Moderation

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: Moderation


NBN, I am not a sectarian... I am MUSLIM

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cricketplaya please be clear about this too... moderation and modernism are not the same thing.

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Vedic Intellect...

I dont blame the West for having an issue with Muslims i would be more stringent if i was in their position...so yeh i dont moan about Muslim treatment in the West cos i dont believe any society is tolerant of values contradictory to their own...

As for going to the Muslim world...they are even more intolerant of Islam...Arabs and Pakistan leadership clamp down on Muslims all the time...Arab jails are full of tortured and abused Islamists...The only place for a Muslim is the caliphate itself...theres no such thingas the Muslim world...just Kufr countries with Muslims in them...

Hypnotix2000...
Acceptance of the sayings of the Prophet isnt generally a debated thing...the convo between us is going to get a little bit difficult cos now we are arguing from two different viewpoints...

For instance you bring up modesty ill bring up jilbab...you'll discount hadeeth and ill bring up hadeeth...makes it kind of difficult to go anywhere...

If there is no compulsion, then there is no compulsion... public or private. If it does not violate family values and does not cause disruption in administrative/governing affairs, then IMO the Quran does not prohibit it....

How do you define that?...Islam legislates that everyone regardless of creed must abide by Islamic law in the public sphere but no restrictions are held on you in the provate sphere where you can do as you please....sounds pretty reasonable...each society sets its benchmarks for what is acceptable...Islam also sets it and encourages Islamic culture in all aspects of public life...just like any soicety we want people to integrate and adopt the values of the state and not be separatist...we dont believe in multiculturalism in public life...

Modesty... not "cover"

Well we're gonna disagree on this...I understand it from the Quran to be a jilbab obviously you define iit differently...

No matter, they still called themselves "muslims" while they violated Islamic laws.

Thats a really weak point on your half...the whole point is you used the Taliban as an example and they misapplied Islam...whether they called themsleves Muslim or not is irrelevant...Afghanistan was as Islamic as Brtiain in that is is a kufr system...if it had the odd law inspired by Islam then that is irrelevant...

If Quran says lashes, then so it be... noone can change that to stoning (a Jewish custom) and this IS TRANSGRESSION!! Many sunnis and shias will disagree here but fellas, fear God before negating the Quran, if you are indeed muslim!

Cant comment cos im not sure...

Hadith and Sunnah is contained within the Quran. Anything outside of the Quran is NOT acceptable IMO!

Something we disagree on and its quite a big disagreement...if you dont mind me asking how do you know how to pray if you dont acknowledge hadeeth?...

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Perhaps from your view point yes it is not debated... and yes this is quite a debate.


Perhaps this makes me more hardlined lol


The very concept of imposition repels a person. It is human nature... There is no cosmeticity in Islam. God's system IS nature... how else an-Najm-u wa as-Shajara-u yasjudaan?


Any system that goes against the Word of God is non-Islamic, but it is another thing to label anything non-Islamic as Kufr. God does not give us that right.


This is a favourite sectarian question... I've answered it in the past (on this forum).

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Nice post. So are you hinting that any Islamic principle that does not hinder this personal freedom of others defines A characteristic of a moderate muslim.

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Why are we still approaching "Islam" as a title? Islam cannot be moderate or unmoderate ... it either IS or IS NOT ... just like a pregnancy. Islam is not inherited like a surname. It has to be established in the heart and mind, and in society.

The day we realize this is the day we will have achieved a major milestone, for the West will be completely baffled that we are no longer ascribed to the labels they have chosen.

~~MASOOM BADMASSHH~~
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Moderation in Islam: To me, moderate Muslims are Muslims that follow Islam according to what Prophet (SAW) has taught Islam and according to the way what Allah wanted Muslim to follow Islam.

There are people on either side of moderate Muslims.

One completely ignored all teachings and principle of Islam and even though they call themselves Muslims, they follow nothing.

Whereas there is another group that have made Islam a cult and follow Islam like cult, as kuffar follow kufur. These people don’t follow Islam what Allah sent and what Prophet (SAW) taught, they follow Islam ignorantly and interpreted things wrongly to suits their ignorance. But whatever they follow, be that Islam or not Islam, they call it Islam and follow it with pretext that they are following Islam. They are extremists but in reality, extremely misguided.

Example: Eating and weight: A 5 ft 9 inches tall medium built man eats moderately. His weight is around 11.5 stone. That is moderate.

On his one side, an another man, 5 ft 9 inches tall medium built, eats too little and thus has weight 5 stone, still believes that he is fat (actually he has bulimia). This man is sickly thin and intellectually dumb.

On his another side, a third man, 5 ft 9 inches tall medium built, eats too much and thus has weight 35 stones, still believes that he is thin (actually he is mentally sick and obese). This man is sickly fat and intellectually dumb.

Same is true about Islam and Muslims.

if you could attack a forum
if you could attack a forum
if you could attack a forum
if you could attack a forum
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Exactly, so what we define as "Islam" is not what it is... It should not even be capitalized!!

What is islam according to the Quran? It is "submission in peace, to God"...

So let's do a small experiment:
I follow moderate Islam == I follow moderate "submission in peace, to God"

How do you moderately submit? What the heck is moderate submission? You either submit or you don't! :) See the dilemma??

So unless we start to recognize that islam is not a title but an attribute of submission, we will not begin to solving this issue.

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Actually, there is no such thing as moderately submitting to Allah. It is wholly submitting to Allah. Moderate Muslims submit to Allah wholly.

Extremist so-called Misguided Muslims do not submit to Allah, they submit to their own ego and their own interpretation of Islam.

Just like a Kafir would kill anyone for his religion, these extremist would also do the same. Kafirs do that, because for Kafir, all are not creation of one God or that all are not doing their test that Allah has given them, but for Kafir: The most important thing is MY, MY, MY religion, MY, MY, MY belief, MY, MY, MY understanding of life .. . All that a Kafir believe is ME and MY, nothing else, though all their shaitanic deed is done in the name of religion. For a kafir, all are misguided but ONLY they are certain that they are on the right path and are there to kill and plunder others.

These misguided extremist so-called Muslims are following Islam same was as kafir follows their religion. No difference and their end after death would be no different either. They do not worship Allah (ST), who is Rahman and Raheem, Khaliq and Forgiver. These extremist so-called Muslims worship a deity that they believe God and call that God Allah. Only difference is that, they named their deity ‘Allah’ not ‘Apollo’ or ‘Zeus’ or ‘Hanuman’ … that’s all.

These extremists believe that their God (whoever they worship) depends on them and use them to spread his name and to kill and plunder human race in his name.

These people can do suicide in the name of Islam. They can kill innocent human, without even thinking that all humans are creation of Allah, in the name of Islam. They can blow up all they do not agree in the name of Islam. If they can, they would impose their misguided beliefs in the name of Islam. They can break laws in the name of Islam. Well, all sins they would do, but they would do in the name of Islam, resulting in making Islam debased and religion of terrorists.

In reality, these people do not worship Allah, these people worship Shaitan. Knowingly or unknowingly, they do all for Shaitan but take the name of Allah, to malign the name of Allah amongst his creation and malign the name of Islam and Prophet (SAW).

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Well then I have news for you... islam means submission in peace (quite literally) ...


Dear brother, extremism is non-Islamic to begin with, so how can you call it islam?? Do you get my point?

God tells you not to transgress or fall short... falling short or transgressing in daily life matters (something human) is one thing, but you cannot transgress or fall short in submission. Your submission keeps you in check so that you constantly improve you daily conduct and life. That is how you establish balance (aqeem ul Wazn).

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[quote]
Well then I have news for you... islam means submission in peace (quite literally) ...
[/quote]
You have translated it correctly and there is no doubt about that. Unfortunately, these so called Muslims who are extremists, they do not even know the meaning of peace. That is why I call them so-called Muslim and I hope you understand what so-called mean :)

[quote]
Dear brother, extremism is non-Islamic to begin with, so how can you call it islam?? Do you get my point?
[/quote]
I wrote ‘they are following their interpretation of Islam’. Thus, it is not me saying that they follow Islam. I wrote that they are following a religion of Shaitan, but have given the name of that religion ‘Islam’, hence for the sake of Shaitan (knowingly or unknowingly), they are maligning the name of Allah, Prophet (SAW) and Islam.

[quote]
God tells you not to transgress or fall short... falling short or transgressing in daily life matters (something human) is one thing, but you cannot transgress or fall short in submission. Your submission keeps you in check so that you constantly improve you daily conduct and life. That is how you establish balance (aqeem ul Wazn).
[/quote]
True, Allah tells Muslims not to transgress, no doubt, but Shaitan wants people to transgress. These so-called Muslims transgress in horrendous way, and use the name of Islam, justifying their transgression using their interpretation. That is what the God they believe (i.e Shaitan), that tells them, that to transgress and fill the world with fitna.

Where ever you will find these fitna maker so-called Muslims in action, you will notice that peace from those areas disappears and fitna with complete rule of Shaitan starts. Life of ordinary people gets affected and their (terrorists) fear rules everywhere in the area. Cloud of darkness takes over the area and innocent people start feeling unease and unsafe.

[Pura mahool aam logo kay liya ghutta ghutta sa hou jata hay, saway un kay jo khud is Shatianic power kay hissa hotay hain]

You can easily see that once that happens, Shaitanic power takes over the area. Peoples of the area find only two choice, either submit, not to Allah, but to these representative of Shaitan, or die resisting the Shaitanic power. Obviously it is not Islam that brings peace and security to all, but it is rule of Shaitan at its worst.

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then they are just muslims. you don't have to put ' moderate ' with it.

then they are just kafirs. you don't have to put ' muslims ' there.

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[QUOTE]

Actually, there is no such thing as moderately submitting to Allah. It is wholly submitting to Allah. Moderate Muslims submit to Allah wholly.

Extremist so-called Misguided Muslims do not submit to Allah, they submit to their own ego and their own interpretation of Islam.

Just like a Kafir would kill anyone for his religion, these extremist would also do the same. Kafirs do that, because for Kafir, all are not creation of one God or that all are not doing their test that Allah has given them, but for Kafir: The most important thing is MY, MY, MY religion, MY, MY, MY belief, MY, MY, MY understanding of life .. . All that a Kafir believe is ME and MY, nothing else, though all their shaitanic deed is done in the name of religion. For a kafir, all are misguided but ONLY they are certain that they are on the right path and are there to kill and plunder others.

These misguided extremist so-called Muslims are following Islam same was as kafir follows their religion. No difference and their end after death would be no different either. They do not worship Allah (ST), who is Rahman and Raheem, Khaliq and Forgiver. These extremist so-called Muslims worship a deity that they believe God and call that God Allah. Only difference is that, they named their deity ‘Allah’ not ‘Apollo’ or ‘Zeus’ or ‘Hanuman’ … that’s all.

These extremists believe that their God (whoever they worship) depends on them and use them to spread his name and to kill and plunder human race in his name.

These people can do suicide in the name of Islam. They can kill innocent human, without even thinking that all humans are creation of Allah, in the name of Islam. They can blow up all they do not agree in the name of Islam. If they can, they would impose their misguided beliefs in the name of Islam. They can break laws in the name of Islam. Well, all sins they would do, but they would do in the name of Islam, resulting in making Islam debased and religion of terrorists.

In reality, these people do not worship Allah, these people worship Shaitan. Knowingly or unknowingly, they do all for Shaitan but take the name of Allah, to malign the name of Allah amongst his creation and malign the name of Islam and Prophet (SAW).

[/QUOTE]

I really liked your post. I think that while Muslims know that there is a difference between being "Muslim" or "not Muslim" (as Hareem pointed out, you don't have to even put the word "so-called Muslim" in there because they're not Muslim at all) your post really illustrates it very well to someone looking in from the outside at the "moderate muslim debate." I think that more non-muslims (westerners, etc.) should read something like this if they want to understand how "extremists" are different from their true muslim "counterparts" (because many people don't realize that extremists really aren't muslims- which is exactly what the extresmists are trying to accomplish).

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Hypnotix2000...
We're discussing from different perspectives so we cant really go any further with this...what you see as going against God i dont...

USResident...
In Islam there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim is there...its a Western construct...

Sa1eem...
How have you differentiated between Islam and extremism?...

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I've got some very interesting meanings of moderation, moderate and extremist.

Moderation > the action of lessening in severity or intensity; *
*Reduction
Decrease
Step-down
Modification
Abstraction

Moderate > Centrist
Middle of the roader
Tone down
Modify
Change
Soften

Extremist > a person who holds extreme views
Ultra *
*Radical

Radical > Root
Base
Stem

I think in the light of these definations, an extremist is the one who wants to strictly follow islam or doesnt want to leave the bases and roots of Islam . What is wrong in it?

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Yes you are right, if we consider their understanding as our point of reference you end up discussing all this HoHo. If we talk with a muslim crowd as our point of reference there is no such discussion. It simply boils down to the degrees of piety attained by a muslim, if any measure of a muslim at all.

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Mara thanks:

Well, it seems that some still have doubts on why ‘Muslims should be called moderate’ and they also have doubt that ‘extremists are not Muslims but misguided, evil and ignorant’. Better we go to Quran as I believe Quran is undeniable and perfect ‘hujjat’ for a Muslim (only Kafir can deny that).

Actually Allah tells us (Muslims) to be moderate in Quran: Those who are not moderate are really not Muslims but according to Allah, are evil, arrogant and bray like Ass (it is not what I am saying, don’t blame me of being abusive, I just mentioned what is there in Quran). Here are ayahs from Quran. Read them Ayahs carefully, understand these ayahs, and think.

Surah Al-Maeda (5), ayah 66:

YUSUFALI: If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.
**
PICKTHAL:** If they had observed the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto them from their Lord, they would surely have been nourished from above them and from beneath their feet. Among them there are people who are moderate, but many of them are of evil conduct.
**
SHAKIR:** And if they had kept up the Taurat and the Injeel and that which was revealed to them from their Lord, they would certainly have eaten from above them and from beneath their feet there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course, and (as for) most of them, evil is that which they do.

Thus, from above (in hard red) it is obvious that right course (what Yusuf Ali translated) and moderate course (what Pickthal and Shakir translated) is same. For rest who are not on moderate course (following Islam), according to Quran as mentioned above (in hard black), they are following evil course and thus are evil (According to Quran).

[Note: anything Allah mentions in Quran about peoples of the book applies to people of Quran (Muslims) too. If Allah considers that people of the book who were on right path followed the moderate course and that other (that means, those who follow extremist course) are evil, same applies to Muslims too].

Again in surah Luqman (31), ayah 18-19 (here Allah has clearly defined the difference between being moderate and being ignorant and evil):

YUSUFALI (31:18): "And swell not thy cheek (for pride) at men, nor walk in insolence through the earth; for Allah loveth not any arrogant boaster.

YUSUFALI (31:19): "And be moderate in thy pace, and lower thy voice; for the harshest of sounds without doubt is the braying of the ass."

Though above ayah (31:18-19) is talking about being moderate in behaviours, ayah also shows that in front of Allah, those on right path and behaviour are people who are moderate. In ayah, Allah compared people who are moderate with those that are not moderate, in clear words. From ayahs, it is also obvious that Allah loves those that are moderate (and it is actually them whom Allah considers Muslims). As for rest, who are not moderate, Allah calls them ‘arrogant’ and people that bray like Ass (gadha).

Thus, according to Quran, in front of Allah a Muslim is Moderate (it is moderate whom Allah loves), and course of Islam is moderate course (Quran 5:66). Further, in front of Allah, those who are not moderate are evil, arrogant and bray like Ass (Quran 31:18-19).