Not sure to put this here or in Religion. I’ll let the mods decide.
All my life I was told that I wasn’t allowed to go for a walk in town or sit somewhere because of males (and of course 'what will people say if they see you there?). I asked why can’t the males stay at home for a few days so the females can go places? The first time I had to wear a duputta, I asked why not the males, why don’t they cover? My Mum became angry. She said school was teaching me these things, we were in the Netherlands you see and many Pakistanis here were as strict in those days. School wasn’t teaching me these things however, school didn’t even know that much about islam and school just mostly bullied me for wearing salwar kameez. These were my own feelings, seeing how my brothers and cousins were allowed to do everything and I was restrictred in every posssible way. I was always told that my questions en views were wrong.
Many years later after I began reading more about Islam myself, I learnt my questions weren’t bad or even unislamic. In fact, islam allows you to question. While drinking morning tea, I came upon this Dawn article about the modesty of men. The behaviour described of males in this article, is unfortunately the behaviour of many in my family and amongst many fellow pakistanis here. Do you see the same in your own area?
In many homes, modesty and respect towards women would be taught to boys, but girls are restricted at every stage. Girls are trained to ?save? themselves from the predatory eyes of men, yet boys are not taught to be less predatory, although they do become self-appointed ?moral police?. Stories of sexual harassment even in holy places are plenty and these acts are committed by men who would otherwise seek pure, veiled and well-hidden women as their wives. Books written to train people for Haj ask women to stay away from places reserved for men, but no men are required to keep a distance. Despite the lack of space for women, men are found to be ensconced in Masjid-i-Nabavi; women are scuttled away even from the Ka?aba and told to remain within the small enclosures reserved for them in Makkah.
(. . .)
The Quran gives instructions to men first to be modest: ?Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty: that will make for greater purity for them: And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do? (24:30). A complete code of interactions with women and prevention of sexual harassment is encapsulated within this verse. Not to stare at women, regardless of what they are wearing or how attractive they are; guarding their private parts so that there is no question of sexual assaults; attempting to achieve more taqwa, fearing their own desires and God. It is only later that God gives a similar injunction to women.
I keep seeing this meme among desi families where they tell their daughters to cover up or something whenever male relatives come over and it’s like…if you suspect a male is a creep why would you let him inside the house? But anyways, it really is no coincidence that “male modesty” is never enforced.
[quote=““third string””]
lol @ “male modesty” is never enforced. If you’re not a man then you can’t say that, male modesty is ALWAYS enforced by Muslims especially desi ones.
[/quote]
Ah yes, Pakistan is definitely a place where male modesty is enforced efficiently. Especially when women in Pakistan are essentially coerced into covering up when they go outside as their “deterrent” against street harassment.
Third string, most muslim males both here and in Pakistan (from what I saw in Kashmir, Islamabad en Rawalpindi mostly amongst my family members and family friends) aren’t modest, but do tell the females to be modest.
Thank you for sharing, LP. So your family members really practice in what they believe instead of randomly picking a few rules here and there.
I wonder if we are going to see a bigger change in this in society. Now with internet, with more information being available for everybody, perhaps attitudes in general will change for the better.
On behalf of Paki men, sincere apologies. This is a byproduct of us following saudi version of mullah islam. Great wonders it has done for the saudi nation, as you can tell from the progress they have made.
Agree with original poster completely. This nonsense of keeping females in the house has to be stopped. We need women to be educated, confident and working outside of the house side by side with men. For this nonsense to be happening in Paki households in west is even more shameful. It should be up to the woman to select the covering she feels is adequate.
Having seen the dimwit namoonay men coming from homeland we need more Pakistani women in the work force pronto.
I have suffered as well from the actions of such bad men toward women in my family for a long time. Such immodest men exist everywhere and in all social classes. We often think that it would always be someone from low income/education background but nopes !
Just a couple of weekends ago, I was at this restaurant with friends and family. The guys sitting a few tables away kept staring at women in our group. We complained to the staff and upon which they started to curse at us and wanted to pick a fight. We were few and they were many so we threatened to call the police and all. It ruined the weekend and to be honest scared all of us. Some of us had to drive home alone so checked in on each other that everyone got home safely.
Islam emphasizes modesty for both genders in their physical appearance, in their gaze, in their speech/language, in the consumption of food, in their purchases/living, in their interactions with members of the same and opposite gender. Whether or not someone chooses to implement modesty in their lives is another matter. Failure to do so cannot and should not be blamed on Islam. If you believe in something than do your best to practice it and don’t worry so much about what others are or aren’t doing because on the Day of Judgment you are only accountable for yourself and your own backyard, not anyone else’s. Yes, parents are more strict with their daughters, however there is an overall slackening of modesty in society that can be seen in both genders. It seems that those who observe modesty in all areas of life are in the minority these days.
The media in all its forms (movies, music, etc etc) glorifies immodesty and not just in dressing and gaze. Just look at language, for example. You are considered more “cool” and worthy of being emulated if your speech is liberally peppered with profanity, not so much if it’s articulate. It’s not just the eyes that take in filth. It’s the ears. The tongue. The pious people of the days of yore would be fearful of even being in the presence of someone who uttered a foul word because they believed that just the mere hearing of it will corrupt them internally. And it does corrupt. But the corruption is subtle and it doesn’t happen immediately. It takes place gradually and leads to a hardening of the heart and a feeling of overall apathy/indifference. You have folks who point their finger at the those who pray and say, “Look at that namazi who commits such and such a sin regularly.” In the times that we live in where the media constantly bombards and glorifies immodesty, it’s gonna take a lot more than namaz and to keep oneself on track.
Modesty is not only confined to the eyes or the gaze. When one faculty (sight) engages in immodesty…then it spreads to the other faculties/organs. So, if your gaze is immodest…then the thoughts in your mind will be immodest…and thoughts often are expressed in speech so your speech becomes immodest…and if you act on these thoughts/words…then your limbs (arms and legs) lead you to immodesty. What started with the eyes did not end with the eyes. It encompassed the mind, the heart, the ears, the tongue, the limbs. It spreads. And this applies to all of us; to both genders. It’s something that requires constant work and self-reminders, and self-checking, and a conscious effort.
[quote=““redvelvet””]
Islam emphasizes modesty for both genders in their physical appearance, in their gaze, in their speech/language, in the consumption of food, in their purchases/living, in their interactions with members of the same and opposite gender. Whether or not someone chooses to implement modesty in their lives is another matter. Failure to do so cannot and should not be blamed on Islam. If you believe in something than do your best to practice it and don’t worry so much about what others are or aren’t doing because on the Day of Judgment you are only accountable for yourself and your own backyard, not anyone else’s. Yes, parents are more strict with their daughters, however there is an overall slackening of modesty in society that can be seen in both genders. It seems that those who observe modesty in all areas of life are in the minority these days.
The media in all its forms (movies, music, etc etc) glorifies immodesty and not just in dressing and gaze. Just look at language, for example. You are considered more “cool” and worthy of being emulated if your speech is liberally peppered with profanity, not so much if it’s articulate. It’s not just the eyes that take in filth. It’s the ears. The tongue. The pious people of the days of yore would be fearful of even being in the presence of someone who uttered a foul word because they believed that just the mere hearing of it will corrupt them internally. And it does corrupt. But the corruption is subtle and it doesn’t happen immediately. It takes place gradually and leads to a hardening of the heart and a feeling of overall apathy/indifference. You have folks who point their finger at the those who pray and say, “Look at that namazi who commits such and such a sin regularly.” In the times that we live in where the media constantly bombards and glorifies immodesty, it’s gonna take a lot more than namaz and to keep oneself on track.
The video that I have included above is not for Bob. He has a diseased heart and to anyone with an iota of sense, it should be very apparent that he is trying his level best to lead astray. He has to remind us constantly that he is such a wonderful husband. But if he holds us Muslims in contempt and is constantly attacking/mocking our religion, then what can be said of how he perceives his own spouse who is also a Muslim? Those who have to remind us of their greatness in every sphere of life are usually compensating for a deficiency.The video rather is for anyone who is interested in the questions that he has posed.
RV, I have to be honest, it does irritate me when you (and others) refer to Nouman Ali Khan, Omar Suleiman etc. They are not Islamic Scholars in any shape or form and should not be discussing Fiqh in this way. They may be good motivational speakers and do good social work in their communities but should not be given relevance otherwise.
p.s. Please don’t bother writing an essay in reply, I’m not interested into getting into a debate.
