opposite as one can be to ruling party’s crux (voter base). And there are 50 plus countries in the world; who share same religion with 15% of India’s population.

Just reverse the situation; and say Pakistan had 2.7 crore Hindus living in Pakistan; how would N$ have governed it – Joseph Colony in Lahore (2013) was burnt under watchful eyes of both Sharif’s micromanaging every ASI’s transfer in Punjab and not a dot moved, don’t stop here - straight firing killed more than dozen in Model Town; and no one on earth knows who ordered who? Just as an example, do we all know who created the monster of Rana Maqbool the then IGP Punjab – he managed unnamed Hit Squad for PMLN – everything was settled in Police Muqabla where and when likes of Justice Qayoom were not available. Are we really kidding ourselves re what state are we in?

Again in one post; the defense of Nawaz was made by terming him as cautious; cautious and slipshod are not the same – let me Google it; as one poster advises me to use Google when in doubt e.g., re CABG procedures and coronary issues– so let me try it today – Yes, I Googled it.

Caution means - (of a person) careful to avoid potential problems or dangers. And………… Slipshod means (typically of a person) or method of work) characterized by a lack of care, thought, or organization.

Reference your points in bold above; had Pakistani’s not concerned about it; they would have not been pointing out blunders of PMLN - but singing a long N$ and his troupe and doing happy dance in Mayfair-London

PMLN ruler-ship is not only confused itself; but muddled narrative PMLN has built shows in its support base (not directed at you at all - Guaranteed :)) as well; in one breath; they holler “India – Pakistan Bhai Bhai” and fully support N$ challenging Pakistan Resolution and basic ideology of Pakistan while speaking in India (Two Nation Theory is idiocy in current Pakistani PM’s eyes - you want me to post his that address too?) and in the same breath; bash people for stating the fact that India is definitely ahead than Pakistan – from a bigger picture’s standpoint.

Also, please decide if Jindal’s JV in Russia and now soon in Peru is good or bad and give uneducated and illiterate persons like me some enlightenment. Thanks!!

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The market cap of the Senseless Index dwarfs it's counterpart.

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Summary of all the posts in this thread

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Apologies to OP (Jolie) for derailing the thread.

I remember when I started my first an internship (summer school); the guy I was reporting to was also a Wharton grad in Finance and not only that a topper too. I was young (16) and wanted to impress him - of course :) so I looked at certain processes in the dept; and created a process map highlighting issues/problems. He looked at it; smiled and asked me, where is the important part?

Anyways, without getting too much lost in metaphysics, I always caution any end user of the Human Development Index report to consider its underlying premises carefully and further drilling down and cross referencing other sources; as it just gives pointers – quite credible, it does reflect as-is situation of developing countries much better than for developed countries because it was designed for them. Had this same index been created in last century, one of the weighted factors might well have been the religious characteristics of each of the nations population or patriotism after world wars etc., point being any ratings can never detach themselves from a degree of arbitrariness.

Now can we go back to original topic of comparing leadership qualities of ahem a prodigy of Martial Law Administrator vs Modi ?

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Economic factors have improved significantly in India. Everything else is relatively better. Social issues stil plague the country. Yesterday I read about the racism faced by African students in India. One was beaten to death recently. Also the blatant discrimination against castes and religious groups. Its apparently perfectly fine to advertise a rental and mention that you wont accept Muslims. Granted however, that such discrimination might be ignored, is not encouraged by the Indian govt as Anti-Ahmadi prejudice is espoused by Paks govt.
Environmental? What part of India's environment are we talking about? There as polluted if not more.

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Im not a supporter of any party, I just think people should be fair in their assessment.

Modis popularity is in my understanding, based essentially on his personal charisma and not on his actual track record. Even in India that track record is debated with his critics saying that people exagerate his accomplishments in Gujrat and that other state have had a higher rate of net growth. Sharif on the other hand has a different approach to governance and is obviously overshadowed by populist Modi. ComparingNS to Modi is not very fair.

As I said before, they are ahead currently, but no significantly so. For example, life expectancy in Pakistan went up apparently to 65.5 for Males and 67.7 for women. Birth rate decreased to 1.89… Indias life expectancy is currently 66.97 for men and 69.4 for women… Thats not a big difference. And most other socil indicators are within reach of Pakistan.

The point is, the gao between the two countries is not a chasm. Pakistan you must remember, had a very tough decade. From 2005 to just last year, we had an insurgency in Balochistan, and a virtual no go in FATA. Right now, the country has been the most stable its been in years. And from what I see, the indicators are pointing in the right direction. Highest economic growth this year, which would have been higher but for lower agricultural yields. But still increasing GDP year on year.

As for the Orange line… At the risk of sounding condescending, mass transit is not a luxury, its an essential component in an efficient functional economy. Schools and Hospitals become redundant when people cant move around efficiently in your cities. PMLN should commended for their mass transit and Highway system. Granted the do still need to invest more in education and health.

At the end of the day, the reason you cant hate the PMLN is because its only now gotten a chance for genuine rule. You cant make a valid assesment based on the past because they never really had an oppurtunity to prove themselves. The PPP was in power last time and they effectively demonstrated their incompetance. Hence criticsm of them is validated, more or less. You have to give the PMLN a chance to fail on its own before condemning it. However, for the most part its seems they are doing a descent job.

I dont really care about their stance on Pakistans “ideology” or two state whatever… Certainly they could do a better job in protecting minorities, but bigotry in Pakistan is an endemic issue that no one party could fix. There are many laws in place that a deeply offensive and profoundly wrong on every level, but the govt is powerless on the matter.

Give it time, be patient. Pakistan is finally stable after a long time.

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Nah. I just wanted to use the word Senseless.

I have no idea of the economic output of either country.

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"Give it time, be patient. Pakistan is finally stable after a long time."

Is that you, Misbah?

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Respectfully I disagree with several points such as highest economic growth - if you are referring to GDP of 4.7% which I believe (separate topic) is not more than 3.4% although SPDC pegs it at 3.1% is quite embarrassing for a Govt which has absolute majority (unlike PPP) for its 4th budget.

Law and order and security is due to Zarb e Azab which you and I both know started when no action was taken by political government and Army started it on its own even without informing the Govt as after repeated meetings Govt was reluctant ant to give clear direction.

PMLN can't have it both ways; if they blame failure of Foreign Policy on Army, then in all fairness it should give credit for internal security to army and accept failure of police and other civilian law enforcement agencies.

I never stated roads are not important; I am talking about trophy projects.

Karachi (perhaps get Pakistan almost 65% revenue) gets 19 billion for Mass Transit - good! Lahore gets 30 billion - why?

Additionally 170 billions earmarked for Orange Line and around 45 billion for Metro in Islamanad and Rawalpindi and CPEC gets slashed by another 9 billion.

Agri sector which employs 37% of labour force, gets break in fertilizer way less proportionate to what has happened in international markets.

Sindh gets 215 million for higher education for its 20 universities and no new project while Punjab gets 610 million with several new projects; and I am not even going into supplementary grants!

I am not fan of India - but believe it should get credit where due; its way more trickier country to run than Pakistan.

It's running smoothly (comparably) because institutions are working better than Pakistan.

If Modi or even Obama was PM of Pakistan with current systems; who knows they might have also bought same properties like Nawaz through corruption - because they would have known same tricks to beat the system.

If you believe the beneficiary of current rotten system will be interested in bringing changes to systems and strengthening them to the point that these undeclared kings become accountable then I envy your optimism!

Nawaz has always weakened the institutions whenever he came into power exactly toeing to the line of his godfather Zia.

He has destroyed, customs, judiciary, police, revenue, ecp, nadra, secp - tell me the name of one institution which he has strengthened in last 4 years. To think that he would wave the magic wand in his fifth year and all ills will be reversed - I apologize - I can't buy that argument.

That's all I can type on my little phone - rest later!

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anyone can run the country on imf loans, pml-n is doing nothing special.

they've added so much debt/loan to the country alongwith ppp.

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Not only that;

PPP's Govt gets dismissed using 58(2) B the SCP upholds President' Leghari's decision.

PMLN's Govt gets dismissed on exact same issues; its restored in jiffy and entire family of Justice Nasim gets perks even some members gets settled in UAE.

Sitting PM's lone surviving brother gets killed in Karachi and not a single head rolls - this is PPP.

Hudaybia Paper Mills case gets proven; and then same court quashes it. This is PML's power.

PMLN attacks Supreme Court with 500 hooligans sent in buses and 4 Judges had to save their lives and nothing happens not even a single person bats an eye. This is PMLN.

An affidavit under oath is submitted which corroborates perfectly well with London's Queens Benchs' verdict, but innocent Dar claims its under pressure- no one asks then how come it matches perfectly with all other evidences from other sources. This is for PMLN.

ZAB gets hanged because he was from PPP - has even a councillor of PMLN ever gotten caught and hanged by same judiciary ?

When selective amnesia is multiples by selective justice the result will not be any different than what Pakistan has seen and it will be like this till we start calling the spade a spade.

PPP has been on the receiving end and PMLN and likes will always take advantage of this - and now they present themselves as revoluumationary democrats and twist the opinion through media and public buys it.

Since 1982 Nawaz had been in the lap of non democratic forces, he was with every General that was against PPP till 1999. 17 years Pro establishment.

Then signs NRO with another General in 2007 and then plays to the tune of Kayani for 5 years and remains pro establishment and pro iftikhar's judiciary and no one says anything.

Now due to actions Gen Raheel gets popular and Nawaz gets unpopular due to his own actions so let's start throwing dirt on Gen Raheel for being popular. Oh merey Bhai - you can't always have it both ways; now Nawaz is uneasy with Gen Sharif because of his popularity - how and why is he popular ? Did he overstep Nawaz on any issue; the why get insecure when Nawaz is not performing himself.

Has he took on PPP's corruption that he promised?

Has he improved tax collection in last four budgets that he promised?

Has he been able to reduce load shedding that he vowed to eradicate in 2 years?

Has he been able to increase any of 12 major indicators of the country's health in last four budgets?

Has been able to increase the exports of the country in line with what he promised?

Has he been able to provide clean drinking water to 60% of population in Pakistan?

Has he been able to increase the enrolment rate significantly in schools in Punjab in last 9 years of his rule?

What sector has improved if he has 55% majority in NA and 32% of popular vote which PPP did not have and was constantly blackmailed by MQM, JUIF, ANP, and even PMLN in Balochistan.

What's stopping them to make any headway in any sector like education, health, police, judiciary, NAB, NADRA, customs, FBR and the list goes on.

The best argument we get is that in the first four years everything deteriorated on every index and trend is downward but in fifth year everything will be reversed.

What changes have been made in the election system; it will still in 2018 revolve around the

  1. Voter intimidation
  2. Ballot Fraud And
  3. Bribery

And Raiwaind Brand of Jamhooriyat will take place till 2023, 2028, 2033, 2038 and so on and we will still be saying - things will get better with time.

Bhai jaan - things need to move in right direction first - to get substantially better in the end.

Systems status quo and dream of development - Will never - NEVER happen!

This will only make rich super rich and poor is already at the level where he can't go any further down - had Pak not been agri based economy there would have been hunger too but then we all should believe and think all is well and keep quiet and wait for one fine morning where our economy growth rate will surpass India, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka's through divine intervention by Sharif's grandson the then King of Pakistan!

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Institutions take time to develop... In the context of Pakistan, those institutions are only now beginning to function. PMLN needs to be allowed time and u have to be patient. I'm confident that over time things will run smoother, and the signs are positive. debate the numbers all u like, overall the direction of the country is the right one. Agriculture was down but industry was up. with a good monsoon, agriculture will also improve.I c reason for optimism. Institutions suffer when democracy is interupted. let the PMLN do their thing, if they fail it's on their own merit.