Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

[kchughtai]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

The reference quoted is Qadiani Madhhab - a biography of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad by Professor Ilyas Burni and Raees-e-Qadian - a biography of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad by Maulana Rafiq Dilawari. However as an ahmadi do you believe these letters to be true or can you present any contrary evidence to suggest otherwise?

First of all, ask the maulana or professor the source of these letters. where did they find them? in which book or publication so that we can know for sure as what is in those letters. They can say anything in their books as had been habit of opponents of ahmadiyya i.e., deception

[kchughtai]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

I will post my reply soon on the issue of Muhammadi begum and my sources will be published books of Mirza Sahib(as) that are accessible to all.

[arshad5]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

@kchughtai

First of all, ask the maulana or professor the source of these letters. where did they find them? in which book or publication so that we can know for sure as what is in those letters. They can say anything in their books as had been habit of opponents of ahmadiyya i.e., deception

The professor for one is widely acclaimed and is even respected by the Ahmadi community I am sure. Here is what wikipedia says about him: Instead of presenting facts you are indulging in hearsay.

Professor Muhammad Ilyas (Elias) Burney (1890–1959) MA LLB (Aligarh University) was the first head of Department of Economics at Osmania University, Hyderabad, India. Prof. Mohammad Elias Burney published about 40 books in Urdu, Persian, Arabic and English. He is also credit to have written the first books of Economics in Urdu by Dr. Sir Muhammad Iqbal. Iqbal complimented Burney on his book in a letter written to him on March 8, 1917 in these words: “Received Kitabul Maeeshat—your book is a great favour to Urdu language. I have no hesitation in saying that this is the first book on economics in Urdu language, and complete in all respects”. His other books in economics included Ilm ul Maaeshat (Knowledge of Economics), Muqaddima e Maashiyat (Treastise of Economics / Translation) and Indian Economics.
**
Prof. Mohammad Elias Burney is particularly known for his monumental work on the Ahmadiyya sect. His book in Urdu “Qadiani Muzhab”, (Ahmadiyya faith) is considered a comprehensive study on the subject.** It was also translated into Arabic as “Adiyanatul al Qadianiah” by Maulana Abdul Quddoos Nadvi. Among his other quoted books are Mishkat-us-Salawat which is a collection of poetry in praise of Islamic prophet Muhammad. He was also appointed by Muhammed Ali Jinnah to the Planning Committee of Pakistan. However after the partition of India he decided to remain in India.

[smooth_guy]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

Here is one of the reference regarding the prophecy of marrying Muhammadi Begum after she becomes widow. Which never happened and MGA said something about himself if it didn’t happen in his lifetime
Enjoy!

https://www.alislam.org/urdu/rkold/rk-11-33.pdf

Page 338

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[kchughtai]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

@arshad5

The professor for one is widely acclaimed and is even respected by the Ahmadi community I am sure. Here is what wikipedia says about him: Instead of presenting facts you are indulging in hearsay.

Professor Muhammad Ilyas (Elias) Burney (1890–1959) MA LLB (Aligarh University) was the first head of Department of Economics at Osmania University, Hyderabad, India. Prof. Mohammad Elias Burney published about 40 books in Urdu, Persian, Arabic and English. He is also credit to have written the first books of Economics in Urdu by Dr. Sir Muhammad Iqbal. Iqbal complimented Burney on his book in a letter written to him on March 8, 1917 in these words: “Received Kitabul Maeeshat—your book is a great favour to Urdu language. I have no hesitation in saying that this is the first book on economics in Urdu language, and complete in all respects”. His other books in economics included Ilm ul Maaeshat (Knowledge of Economics), Muqaddima e Maashiyat (Treastise of Economics / Translation) and Indian Economics.
**
Prof. Mohammad Elias Burney is particularly known for his monumental work on the Ahmadiyya sect. His book in Urdu “Qadiani Muzhab”, (Ahmadiyya faith) is considered a comprehensive study on the subject.** It was also translated into Arabic as “Adiyanatul al Qadianiah” by Maulana Abdul Quddoos Nadvi. Among his other quoted books are Mishkat-us-Salawat which is a collection of poetry in praise of Islamic prophet Muhammad. He was also appointed by Muhammed Ali Jinnah to the Planning Committee of Pakistan. However after the partition of India he decided to remain in India.

I didn’t ask for burney’s intro. I asked for the original reference of those letters.

[Scherbatsky]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

@smooth_guy

Here is one of the reference regarding the prophecy of marrying Muhammadi Begum after she becomes widow. Which never happened and MGA said something about himself if it didn’t happen in his lifetime
Enjoy!

https://www.alislam.org/urdu/rkold/rk-11-33.pdf

Page 338

So why was he so confident? This is a pretty bold statement of his not to mention highly embarrassing if it didn’t happen.

[smooth_guy]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

I didn't ask for burney's intro. I asked for the original reference of those letters.

In the meantime you can please read Rohani Khazain from the link I provided.
Consquently Hakeem Naseeruddin had to alter the original prophecy to (any Ahmedia male to marry any female from Ahmed Baig's family).
Later Ahmediya Jamat defended the prophecy as it was conditional (though there is no mention of conditions in MGA's writings) to her family coming back to Islam. Since, they did come back to Islam, his marriage to MB was not neccessary. But this doesn't sit well with MGA's own words in which he had to have three wives with certain names part of their names. You can check out in the link on that page.

[kchughtai]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

Background of this Issue

The background of this prophecy was that some of the relatives of the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, were atheists and mocked at Islam. God Almighty designed to show them a sign so that those who might take advantage of it may be saved and those who might reject it may be punished. Their condition is depicted by him as follows:

God Almighty found my cousins and other relatives a prey to irreligious thinking and given to misconduct. They were held in the grip of their passions, denied the existence of God and were disorderly. (Ayenah Kamalat Islam, p.566)

He states further:

It so happened that one evening a person came to me weeping and I became apprehensive and asked him whether he had received the news of the death of anyone. To this he replied in the negative and said that the matter was graver than that. He explained that he had been sitting with those people who have become apostates from the divine faith and one of them uttered vile abuse against the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, such as has not been heard even from the mouth of a disbeliever. He mentioned that these people dishonor the Holy Quran and utter things that one dare not repeat. They assert that there is no God and that the concept of God is an imposture. Having heard him I reminded him that I had already warned him against keeping company with such people. (Ayenah Kamalat Islam,p. 568)

The Promised Messiah, peace be on him, further states:

T*hese people wrote a letter to me in which they reviled the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, and denied the existence of God and demanded proofs of my truth and of the existence of God. They published this letter and supported the non-Muslims of India and exhibited extreme wickedness. (*Ayenah Kamalat Islam, p. 568)**

This letter was published in a Christian newspaper ‘Chashma-e-Noor’, Amritsar, August 13, 1885

On their demanding a sign, the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, turned to prayer and supplicated earnestly for a Divine sign to be exhibited in respect of them. God Almighty responded to him and he received the revelation:

I have observed their misconduct and wickedness and I shall soon destroy them under heaven through different types of calamities and you will soon see how I shall deal with them. I have power to do all that I will, I shall make their women widows and their children orphans and shall ruin their homes so that they might be punished for their misdeeds. I shall not destroy them at one stroke but gradually so that they might *turn *back and repent. My curse will descend upon the walls of their homes, on their elders and their young ones, on their women and on their men and on their guests. All of them will be accursed except those who believe and cut asunder from them and keep away from their company. They will be under divine mercy. (*Ayenah Kamalat Islam, *p. 569)

[kchughtai]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

@smooth_guy

In the meantime you can please read Rohani Khazain from the link I provided.
Consquently Hakeem Naseeruddin had to alter the original prophecy to (any Ahmedia male to marry any female from Ahmed Baig’s family).
Later Ahmediya Jamat defended the prophecy as it was conditional (though there is no mention of conditions in MGA’s writings) to her family coming back to Islam. Since, they did come back to Islam, his marriage to MB was not neccessary. But this doesn’t sit well with MGA’s own words in which he had to have three wives with certain names part of their names. You can check out in the link on that page.

I am sure you yourself have not counter-checked the quoted link. Don’t worry, this point will be covered. for the time being, read a few lines before the quote.

Kindly note that reference to Hazrat Younis’ prophecy of Azab is mentioned.

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[Prince_Ali]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

You guys also consider Isa(as) as the last prophet that the world will see. Don't you?

Wrong!

Hazrat Isa (A.S) will return as an ummati of Prophet Muhammad (SAW), as a muslim. Not as a prophet.

[kakaballi]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

Okay. I admit I don’t know much about the issues here and therefore not taking sides.

The problem with prophecies is that interpretation of future events can be easily molded or explained in ways so as to make prophecies true or false. The ridiculous (in my opinion) attempts to reconcile Pope Francis’s election as the Pope with ‘prophecies of the prophets’ is a good example.
There are so many ways to interpret prophecies. Followers would always believe prophecies of their leader are fulfilled and there are a hundred ways to bend events to link the chain of events to the prophecy. If you like to believe the prophecy is not fulfilled, there are a hundred ways of going about it as well.

The idea is that once you have already decided that you believe a certain person or not, the fulfillment or otherwise of his/her prophecies would have little impact on that decision. AND if you have not yet decided if you believe that person or not, then fulfillment of prophecies should not be a major input into your decision.

[kchughtai]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

First, let me complete what I have to say. I will show you what were exact words of the prophecy in question.

continuing from my post #28

A number of warnings were issued by hazrat Ahmed and even a series of calamities hit that family but they didn't receded in their defiance.

Muhammadi Begum's own parents, as fate would have, required assistance of Hazrat Ahmad in matters of estate. Hence, her father, Mirza Ahmad Beg turned to Hazrat Ahmad for assistance with great humility and meekness. Hazrat Ahmad although inclined to bestow the favour sought to him, informed Mirza Ahmad Beg that as was customary with him to supplicate God Almighty by way of Istikharah on all important matters, he would do the same on this occasion and return to Mirza Ahmad Beg later.
Hazrat Ahmad stated:

"Thereafter, on account of his persistence, I supplicate in the form of Istikharah and that became the occasion for God to display a Sign" *[Announcement: 10th July, 1888]*

Hazrat Ahmad informed Mirza Ahmad Beg that he has been directed by God Almighty to advise him 'to establish a relationship with Hazrat Ahmad by giving his elder daughter, Muhammadi Begum, in marriage to Hazrat Ahmad and thus obtain light from his light' [Ayenae Kamalat e Islam p 572]

At that point in time, Hazrat Ahmad was 53 years of age and happily married to a pious lady of noble stock, Hazrat Nusrat Jahan Begum, descendant of Nawab Mir Dard. It is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt that Hazrat Ahmad was not given to worldly pleasures. This is indicated by the fact that although his first marriage to Hurmat Bibi had broken down when he was only 21, yet for then next 28 years of his life, he did not remarry.

On the contrary, he lead a life of celibacy and devoted these youthful years of his life to the service of Islam and remained content with his religious and literary pursuits. Hence, any man with a sense of justice and fair play, would not even remotely, think of attributing to Hazrat Ahmad, profane desires in relation to this episode of Hazrat Ahmad's life. He himself, irrespective of what anti-Ahmadi groups allege, had no desire to seek this marriage with Muhammadi Begum and he declared quite categorically that he 'stood in no need of seeking this match since God had provided for all his needs' [Announcement: 15th July, 1888]

Hazrat Ahmad was obliged to obey the command of his Lord and admonished the father of Muhammedi Begum which he did in conveying the Divine message to the effect that if Mirza Ahmad Beg: "does not accept it and his daughter is married to someone else, that marriage would not prove a blessing either for his daughter or for himself. Tell him that if he persists in carrying out a different design, he will become subject to a series of misfortunes, the last of which would be his death within three years of the marriage of his daughter to someone else. Warn him that his death is near and will occur at a time when does not expect it. The husband of the daughter will die within two years and a half. This is Divine decree." [Ayenae Kamalat e Islam: p 572]

[kchughtai]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

Regrettably, Mirza Ahmad Beg, the father of Muhammadi Begum remained defiant. He treated Hazrat Ahmad's counsel with contempt and made every effort to publicly ridicule Hazrat Ahmad. Mirza Ahmad Beg and his family joined forces with Christian missionaries and published Hazrat Ahmad's letter in a Christian newspaper which in turn resulted in great deal of adverse criticism, not so much of Hazrat Ahmad but of Islam itself. [Arya Patrika, Lahore: 12th June 1888]

     Hence in this atmosphere. Mirza Ahmad Beg's own family finally invoked          the wrath of God upon itself and the wheels of Divine wrath began to grind.          In the first of a series of tragedies, Mirza Ahmad Beg lost his son, Mirza          Mahmud Beg in July 1890 at which time Hazrat Ahmad offered his condolences          and assured the aggrieved father of his sincerity and sympathy by stating:         

"You might be feeling ruffled at heart on account of me, but the Omniscient knows that the heart of this humble one is absolutely pure and I wish you well in every way." [Dard. A.R Life of Ahmad: p 245]

During this fatal period , Muhammadi Begum's grandmother and one of her sisters also, became victims of the prophecy. However, Mirza Ahmad Beg chose to persist in his arrogance. **

In April 1892, he married his daughter to Mirza Sultan Muhammad and within six months of Muhammadi Begum's marriage, Mirza Ahmad Beg died of typhoid in September 1892, hence fulfilling the prophecy issued on the 10 of July 1888, to the effect that he would:****
"die within three years of the marriage of his daughter" [Ayenae Kamalat e Islam: p 572]**

[kchughtai]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

Historical facts record that the death of Mirza Ahmad Beg, the family ceased to be abusive toward 'God Almighty, His noble Prophet, Hazrat Muhammad Mustapha (pbuh), and also His sacred Book, the Holy Quran.' In fact, as events turned out, the family began to turn to Islam for solace and its members sought forgiveness for their misdeeds. They even supplicated Hazrat Ahmad to intercede on their behalf so that God Almighty, in His Infinite Mercy, save them further torment and remove the curse decreed upon them

- a fact admitted by Maulvi Sanaullah Amritsari himself. Ref: Amritsari, Maulvi Sanaullah: Illhamat Mirza: p 69]

Amongst those who repented and pledged their allegiance to Islam at the hands of Hazrat Ahmad were:

1. )Omrun Nisa Bibi, widow of the deceased Mirza Ahmad Beg and mother of Muhammadi Begum; 2) Muhammadi Begum's sisters: Inayat Begum 3) Mahmooda Begum 4) their brother, Mirza Muhammad Beg 5) Mirza Ishaq Beg 6) son of Muhammadi Begum: Mirza Ahmad Hussan 7) son in law of Mirza Ahmad Beg: Mirza Gul Muhammad and 8) her sister, the only surviving children of Mirza Nizam Din; Hurmat Bibi, sister of Muhammadi Begum's mother 9) her daughter; Tai Saheba and Khurshid Begum. Anjam e Athim 211/213]

In view of the established practice of God Almighty, as has been one would expect that at this point in time, when Muhammadi Begum's dissident family began to repent and seek God Almighty's forgiveness, He, in His Infinite Mercy, would recall the decree of punishment issued against them since He had no further case to chastise them. And this, as subsequent events proved, is exactly what God Almighty did, in accordance with His Divine promise: "If they repent and reform, We shall turn to them with mercy and shall give up Our design of their punishment. Thus will they experience whatever they choose."Anjam e Athim: 211/213]

[arshad5]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

Background of this Issue

The background of this prophecy was that some of the relatives of the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, were atheists and mocked at Islam. God Almighty designed to show them a sign so that those who might take advantage of it may be saved and those who might reject it may be punished. Their condition is depicted by him as follows:

God Almighty found my cousins and other relatives a prey to irreligious thinking and given to misconduct. They were held in the grip of their passions, denied the existence of God and were disorderly. (Ayenah Kamalat Islam, p.566)

He states further:

It so happened that one evening a person came to me weeping and I became apprehensive and asked him whether he had received the news of the death of anyone. To this he replied in the negative and said that the matter was graver than that. He explained that he had been sitting with those people who have become apostates from the divine faith and one of them uttered vile abuse against the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, such as has not been heard even from the mouth of a disbeliever. He mentioned that these people dishonor the Holy Quran and utter things that one dare not repeat. They assert that there is no God and that the concept of God is an imposture. Having heard him I reminded him that I had already warned him against keeping company with such people. (Ayenah Kamalat Islam,p. 568)

The Promised Messiah, peace be on him, further states:

T*hese people wrote a letter to me in which they reviled the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, and denied the existence of God and demanded proofs of my truth and of the existence of God. They published this letter and supported the non-Muslims of India and exhibited extreme wickedness. (*Ayenah Kamalat Islam, p. 568)**

This letter was published in a Christian newspaper ‘Chashma-e-Noor’, Amritsar, August 13, 1885

On their demanding a sign, the Promised Messiah, peace be on him, turned to prayer and supplicated earnestly for a Divine sign to be exhibited in respect of them. God Almighty responded to him and he received the revelation:

I have observed their misconduct and wickedness and I shall soon destroy them under heaven through different types of calamities and you will soon see how I shall deal with them. I have power to do all that I will, I shall make their women widows and their children orphans and shall ruin their homes so that they might be punished for their misdeeds. I shall not destroy them at one stroke but gradually so that they might *turn *back and repent. My curse will descend upon the walls of their homes, on their elders and their young ones, on their women and on their men and on their guests. All of them will be accursed except those who believe and cut asunder from them and keep away from their company. They will be under divine mercy. (*Ayenah Kamalat Islam, *p. 569)

Mohammadi Begum and her relatives were simple and pious muslims. However they did not follow Mirza Ghulam Ahmad so perhaps that is why he is accusing them of being bad muslims, after his marriage proposal was rejected.

Despite maintaining that marriage to Mohammadi was will of god and god told him that she would be his wife, and then even stating that she would become a widow and still marry him after his marriage to her failed to take place. When both of these prophecies proved to be wrong only then after many years did Mirza Ghulam Ahmad make his phophecies conditional and tried to justify why they did not come true.

[psyah]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

Isa (AS) is not "The Final Prophet" he is not "The Seal of Prophethood" ... he (AS) is a prophet who is alive and he dwelt with us before Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) and will dwell us in our future again. But finality of prophethood has since come on the hands of RasoolAllah (SAW). So when Sayyiduna Isa (AS) lives with us again he will be the best of the followers of RasoolAllah (SAW) ... his title will remain prophet, he will retain his miracles, but he (AS) will not bring new wahi, he will bring an understanding of the Qur'an and Sunnah that is perfect.

Once prophethood comes it does not end ... But the Seal of Prophethood is specifically in reference to the lineage of prophets ... by birth no prophet will be born after Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) and no message will overrule the message of Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) except where it has been prophesised already. Such as in the case of the abolishing of the jizyah.

[psyah]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

Isa (AS) is not "The Final Prophet" he is not "The Seal of Prophethood" ... he (AS) is a prophet who is alive and he dwelt with us before Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) and will dwell us in our future again. But finality of prophethood has since come on the hands of RasoolAllah (SAW). So when Sayyiduna Isa (AS) lives with us again he will be the best of the followers of RasoolAllah (SAW) ... his title will remain prophet, he will retain his miracles, but he (AS) will not bring new wahi, he will bring an understanding of the Qur'an and Sunnah that is perfect.

Once prophethood comes it does not end ... But the Seal of Prophethood is specifically in reference to the lineage of prophets ... by birth no prophet will be born after Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) and no message will overrule the message of Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) except where it has been prophesised already by him (SAW). Such as in the case of the abolishing of the jizyah.

[kchughtai]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

Isa (AS) is not "The Final Prophet" he is not "The Seal of Prophethood" ... **he (AS) is a prophet who is alive and **he dwelt with us before Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) and will dwell us in our future again. But finality of prophethood has since come on the hands of RasoolAllah (SAW). So when Sayyiduna Isa (AS) lives with us *again **he will be the best of the followers of RasoolAllah (SAW) ... his title will remain prophet, he will retain his miracles, but he (AS) will not bring new wahi (*new shariah), he will bring an understanding of the Qur'an and Sunnah that is correct.

Once prophethood comes it does not end ... But the Seal of Prophethood is specifically in reference to the lineage of prophets ... by birth no prophet will be born after Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) **and no message will overrule the message of Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) except where it has been prophesised already by him (SAW). **Such as in the case of the abolishing of the jizyah.

Agree to the highlighted part even if in the above text, Isa (as) (2nd coming) is replaced by Massih-e-Muhammadi

[kchughtai]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

Mohammadi Begum and her relatives were simple and pious muslims. However they did not follow Mirza Ghulam Ahmad so perhaps that is why he is accusing them of being bad muslims, after his marriage proposal was rejected.

Aha.. simple and pious. what is your basis of your claim. I have given two references of their insulting words were given publicity by anti-Islam Christian newspaper in 1885 and by Arya samaji paper in 1888. They were innocents since Mirza sahib was in opposition. Kindly read what I have posted before passing comments.

[quote]

Despite maintaining that marriage to Mohammadi was will of god and god told him that she would be his wife, and then even stating that she would become a widow and still marry him after his marriage to her failed to take place. When both of these prophecies proved to be wrong only then after many years did Mirza Ghulam Ahmad make his phophecies conditional and tried to justify why they did not come true.
[/QUOTE]

please provide proof that the prophecies were not conditional. Apart from this discussion, you must know that Allah's warning of punishment is always by default conditional since he is Rehman and Rahim. He holds his wrath back if He sees a change in the behavior. Can you tell me why Muhammadi Begum's son and her mother (wife of Ahmad beg) became ahmadi. Can you expect this from a son if your version is correct

[psyah]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad

Agree to the highlighted part even if in the above text, Isa (as) (2nd coming) is replaced by Massih-e-Muhammadi

How can you agree with me that "no new wahi" will come when you already believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed received wahi ...?

Also, how can you believe that Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is the best follower and has the best understanding of Qur'an and Sunnah when on the flip side - he is being given concessions such as in the case of marriage by breaking another marriage? This pattern is not consistent with a follower of the Deen, but it could be of a law changer ... a person who sits above the law or in a law of his own. You clearly believe he was a prophet with jurisdiction that supersedes the law brought by Sayyiduna Muhammad (SAW) and if not then you must concede that his marriage was wrong. Since you assert that his marriage was by favour of Allah (SWT) then you cannot at the same time assert he was a follower ...