Moderate Muslims?

Re: Moderate Muslims?

Mr.Hyperbole....if they dont believe in Allah and His Messenger(SAW) then they aren't even muslim............extremist and moderate to door ki baat hai...

Re: Moderate Muslims?

But in Quran it says that Allah can forgive anyone except the one who does shirk knowingly. And shirk is a crime against Allah.

and you are telling us the other way round.......thats very wise of you.

Re: Moderate Muslims?

Islam is the golden middle way but not extremism....

Re: Moderate Muslims?

.

Re: Moderate Muslims?

nor is the moderation.

Re: Moderate Muslims?

Peace Dushwari

I'm not entriely clear at what is being said by yourself here so I will again reiterate and clarify the differences between the meaning behind the term 'middle path' the general term 'moderate' and the acquired politicised meaning of term 'moderate'.

You say 'extremes are not moderate' let's test this statement ...

What does it mean to be extremely moderate then? If moderate means being inconsistently religious then extremely moderate could mean being very inconsistently religious, which actually means irreligious. If moderate means being good, then extremely moderate would mean being very good, which actually means that one gets closer to the 'middle path' than those who are merely good.

My problem with the media buzzword 'moderate' is that they have decided to take ownership of the meaning of the term. I'm not going to let that happen where Islam is concerned. I think this is where you see subjectivity in my version of the term. Okay so then let's look at other terms that describe Muslims within the Qur'an.

Mo'min, Mohsin and Muttaqi ... These would be Believer, Excellent and God-Conscious (Fearing).

Before I go into detail regarding these terms, I would like to say that the term 'moderation' does not necessarily draw a dichotomy against the term 'extreme'. To be extreme is to be very much of something. To be a 'moderate' according to the pro-secular political definition is to be a 'part-timer', but it is not to say that one cannot be an extreme 'part-timer'. It is quite possible to be a 'part-timer' at everything, that in itself is an extreme behaviour.

'Extreme' is really only a helping word that puts emphasis on the word that it precedes. Therefore, to be zealous is one thing, but to be extremely zealous is another. To be conservative is not an extreme unless it is everything that one is being conservative with, being liberal is not equivalent to being the opposite of 'extreme' because it is possible to be extremely liberal. However, where dichotomies do exist one can say opposite conditions of extremely liberal is extremely conservative behaviours.

To be moderate is to be neither extremely conservative nor extremely liberal, but it is possible to be extremely moderate, which is when a person never takes extremely conservative nor extremely liberal views. The political 'moderate' may take extreme views, whereas the Muslim should not.

As for the 'middle path' is it not a truism that a hypocrite is he who is lenient on himself and strict on others with regards to religious matters?

As for those who are fair by treating themselves the same as others well this is purely being fair ... Muslims should be fair.

Where however, do the following group of people go? Would you say that they are not following the 'middle path' when they are lenient on others and strict on themselves? For this characteristic is one of the moh'sin - where the person excels in good beyond mere requirement, but not to an excess which causes more damage than good. There is an optimum the one who tries to reach this optimal good is the one who is 'improving' ... and improvement is an ongoing process, one can always improve.

We are not judged on our achievements, we are judged on our efforts, if we are effortlessly 'moderate' compared with those who are 'striving' to be so much more 'moderate' who are the ones likely to fall into extremes and who are the ones likely to be 'consistent'?

Quite appropriately we are never to commit shrk, but by this 'never', is it not an 'extreme'? Or we must never force the deen onto people, by this 'never' is it not an 'extreme'? Are we to be politically moderate would it mean that we 'must pray five times a day' or 'must not pray five times a day'? If 'must pray' is extreme, then why is it that 'must not' is not?

I'll say this again:
Islam is the definition of being a moderate human being, the only thing we must be extreme with is our attempts to religious Muslims. (I say this with leniency on others and strictness on myself) And May Allah (SWT) help me in purifying my intentions. Ameen.

Re: Moderate Muslims?

obviously you don't understand what moderation means...

Re: Moderate Muslims?

True dat...another definition of moderate muslim is that which our beloved Veep Cheney and his neocon and christian zionist cohorts frequently refer to --when discussing methodoligies and strategies for spreading democracy, read hegemony in the Middle East -- i.e. eager to the be the enabler of imperialism...

Re: Moderate Muslims?

Then help me to understand the meaning of moderation.

Re: Moderate Muslims?

*i agree that Islam encourages moderation. *
*problem is that too much now at this point is taken out of context and all of us live in our little safety nets of a meshed outlook, about religion and the worldly life we live. *

thank for the wish and the prayer. **
*May Allah make us all able in recognizing Allah's creation and its meaning. *
**amen.

dushwari

Re: Moderate Muslims?

psyah, ^
please see the text in bold as reply to your reply.
best,
dushwari

Re: Moderate Muslims?

amen

Re: Moderate Muslims?

Hareem01, Das Reich and others:
I respect the right of having a choice, as Allahjee gave each and every person. Now, IF Allahjee gave us a sudden right, why should His own creation then limit others in exercising their right?

Who is better than who, eventually only Allahjee will decide on day of Judgement.

Its the same mentality that bothers me deeply......
1) In Afghanistan, Taliban enforces pardah of totally crazy form.

Its neither practical or even comforting to wear. Its a dress code
more strict than normal purdah of Chador or 2 piece burkha.

2) In Europe, some countries are objecting on hijabi women to wear hijab in parliment. They dont want such a person standing on their political Forum. This is really beyond limits!

Its simply the intolerance that gets me. Islam had a reputation of coping and accepting all its multi-facet beautiful people. Now its Muslims bomb blasting other Muslims in name of hadice or whatever crazy self justification.

A true muslim does not call other Muslims Munafiq.
They are the very same, who will label other sects as none muslim and kafir. Is such a person not ACTING as if she/he is God? c´mon......

I dont think, I wrote any to be al qaida or such... I did comment on sudden group's self reasoning of killing other Muslims. You answered a question, I never asked you, so you go in for defending him. Im asking someone else and you seem to reply in his place. If you know him then thats another story. Im more interested in knowing his point of view, what sort of justification made him call other munafiqs. Capische?

Re: Moderate Muslims?

^ we can call others munafiqs and they can call us the same ....but there is no justification for killing each other .....

secondly if a state is declared islamic then it is the duty of the ruler to enforce its law even if it means by force....just like a secular state enforces its laws ...nobody ever questions them why they force others to abide by it ...right? similarly if the state religion is islam those to say they are muslims HAVE to live by its rules....
problem is people think that religion is just a personal thing ...in islam it is not ...but it does not mean we try to enforce our laws in countries were muslims are minorities
islam's reputation for absorbing nonmuslim cultures developed in later generations ....take for example caliphates of Ali[as] and Umar[ra] ....the state religion was strictly enforced and nonmuslims kept in their place but treated with justice and according to their laws.
Later caliphs selected nonmuslims to important positions and adopted their habits leading to degeneration of the society

Re: Moderate Muslims?

Das Reich Quote:
and who will define this "darmiyana rawi" ?
does this not translate into " I will follow religion as long it does not force me to give up any worldly gain and suits my lifestyle, but if it does than I will disregard that rule and call it a extremist interpretation of islam" ...how convenient !!

Im truly sorry for you, IF you dont have common sense to interperate such a general expression of Islam.
IF you are in need of clerics to TELL you how to do this and that, thats your problem NOT mine.
IF you need an official school of thoughts to clear matters in specific actions how "dar miyana rawi" is practiced, its simply shows the "handicap" of your thinking process. You chose to LEAN on people putting a stamp on valid or haram way of living..... Its your choice, just as I exercise my choice.

IF our women can work with white men, with or without hijab for earning reasons...livelyhood, then surely meeting other muslim brethen within respect and cultivated manners can also be done.....
You write as if there aint co-education in Muslim countries or tradition of mixed gatherings in general.

Dont you KNOW the sayings:
Am Khuda, am Khoormah? One doesnt exclude the other....

Re: Moderate Muslims?

^ why did RasoolAllah his family and righteous companions spend their lives teaching people if Quran was self-explanatory ? it might be the "handicap" of my thinking but I will not consider my own defective intelligence as the arbitrator of the truth ....esp. when there are such excellent examples i can benefit from.
you seem to be obsessed with woman's clothing and taliban , and where did "white men " come into all this .....

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Re: Moderate Muslims?

LOL...good point! But that's obviously not extremism. Those are established traditions.

But to proclaim those are as obligatory as fasting, to the extent of beating people (hypothetically, I am not claiming anyone is doing that) would be an example of extremism. To spend the whole day praying, every day, is also extreme.

A good example of people going "too far" are those who will not even swallow their spit during Ramadan.

Another example I can think of relates to a Tablighi brother I once knew. He left his family for a month, without even warning them. In his zeal for learning and spreading religion, he neglected his family. His wife and four kids ran out of money (he was spending what little they had on his trip!), and so we had to help them out until he came back. He was profoundly shamed by it...and later told us he was so keen on his mission, and so absorbed that he honestly forgot all other obligations.

So to those of us who respect and honor faith, we can (in part) consider extremism to be the favoring of one religious duty/obligation at the expense of other religious/worldly duties. As for those who do not respect and honor our faith...to hell with them. And I don't mean that in the moderate sense.

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Re: Moderate Muslims?

Sister you have asked a question that needs lot of explanation: I wanted to avoid it but let me explain from what I understand:

Extremists confess that they are Muslims. A Muslim could not call anyone ‘non-Muslim’ who confesses to be Muslim and does not do ‘takfeer’, regardless of whatever they do. Calling someone Kafir or non-Muslim (same thing) means that after death one could not defend that in front of Allah, because beliefs is things of heart and no one can open heart of anyone to find out their beliefs.

Assumption is not hujjat for determining faith but only confession can determine faith. Actions of a person cannot be used to judge faith (except action of calling someone ‘Kafir’). Calling someone Kafir on assumption (not on confession) means that caller himself is Kafir and Allah would treat the caller kafir on judgment day, regardless of the belief of that person or that the assumption of that person was right or wrong. The reason being that caller by calling someone Kafir regardless of confession, declares that he is God from that action (actually that person took right of Allah of determining faith of someone using not confession but from what is there in heart).

Anyhow, here are some differences between moderate Muslim and extremists:** Moderate Muslims** believe on ‘Live and let live’ principle. He spends time to learn Islam and follow Islam the way he understands. Tell others who are willing to listen but never force beliefs on others. For him, even state has no right to interfere in personal life of anyone. For him, religion spreads because people accept that religion and adopt that religion as choice, with free will without use of any force. If Allah wanted religion to be enforced, Allah has enough power to enforce that on all, without human interference.

Moderate Muslim does not take religion personal, but consider a way of Allah for testing soul. He may not agree on the beliefs of others, but realizes that others have right to believe what they consider right, as they are also going through test as much as him. He knows that what he believes could be right or wrong, hence he keep learning and keep praying all the time to Allah for guidance.

Moderate Muslim would not fight or kill to spread his religion (belief) as religion can only spread by others accepting beliefs voluntarily (that is why it is called belief). Moderate Muslim would fight to keep conducive environment, where trouble makers are trying to enforce beliefs (whatever that belief is) and stop others freedom in accepting religion of choice. As long as someone is not interfering with others freedom in religion, they are fine. Those that interfere with freedom are trouble makers, and moderate Muslim does Jihad against them.

Extremist deny all that what moderate Muslims stands for. Extremist have a belief that he considers right and wants to enforce that belief on others. He could kill for his beliefs and do suicide for his beliefs. For extremists, there could be no two opinions no two beliefs, but one opinion one belief, the belief that he believes. He is certain that what he believes is as true as sky is blue. Extremists do not believe on Allah, Prophet (SAW), and Quran but believes that he believe on Allah, prophet (SAW) and Quran.

**
Quran and differences between moderate Muslim and extremists*: some example from: **Surah Al-Anaam: 6:104-108***
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<!--[endif]-->***YUSUFALI (6:104):* "Now have come to you, from your Lord, proofs (to open your eyes): if any will see, it will be for (the good of) his own soul; if any will be blind, it will be to his own (harm): I am not (here) to watch over your doings."
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<!--[endif]--> Moderate Muslim: tells others about Islam and do not bother who accept the truth or not. He believes that all who accepts the truth do that for their own good. He leaves others after passing the message as Allah has not made him to watch over the doings of others.
**
Extremists*: would not tell others about his beliefs, but try to force others and believe that it is his duty to watch over the doings of others.


**YUSUFALI (6:105):
* Thus do we explain the signs by various (symbols): that they may say, "Thou hast taught (us) diligently," and that We may make the matter clear to those who know.
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<!--[endif]-->Moderate Muslim: believes that his duty is to tell others diligently about Islam, no more. He would never become physical.

Extremist: believes that his duty is not to just tell diligently but force others to accept what he believes. He becomes physical. If it is up to him, extremist would kill.

**
YUSUFALI (6:106):** Follow what thou art taught by inspiration from thy Lord: there is no god but He: and turn aside from those who join gods with Allah.

Moderate Muslim: Follow Islam and turn aside from those that do not (leave them alone).

Extremist: Does not matter what he follows, he is more concerned to enforce his beliefs on others. He will never leave (turn aside) others that do not believe what he believes, he would fight and if he can, he will kill them.

**
YUSUFALI (6:107):** If it had been Allah's plan, they would not have taken false gods: but we made thee not one to watch over their doings, **nor art thou set over them to dispose of their affairs.

**Moderate Muslim:
believes that yes, it is plan of Allah that people have taken false gods. He recognizes that it is not his duty to watch over their doings, nor he is there to dispose the affairs of those taken false gods.

Extremist: believes that it is not plan of Allah that people have taken false gods. Thus it is his duty to watch over their doings, and to dispose the affairs of those taken false gods by force. He believes that those who have taken false gods do not have right to live, they should accept his beliefs, give jazyia, or die.


YUSUFALI (6:108): Revile not ye those whom they call upon besides Allah, lest they out of spite revile Allah in their ignorance. Thus have we made alluring to each people its own doings. In the end will they return to their Lord, and we shall then tell them the truth of all that they did.
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Moderate Muslim: Would never revile what others believe or their gods. He wont argue in ways that others would start reviling Islam and Allah. Moderate Muslim knows that it is Allah who created all and made them their religion alluring. If anyone does not listens his diligent preaching of Islam, he would leave them peacefully, and leave the matter to Allah, as he believes that in the end, all will go to Allah and it is Allah that would clear things.

Extremist: Would revile what others believe and their gods all the time. He would keep arguing, abusing, accusing, and attacking others and their beliefs. During arguments, others would start reviling Islam and Allah but extremist do not care, he is more interested in reviling and fighting for his beliefs. Extremists do not believe that Allah made alluring to all what they believe and false religion they have taken. Extremist is not bothered about diligent preaching, but he is more interested in arguing, abusing, accusing, fighting, killing, doing suicide bombing and dying for his beliefs. Extremist does not believe that all are created by Allah and that it is Allah that has this right to judge and tell all after death, what they believed was right or wrong, and clear things for all.

Re: Moderate Muslims?

Tell me one thing, was Quran & collections of hadice all written down during the life time of Rasoolallah? So how did Muslims then get by?
Dont turn it into as IF I dont read Quran or look up in Hadice etc for guidance...... But there are some pratice of life, we are taught at very young age and its set for good.
The thing about the right to chose to wear hijab and enforcing hijab/or lets say it as it is, extreme way of pardah the afghani type of burka....... Well neither parties are in their right mind, both are extremists.

There is a huge difference between Quran and a GENERAL expression of Islam, Das Reich. Dont try to be intellectually dishonest by such a comparision. I hate double standards of every sort. So when you mentioned to avoid mix gatherings etc.... I wanted to show you the other side of the picture, that some DONT MIND their women working with other white men BUT it hurts them, if other Muslim brethen even saw the faces of their wives.......
Or those, who forbid their wives daughters to attend gatherings/weddings of mix kind, but at same time it IS ok, to send them to public school/uni/college and to work..... where there are men, but perhaps white men/guys......
Its simply beyond any sound logic.

Re: Moderate Muslims?

agreed

wohi murghi ki aik taang.