Re: Modi in Congress
anyone can run the country on imf loans, pml-n is doing nothing special.
they've added so much debt/loan to the country alongwith ppp.
Then vote them out next time around...
Re: Modi in Congress
I think you should just leave Pakistan! Its apparent from the selective BS posted below and your conclusions you have no hope! Country is getting better, things don't change over night. PPP was fiasco, kicked out by people. If you dont like all this too bad. As for changes to election system and your three phony points, get your head out of your rear. What ballot fraud, like 35 punctures lies or the other lies, what voter intimidation, what bribery, one that has no proof and exists only in brains of losers ?
My question to you and likes of you would be, is there a depth of being a loser ? How hard it is to accept that you LOST and no there were no conspiracies or election frauds or any thing. I take you hate Nawaz Sharif, fine but does that mean you get so much negative that your entire judgement is clouded. Shameless and pathetic display I am sorry to say.
As for your crap starting with "Has he.. yada yada yada" .. Answer to all of those is Yes, every thing is better than PPP and getting better. Whether you like it or not, accept it or not, thats the fact.
I do agree with you on 2018, because of lunatic khan's hate for Nawaz and making it so personal so much hate now exist on both sides of the fence there is no way votes will switch. PMLN will win 2018, Pakistan will continue to get better and Losers like you will still be crying. Sorry kiddo fact!
Not only that;
PPP's Govt gets dismissed using 58(2) B the SCP upholds President' Leghari's decision.
PMLN's Govt gets dismissed on exact same issues; its restored in jiffy and entire family of Justice Nasim gets perks even some members gets settled in UAE.
Sitting PM's lone surviving brother gets killed in Karachi and not a single head rolls - this is PPP.
Hudaybia Paper Mills case gets proven; and then same court quashes it. This is PML's power.
PMLN attacks Supreme Court with 500 hooligans sent in buses and 4 Judges had to save their lives and nothing happens not even a single person bats an eye. This is PMLN.
An affidavit under oath is submitted which corroborates perfectly well with London's Queens Benchs' verdict, but innocent Dar claims its under pressure- no one asks then how come it matches perfectly with all other evidences from other sources. This is for PMLN.
ZAB gets hanged because he was from PPP - has even a councillor of PMLN ever gotten caught and hanged by same judiciary ?
When selective amnesia is multiples by selective justice the result will not be any different than what Pakistan has seen and it will be like this till we start calling the spade a spade.
PPP has been on the receiving end and PMLN and likes will always take advantage of this - and now they present themselves as revoluumationary democrats and twist the opinion through media and public buys it.
Since 1982 Nawaz had been in the lap of non democratic forces, he was with every General that was against PPP till 1999. 17 years Pro establishment.
Then signs NRO with another General in 2007 and then plays to the tune of Kayani for 5 years and remains pro establishment and pro iftikhar's judiciary and no one says anything.
Now due to actions Gen Raheel gets popular and Nawaz gets unpopular due to his own actions so let's start throwing dirt on Gen Raheel for being popular. Oh merey Bhai - you can't always have it both ways; now Nawaz is uneasy with Gen Sharif because of his popularity - how and why is he popular ? Did he overstep Nawaz on any issue; the why get insecure when Nawaz is not performing himself.
Has he took on PPP's corruption that he promised?
Has he improved tax collection in last four budgets that he promised?
Has he been able to reduce load shedding that he vowed to eradicate in 2 years?
Has he been able to increase any of 12 major indicators of the country's health in last four budgets?
Has been able to increase the exports of the country in line with what he promised?
Has he been able to provide clean drinking water to 60% of population in Pakistan?
Has he been able to increase the enrolment rate significantly in schools in Punjab in last 9 years of his rule?
What sector has improved if he has 55% majority in NA and 32% of popular vote which PPP did not have and was constantly blackmailed by MQM, JUIF, ANP, and even PMLN in Balochistan.
What's stopping them to make any headway in any sector like education, health, police, judiciary, NAB, NADRA, customs, FBR and the list goes on.
The best argument we get is that in the first four years everything deteriorated on every index and trend is downward but in fifth year everything will be reversed.
What changes have been made in the election system; it will still in 2018 revolve around the
- Voter intimidation
- Ballot Fraud And
- Bribery
And Raiwaind Brand of Jamhooriyat will take place till 2023, 2028, 2033, 2038 and so on and we will still be saying - things will get better with time.
Bhai jaan - things need to move in right direction first - to get substantially better in the end.
Systems status quo and dream of development - Will never - NEVER happen!
This will only make rich super rich and poor is already at the level where he can't go any further down - had Pak not been agri based economy there would have been hunger too but then we all should believe and think all is well and keep quiet and wait for one fine morning where our economy growth rate will surpass India, Bangladesh, and Sri Lanka's through divine intervention by Sharif's grandson the then King of Pakistan!
Re: Modi in Congress
So Genius why didnt Army started this in 2006, 2007. 2008 or why did it started after 50,000 were dead? I take you like poolish boots but care to explain why Zarb azab started only when a Civilian Govt gave full support and taking BS for it. Its funny that 93000 goes to Jails without fighting but Politicians are at fault, Worlds most wanted man is enjoying Porn 5 minutes for Military academy, US raids and Humiliates Army but the then ISI chief / Shuja POS wants to punish Politicians. I can go on and on but are you this Blind that you can simply say Army did Zarb Azab on its own after 50,000 killed by Animals they created and Politicians have no credit. Shameless and Pathetic!
As for Why lahore gets more than Kararachi, go ask respective Provincial Govts. Fact that PPP Sindh Govt sucks doesnt mean its fault of Shahbaz. You seems like an arm chair General or Politician who fails to look at whole picture and ignores the past trying to blame every thing on Nawaz Sharif whose total rule is about 6 years over three govts. Reading your comments, looks like Nawaz Destroyed every thing but others heros that rules Pakistan directly or indirectly for 60 years had nothing to do with all this.
Nawaz has destroed Custom, Judiciary, Police, Revenue, ECP, NADRA, SECP... wow Speechless!
Friend you are probably be going to be a sore loser for a very long time.
Respectfully I disagree with several points such as highest economic growth - if you are referring to GDP of 4.7% which I believe (separate topic) is not more than 3.4% although SPDC pegs it at 3.1% is quite embarrassing for a Govt which has absolute majority (unlike PPP) for its 4th budget.
Law and order and security is due to Zarb e Azab which you and I both know started when no action was taken by political government and Army started it on its own even without informing the Govt as after repeated meetings Govt was reluctant ant to give clear direction.
PMLN can't have it both ways; if they blame failure of Foreign Policy on Army, then in all fairness it should give credit for internal security to army and accept failure of police and other civilian law enforcement agencies.
I never stated roads are not important; I am talking about trophy projects.
Karachi (perhaps get Pakistan almost 65% revenue) gets 19 billion for Mass Transit - good! Lahore gets 30 billion - why?
Additionally 170 billions earmarked for Orange Line and around 45 billion for Metro in Islamanad and Rawalpindi and CPEC gets slashed by another 9 billion.
Agri sector which employs 37% of labour force, gets break in fertilizer way less proportionate to what has happened in international markets.
Sindh gets 215 million for higher education for its 20 universities and no new project while Punjab gets 610 million with several new projects; and I am not even going into supplementary grants!
I am not fan of India - but believe it should get credit where due; its way more trickier country to run than Pakistan.
It's running smoothly (comparably) because institutions are working better than Pakistan.
If Modi or even Obama was PM of Pakistan with current systems; who knows they might have also bought same properties like Nawaz through corruption - because they would have known same tricks to beat the system.
If you believe the beneficiary of current rotten system will be interested in bringing changes to systems and strengthening them to the point that these undeclared kings become accountable then I envy your optimism!
Nawaz has always weakened the institutions whenever he came into power exactly toeing to the line of his godfather Zia.
He has destroyed, customs, judiciary, police, revenue, ecp, nadra, secp - tell me the name of one institution which he has strengthened in last 4 years. To think that he would wave the magic wand in his fifth year and all ills will be reversed - I apologize - I can't buy that argument.
That's all I can type on my little phone - rest later!
Re: Modi in Congress
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Re: Modi in Congress
Institutions take time to develop... In the context of Pakistan, those institutions are only now beginning to function. PMLN needs to be allowed time and u have to be patient. I'm confident that over time things will run smoother, and the signs are positive. debate the numbers all u like, overall the direction of the country is the right one. Agriculture was down but industry was up. with a good monsoon, agriculture will also improve.I c reason for optimism. Institutions suffer when democracy is interupted. let the PMLN do their thing, if they fail it's on their own merit.
Democracy for most Pakistanis is General Elections - ONLY!
Elections without bringing in change to current systems will bring the same results - over and over again and again.
Corrupt to the core leadership will never bring any change where institutions get strengthened. If you believe; it has then give one example where any functioning arm of government has gotten better. Why on earth beneficiary of such system make himself/herself accountable? Please explain!
Do you think kingdoms in Muslim countries like Saudia, Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait or UAE would like to bring in democracy or any other system and want to be accountable to general public or would they want to keep their kingdom - same is situation in Pakistan.
Current rulers would always stay above law, and would never make systems larger than personalities. As an example, our bureaucracy is a laughingstock in 2016 when daughter of PM is issuing directives and they are respectfully carrying out orders.
Last week Principal Secretary of PM was called in by Maryam to issue directives re expediting the issues concerning Youth Program. I mean; seriously if Modi's son/daughter ever do that - the next day he would be resigning.
If you believe this PMLN government in last four years have brought in positive changes to strengthen any system please do point out so I can learn about positive factors that PMLN introduced.
I will wait for your post containing steps taken by PMLN to strengthen institutions! Thanks
Re: Modi in Congress
Just for those who believe ZeA was started by political Government; here's a brief: but since those who believe the above to be true based on yellow journalism - I do not expect anything but babblings to which no sane voice would respond to!
ZeA was started without any communique from political govt., plan was made and summary was sitting in MoD (Ministry of Defence) for two and half weeks; and there was reluctance of the Nawaz Sharif government to launch a full-fledged operation in NWA even though the army had planned the operation and briefings were given to both; Interior Minister and Defence Minister four weeks prior to launch of ZeA.
Launch of the operation was announced not by the civilian government but by the military spokesman, and the Prime Minister only rubber stamped the action the next day read NEXT DAY- suggests that the government was confronted with a fait accompli.
KPK CM claimed that neither he, nor the governor of the province who is the point person for FATA, nor even the Peshawar Corps Commander were aware of when the operation.
Keep dreaming - that any positive can happen from PMLN or its allies like JUIF!
Re: Modi in Congress
I think you should just leave Pakistan! Its apparent from the selective BS posted below and your conclusions you have no hope! Country is getting better, things don't change over night. PPP was fiasco, kicked out by people. If you dont like all this too bad. As for changes to election system and your three phony points,** get your head out of your rear.**
My question to you and likes of you would be, is there a depth of being a loser ? How hard it is to accept that you LOST and no there were no conspiracies or election frauds or any thing. I take you hate Nawaz Sharif, fine but does that mean you get so much negative that your entire judgement is clouded. Shameless and pathetic display I am sorry to say.
As for your crap starting with "Has he.. yada yada yada" .. Answer to all of those is Yes, every thing is better than PPP and getting better. Whether you like it or not, accept it or not, thats the fact.
P*MLN will win 2018, Pakistan will continue to get better and Losers like you will still be crying. Sorry kiddo fact!*
i asked you to stop posting in an insulting tone in another thread but you did not respond and today you are doing it again.
Look, your post above could be equally valid and even more forceful without all of these personal attacks that i highlighted above. No one is stopping you from expressing your viewpoint but we will not allow this tone. if you feel someone else is doing it against PMLN or you, then report it.
Proper action will now be taken.
Re: Modi in Congress
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There has been gradual but consistent change to the nations political system over the past 10 years or so. More power has been devolved to the provinces. NAB, a proactive supreme court, the rise of media… And there is a genuine change in the attitude of the parties as compared to the 90’s. More cooperation, less of the bickering and back biting. The Army’s attitude has changed, perhaps matured a bit. The system seems to be evolving. So the political system is not stagnant, its flowing and changing.
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In the last election, the PPP was trounced and sent packing. And it was thrown out by way of elections. If corruption is endemic and nothing will ever change, then how could the PPP, which was once the most popular party in the country be reduced to be nothing more then a regional party?
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How can anyone make such broad assumptions about Pakistani democracy when the system has never even had a chance to work? It worked the last time as the PPP were thrown out, because Democracy was allowed to function. But most previous govts were thrown out by coups. How can you expect the political system to evolve past the corruption, and the nepotism when the system and the relevant institutions were never allowed to functions!??! Do you know why the Army is so efficient as an institution? Its because the Army hasnt been interfered with. The Army is an independant body which has evovled over the last 60 years to become the institution it is today. Not the case with political parties.
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India is hardly an example here. Nepotism has defined the politics of the country for most of its existance. Nehru, his daughter, the Rajiv her son, then Sonya… I mean come on! According to Quora page, 2/3 of the Lok Sabha have relatives who were politicians.
https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-famous-examples-of-nepotism-in-India
“Three years ago, author Patrick French, in a study of the Indian Parliament, unearthed some troubling data. He found that 100 per cent of MPs in the curent lower house of Parliament under the age of 30 are from families with a political background, a fact that would be astounding anywhere else in the world.
Read more: Nepotism: the way they do politics in India
Follow us: @smh on Twitter](http://ec.tynt.com/b/rw?id=aBfWCmwwCr37XTadbiUzgI&u=smh) | sydneymorningherald on Facebook”
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You shouldnt compare Paksitans democracy to the monarchy of Saudia, Qatar, Kuwait, or UAE. You may not like the system here, but its still a democracy and on some level, the rulers are still answerable to the people. This is why NS and Imran Khan do things to appeal to the masses, becuse they want votes. The Saudi state is one of the cruelest and backwards on the planet… The behead people like dogs in public, then hang their bodies as a warning. Pakistan isnt even remotely like them thank god.
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PMLN has strengthened the institutions simply by virtue of the fact that they have almost gotten through their tenure and Democracy has continued uninterrupted for a second round. If the political parties are allowed to mature, if the system is allowed to function, that by itself will eventually lead to progress. Pakistan’s problems as I see them, emanate not from poor governance, but from repeated interruptions in the system. Poor governance is a consequence of a system thats not allowed to mature.
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Finally ZeA can attributed to any party you like. But I dont think the the Army deserves much credit either. The Army was instrumental in creating much of the mess the country is in. And the fact is, they waited for years before starting a real operation while half the country burned and countless lives were lost. It seems they have always dragged their feet in fighting the extremists for whatever reason. Its only after the snakes have bitten the army on the foot that the react.
Re: Modi in Congress
lol… 
Re: Modi in Congress
Economic factors have improved significantly in India. Everything else is relatively better. Social issues stil plague the country. Yesterday I read about the racism faced by African students in India. One was beaten to death recently. Also the blatant discrimination against castes and religious groups. Its apparently perfectly fine to advertise a rental and mention that you wont accept Muslims. Granted however, that such discrimination might be ignored, is not encouraged by the Indian govt as Anti-Ahmadi prejudice is espoused by Paks govt. Environmental? What part of India's environment are we talking about? There as polluted if not more.
Minorities in Pakistan have it far worse than those in India.
As for the Environment India has improved in the sense it has acknowledged that reform is needed to some laws in this regards and a committee back in 2014 if Im not mistaken was setup to ensure a more robust system was in place. Cleaning up the Ganges, planting an extra 10 billion trees, fining companies who dump waste into water works etc.
In Pakistan I have never heard of any politician even talk about the environment nevermind form policies or procedures.
Re: Modi in Congress
On the other hand, lighting up the border - that must consume a lot of electricity. Since India get a significant portion from coal, that must release a lot of GHGs.
Re: Modi in Congress
I was hoping to get hard facts that strengthened the systems by introducing laws and implementations of such in your post with examples!
I guess there’s no point discussing based on just our opinions- let’s move to hard facts vs. Opinions.
Time has already told the story - ask anyone who is at the receiving (not beneficiary) end of this corrupt system : and ask if their standard of living was better in 2008 vs 2016.
Simply put; our population growth rate and # in tax net (formalized economy) has inverse relationship since last two years!
Withholding tax in an economy which has black economy sitting at 3-4 times bigger than formalized economy will make it even worse- and that too when financial credibility of rulers is at its lowest ebb; I can guarantee the ratio mix of Direct vs Indirect Tax will further widen the gap between rich and poor (as it already has in last few years) and this band-aid solution (to show absolute tax collection as increasing) to borrow more money from IMF is ticking time bomb- if Greece’s economy can go down the drain with way less issues than Pakistan - then who are we kidding?
Revenue base is squeezing and required outlay is expanding and then we claim systems are getting better- what happened to demand pull inflation ?
It is a claptrap and all Pakistan needs is an honest and clean leadership without baggage of corruption of Sharifs and Dars - we can have separate thread around the reasons and rationales why current system and modus ope***** conducted by ruling elite will not bring in the benefits of glorified western democracy model in Pakistan.
Democracy is not just General Elections exercise; it requires devolution of power to masses; it requires accountability, it requires stability and security.
There are hundreds of reasons why Pakistan will always remain a flashpoint due to its strategic and geo political situation in the region.
Apologies to Jolie for derailing the thread repeatedly - so let’s list down achievements of 65 Foreign trips of Nawaz Sharif and last 20 foreign trips of Modi to see how both are faring on Foreign Policy’s front?
Re: Modi in Congress
Minorities in Pakistan have it far worse than those in India.
As for the Environment India has improved in the sense it has acknowledged that reform is needed to some laws in this regards and a committee back in 2014 if Im not mistaken was setup to ensure a more robust system was in place. Cleaning up the Ganges, planting an extra 10 billion trees, fining companies who dump waste into water works etc.
In Pakistan I have never heard of any politician even talk about the environment nevermind form policies or procedures.
I agree minorities have it worse in Pakistan.
Acknowledging environmental issues is one thing, doing something about it is another.
KPK govt is currently implimenting their tree plantation drive. Tree plantation is also occurring in Punjab, or they are in the planning phase.
One of perceived benefits of these mass transit projects is the hope that people will opt to not drive, thus reducing car emissions. I have also heard they are trying to introduce electric rickshaws in parts of the country...
So yeah, they are talking about the environment. Also the many wind and solar energy projects coming up have as part of their inherent appeal the fact that the are clean and beneficial to the environment.
Re: Modi in Congress
I was hoping to get hard facts that strengthened the systems by introducing laws and implementations of such in your post with examples!
I guess there's no point discussing based on just our opinions- let's move to hard facts vs. Opinions.
Time has already told the story - ask anyone who is at the receiving (not beneficiary) end of this corrupt system : and ask if their standard of living was better in 2008 vs 2016.
Simply put; our population growth rate and # in tax net (formalized economy) has inverse relationship since last two years!
Withholding tax in an economy which has black economy sitting at 3-4 times bigger than formalized economy will make it even worse- and that too when financial credibility of rulers is at its lowest ebb; I can guarantee the ratio mix of Direct vs Indirect Tax will further widen the gap between rich and poor (as it already has in last few years) and this band-aid solution (to show absolute tax collection as increasing) to borrow more money from IMF is ticking time bomb- if Greece's economy can go down the drain with way less issues than Pakistan - then who are we kidding?
Revenue base is squeezing and required outlay is expanding and then we claim systems are getting better- what happened to demand pull inflation ?
It is a claptrap and all Pakistan needs is an honest and clean leadership without baggage of corruption of Sharifs and Dars - we can have separate thread around the reasons and rationales why current system and modus ope***** conducted by ruling elite will not bring in the benefits of glorified western democracy model in Pakistan.
Democracy is not just General Elections exercise; it requires devolution of power to masses; it requires accountability, it requires stability and security.
There are hundreds of reasons why Pakistan will always remain a flashpoint due to its strategic and geo political situation in the region.
Apologies to Jolie for derailing the thread repeatedly - so let's list down achievements of 65 Foreign trips of Nawaz Sharif and last 20 foreign trips of Modi to see how both are faring on Foreign Policy's front?
Hard data I don't have time to delve into. I'm not an economist.
Basic point is this... Corruption I'm sure is their. Nepotism is their. But these are a product of a democratic system that has to evolve and mature. What Pakistan needs is stability. Let the govt function, if they fail, then they will be thrown out. Interrupting the democratic system is only going to compound the problems.
Re: Modi in Congress
Hard data I don't have time to delve into. I'm not an economist. Basic point is this... Corruption I'm sure is their. Nepotism is their. But these are a product of a democratic system that has to evolve and mature. What Pakistan needs is stability. Let the govt function, if they fail, then they will be thrown out. Interrupting the democratic system is only going to compound the problems.
Kenya & Tanzania comparison is what needs to be seen how and why rotten systems (Kenya) vs. improvements (albeit gradual) to fundamentals & foundations (Tanzania) yield different results. It's a classic case; where more or less at the same time "Democracy" started but the end results are vastly different because one had tweaked democracy to fulfill self interests while other had meaningful fundamental change.
My point is simple; no foundation of democracy; be it system overall or democratization as a whole in real sense has been started/initiated and will NEVER be initiated as this current status quo with the name of democracy served the beneficiaries of this system.
Let's say 99.99% of the times human nature is such that it will want to be above the system hence current rulers who are already morally and financially compromised will not and cannot rise above to bring themselves under the system where they will become accountable.
Anyway, on deviated topic from the original post of this thread- this is my last post in this thread.
Can we please enlist achievements of Nawaz Sharif's 65 foreign trips causing tax payers costing almost 1billion rupees (Rs.826million).
Following achievements come to mind; someone else can add to the list please;
Improved Relations (economic perspective) improved with;
- Bangladesh
- Afghanistan
- India
- Iran
- USA
Direct Foreign Investment improved in core services sectors;
- Japan
- USA
- Muslim Ummah including UAE, Saudia
We are not talking about bailout packages where band aid is applied and yours and my kids will pay for debt servicing.
Re: Modi in Congress
Well how have democracies ever formed at all then? Anywhere!
Isn’t it always the case that there are those who have a vested interest in an unjust system and and are direct beneficiaries of a status quo? In Europe, America and anywhere else where democracy has been successful, you had an elite group laying the groundwork for democracy. Pakistan’s situation isn’t an anomalous one, its no different from all other places. Are Pakistan so called “elite” that different from their counterparts in other places? Are they that much more evil and self absorbed?
Kenya from what I understand is a rather dynamic economy…
Re: Modi in Congress
Have a look at outcomes.
- US support for inclusion of India in NSG: Nothing new, US already supports.
- Mr. Modi received standing ovation.
- US senate failed to recognize India as a "global defence and strategic partner".