The thing about the right to chose to wear hijab and enforcing hijab/or lets say it as it is, extreme way of pardah the afghani type of burka....... Well neither parties are in their right mind, both are extremists.
There is a huge difference between Quran and a GENERAL expression of Islam, Das Reich. Dont try to be intellectually dishonest by such a comparision. I hate double standards of every sort. So when you mentioned to avoid mix gatherings etc.... I wanted to show you the other side of the picture, that some DONT MIND their women working with other white men BUT it hurts them, if other Muslim brethen even saw the faces of their wives.......
Or those, who forbid their wives daughters to attend gatherings/weddings of mix kind, but at same time it IS ok, to send them to public school/uni/college and to work..... where there are men, but perhaps white men/guys......
Its simply beyond any sound logic.
Very good point Pathani..........thats true, I know quite a lot of people who do that. But I dont think its extreme,I think its just their ignorance or hypocrisy.
Being a good muslim is not a necessary condition for being a good human being though.
Peace expatobserver
Fraudz said and agreed that one can't be a good Muslim without being a good human being; but you raise an interesting point can a person be a good human being without being a good muslim?
Well if it is Islam that they profess to then the answer has to be ... no. Otherwise they would be average Muslims or 'moderate' Muslims which means some of their actions or conducts will be hypocritical to the Islamic belief system. Hypocritical behaviour is a sign of a 'bad human being' not a good one.
If however, they are not believers then they may be 'good' people to other humans and because and due to their lack of faith even if their intentions are to be 'good' their actions cannot carry the 'goodness' that guidance from God carries.
Which prompts me to lay claim to this furthermore that by being a good Muslim one becomes an excellent human being.
ummm, no they are not, your second, third hand, sensationalist information is inaccurate.
No its Not. You believe you have first hand information, you must be a member then. No cultist ever says he is part of a cult.
Cult
1.
a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2.
an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult. *
3.
the object of such devotion.
4.
a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5.
*Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6.
a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7.
the members of such a religion or sect.
8.
any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific
Fraudz said and agreed that one can't be a good Muslim without being a good human being; but you raise an interesting point can a person be a good human being without being a good muslim?
Well if it is Islam that they profess to then the answer has to be ... no. Otherwise they would be average Muslims or 'moderate' Muslims which means some of their actions or conducts will be hypocritical to the Islamic belief system. Hypocritical behaviour is a sign of a 'bad human being' not a good one.
If however, they are not believers then they may be 'good' people to other humans and because and due to their lack of faith even if their intentions are to be 'good' their actions cannot carry the 'goodness' that guidance from God carries.
Which prompts me to lay claim to this furthermore that by being a good Muslim one becomes an excellent human being.
Yours is a voice of inexperience. I know far too many good humans who do not believe in God and far too many terrible people who believe in God. Your statements ring hollow.
Yours is a voice of inexperience. I know far too many good humans who do not believe in God and far too many terrible people who believe in God. Your statements ring hollow.
Peace expatobserver
That's good isn't it. Can't deal with the issue and you begin to take it to personal levels. Okay so my voice is of inexperience ... but know this, that those who believe in God cannot be terrible because if they truly believed then they would perceive that God is watching them at all times. Those that do not believe in God have reasons other than pleasing God for doing their good deeds.
And if you feel my statements ring hollow ... please look at my posts on this forum and see for yourself if a believer in God is a 'bad' person. I try to be God-Fearing and this keeps me inshaAllah away from evil.
What is this mythic "human being" people keep talking about, as if there is such an identity as "human"?
So, good human = people who think like me.
Bad human=otherwise.
Peace picoico
The 'human being' is that person who makes the prophets of God a role model for ones own life. Consequently, those who justify their actions from the animal kingdom are equating themselves with those animals too. It is not too higher level of philosophy to realise that humans are different from animals. The good human would therefore be that who exercises his difference from the animal kingdom as much as possible - i.e. his/her humanity.
No its Not. You believe you have first hand information, you must be a member then. No cultist ever says he is part of a cult.
Cult
1.
a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2.
an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult. *
3.
the object of such devotion.
4.
a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5.
*Sociology. a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6.
a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7.
the members of such a religion or sect.
8.
any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific
I can see that, similarly tableeghi jamaat, and wahabis are a cult, right?
what are your views about collegiate fraternities, are they also cults?
by your definition, even every religion could be considered a cult.
The 'human being' is that person who makes the prophets of God a role model for ones own life. Consequently, those who justify their actions from the animal kingdom are equating themselves with those animals too. It is not too higher level of philosophy to realise that humans are different from animals. The good human would therefore be that who exercises his difference from the animal kingdom as much as possible - i.e. his/her humanity.
I would agree with that...but others may not. The point was, there is no single "human" identity akin to Muslim, Hindu, Christian, or even, American and Pakistani.
Others would say that supressing our base desires is in fact a bad thing...
I would agree with that...but others may not. The point was, there is no single "human" identity akin to Muslim, Hindu, Christian, or even, American and Pakistani.
Others would say that supressing our base desires is in fact a bad thing...
Peace picoico
That is true others would say those things ... and seeing that you agree then there is nothing more for me to add. There is just one thing and that is what others say or what we say has to be subjected to philosophical scrutiny. Those people who are best qualified to scrutinise should be the ones whose opinions should be accepted. This statement of mine can itself be rejected ... even basic elementary criteria can be rejected but it would be hard to justify that.
This can go into a deep philosophical discussion but I'm thinking this is not the place for it.
One example I would like to call up and that is about ultimate truth. We know that there is a stronger case for this than it's refutation. And here is why. When a person claims that there is no absolute truth and each and every person experiences their own truth. Then the statement itself is one which falls into the class of absolute truths. All one needs to do is ask 'are you sure?' and the claimant will see the case crumble before the eyes.
Such is the case with the argument raised above that you have agreed with, though there will be plenty of people to refute it, there will be few to adequately justify their refutation. I seek refuge in my Lord.
I can see that, similarly tableeghi jamaat, and wahabis are a cult, right?
what are your views about collegiate fraternities, are they also cults?
by your definition, even every religion could be considered a cult.
Peace Fraudz
I see that similarity too, but there are differences also. And the differences you have picked up on in your question.
In addition to the definition in dictionaries and many encyclopedias list that a 'cult' is some grouping activity that has two main elements:
1) To serve a myserious or secret mission
2) To worship a deity in a given manner or ritual
Some religions fall into the second criterion some 'fraternities' fall into the first. I would argue 'cults' fall into both. There is another layer of intricacy that I have not mentioned, which is that the leaders of the 'cult' usually have a different agenda to the adherents, but this not a hard and fast thing.
People have called Muslims cultists before, but I would agree with Hareem01 that masons seem to be 'cultists' because in the higher orders there is talk of worship a deity of a sort.