Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

[hanibal]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

You have finally shown that either you are very naive or very biased. If you are naive, then I am surprised that you still dont get it. If you are bigotted, then I cant expect anything better from you.

The above mentioned quotes, if you care to take the whole argument from the books of Promised Messiah (as), will show that these are valid arguments against false christian beliefs. Christians literally believe in all the above, yet they try to show that their fictional son of god is superior to all the others. These are not attacks against Jesus (as), the Noble prophet of God, but against a fictional character invented by the Church to commit the gravest sins against truth.

I think this is highly unlikely that you will try to read the original books from which these quotes are taken. And you will not try to understand the context of these arguments either. The context of these arguments is that the Christians attacked the Holy Prophet (saw) with vilest allegations . The best way to respond to them was to show them the mirror of their own beliefs. It had nothing to do with the real Jesus (as). The link I provided in one of my previous posts contains similar arguments raised by many classical islamic scholars and same issues were raised by them to counter christian attacks against islam.

I have been called by even worst names by qadyanies then Naive or Biased (personal insults are getting stronger by every reply, isn't it) , that shows that how frustrated u r? on the above posting.

now calling Jesus a Liar? son of Sluts! how does this is considered as a counter argument? thats what i was asking from u and u were looking here and there!! and that i have posted ( i can post lot more stuff like this) the arguments, u r saying that this is in defence of Jesus.

Let me say if some one is defending me like that and the person is not MAD, then he will be in big trouble.

U sound like he did it to counter attack on chiristians, now in the same book he also says that we should not insult Jesus, and look what he himself is doing!!! As far as Muslims are concerned None of the Prophet is a Subject of Debate, The respect for all of them in a must otherwise one cannot claim to be a Muslim.
Our Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) has stopped us from calling bad names for the personalities of other religions. but look what Mr. Mirza is up to, he him self is on the least level on Moral grounds.

defenders like Him, who need invaders.

Tonight i'll post some more quotes, sit tight:)

[hanibal]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

Since we are looking forward for sensable response from our qadyani members for their Position on Jesus (AS) lets see what Mr. Mirza has to say about Jihad.

We have Seen above that, Qadyani members have expressed their religious stance of Jihad, let see What Mr. Mirza Says in Rohani Khazain.

"Jihad yani deeni laRiyooN key shidat ko Khuda ta'la ahista ahista kam kerta gaya hay. Hazrat Mousa kay waqt main iss qadr shidat thee keh Iman lana bhi qatl say nahi bacha sakta tha aur sheer khawar bachay bhi qatal ker diya jatay thay. Phir Hamaray Nabi (PBUH) kay waqt main aurtoN, bachooN aur BudhooN ka qatl kerna haraam kya gaya aur phir ba'az qomooN kay liya bajaye Iman kay Jaziya day ker mo'akhazay say nijaat pana qabool kya gaya aur phir Masheeh Maw'ood kay waqt qata'n jihad moqooof ker dya gaya"

and then there is small poem agains jihaad, which is

Ab choR do jihad ka aay dostooN khayal
DeeN kay liya haraam hay ab jang.o.Qitaal

Ab Aa'gaya maseeh ju deeN ka Imam hay
deeN kay tamam jangoN ka ab Ikhtay'taam hay

An AssmanooN say Nor-e-Khuda ka nazool hay
Ab Jang aur Jihad ka fatwa fazool hay

Dushman hay Khuda ka ju kerta hay ab Jihad
Munker nabi ka hay ju rakhta hay yeh ait'qaad

In another book called Tableegh-e-Risalat Mr. Mirza had following statement for Jihad.

" Aaj say inaani Jihad ju talwaar say kya jata tha, Khuda kay hukm kay saath band kiya gaya. ab iss kay baad ju shakhs kafir pr talwar uThata aur apna naam ghazi rakhta hay, woh uss Rasool Kareem (PBUH) key key na'fermaani kerta hay jis nay aaj say 1300 saal pehlay farma diya hay kay Maseeh Ma'ood kay aanay per Talwaar kay Jihad khatam ho jayaiN gay. So ab meray zahoor kay baad talwaar ka koy Jihad nahi. Hamari tarf say Amaan aur sulaah kari ka jhanDa buland kya gaya

[Submission_To_Peace]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

A person in my university was preaching the teachings of Mirza Ghulam ahmed to students in our hostal. I requested him to bring one book to me as well, which he did.

The next day I asked him if the whole book was written by mirza shahab himself. He said yes, each and every words is written by himself. It is the orignal writing without any change or translation.

I showed him a sentence from the book and requested him to honestly think if any saint, waliullah or a morally good person could use such a sentence.

The sentence was*" Jo meri pervi nahin karega woh kuttey ki maut marega"*

The guy became speechless and had no answer.

[Submission_To_Peace]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

I think Mirza Sahab must have respect, love and obedience for the Prophet Muhammad (saw). He would surely have loved to follow all the “Clearly stated” sunnahs of the Prophet (saw)

With all due respect to Mirza sahab I think he should have followed the sunnah of the Prophet (saw) by trimming his mustashes (atleast a bit more) as with such big mustaches it is not easy to drink water without making water “Makrooh” for yourself, which is also not good for health.

[hareem01]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

^Good point brother.

[Seminole]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

Perhaps he drinks water through a straw?

[Destino]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

So you believe whatever 'fight' Pakistan army does is considered a "jihad"?

BTW, what do Ahmadis think of other Muslims as? Non-Muslims/Deviant/Munkar (denier of 'messenger' MGAQ)?

Also, you said Qital is "defensive" war, does it mean there can be no "offense"? Where is it derived from?

Can you shed some more light on "Furqan Force"? What is it, what it did and what is it doing now?

Fighting a war to defend your homeland is Jihad. But it has to be a regular war, not insurgency or suicide bombings. Furqan force was only formed for Kashmir freedom struggle. It was disbanded after the matter was taken to UN.

Qital can only be for defense. But offensive tactics can be used to achieve that defense.. We have the Sunnah of Holy Prophet (saw) in front of us. There can not be any doubt in this regard, that medieval wars were for medieval times. Changez khan and Halaku were part of an era when such wars were the norms and to fight against them in conventional "medieval" manner was absolutely Quranic. In modern world, wars are fought more in trades, scientific research and commerce etc, then on the ground. The invasions of Iraq, Afghanistan etc are examples of such wars and muslim failed to do the proper Jihad in this case. The proper Jihad was to ensure diplomatic strength, allies, strong economies first. When a country's majority welcomes the invaders then there can not be a Jihad.. When the leaders of nations run away into hiding in caves and boast of imaginary victories, there can not be any Jihad.

Ahmadis consider the non-ahmadis as "Deniars of Imam Mahdi".. Not as non-muslims as you will try to imply next..

[Destino]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

@Submission_To_Peace

I think Mirza Sahab must have respect, love and obedience for the Prophet Muhammad (saw). He would surely have loved to follow all the “Clearly stated” sunnahs of the Prophet (saw)

With all due respect to Mirza sahab I think he should have followed the sunnah of the Prophet (saw) by trimming his mustashes (atleast a bit more) as with such big mustaches it is not easy to drink water without making water “Makrooh” for yourself, which is also not good for health.

http://www.ahmadiyya.org/hmga.jpg

The clearly stated Hadith states the moustache should be trimmed. This is to ensure that no hair are covering the upper lip. The ahle hadith version of beard is ridiculous exaggeration of this trimming.

[Destino]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

A person in my university was preaching the teachings of Mirza Ghulam ahmed to students in our hostal. I requested him to bring one book to me as well, which he did.

The next day I asked him if the whole book was written by mirza shahab himself. He said yes, each and every words is written by himself. It is the orignal writing without any change or translation.

I showed him a sentence from the book and requested him to honestly think if any saint, waliullah or a morally good person could use such a sentence.

The sentence was*" Jo meri pervi nahin karega woh kuttey ki maut marega"*

The guy became speechless and had no answer.

Can you tell me which book it was?

BTW, Quran says that those who reject and oppose the prophets LIVE LIKE DOGS. want reference?

[Destino]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

I have been called by even worst names by qadyanies then Naive or Biased (personal insults are getting stronger by every reply, isn't it) , that shows that how frustrated u r? on the above posting.

now calling Jesus a Liar? son of Sluts! how does this is considered as a counter argument? thats what i was asking from u and u were looking here and there!! and that i have posted ( i can post lot more stuff like this) the arguments, u r saying that this is in defence of Jesus.

Let me say if some one is defending me like that and the person is not MAD, then he will be in big trouble.

U sound like he did it to counter attack on chiristians, now in the same book he also says that we should not insult Jesus, and look what he himself is doing!!! As far as Muslims are concerned None of the Prophet is a Subject of Debate, The respect for all of them in a must otherwise one cannot claim to be a Muslim. Our Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) has stopped us from calling bad names for the personalities of other religions. but look what Mr. Mirza is up to, he him self is on the least level on Moral grounds.

defenders like Him, who need invaders.

Tonight i'll post some more quotes, sit tight:)

OK.. So you have not even read the replies on www.alislam.org. Otherwise you would have included many revered muslims saints and scholars in your list of those who have insulted Jesus (as).. These included Qasim Nanotuwi of Deobandis and Ala-Hazrat of Barelvis..

[hanibal]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

@Destino

OK.. So you have not even read the replies on www.alislam.org. Otherwise you would have included many revered muslims saints and scholars in your list of those who have insulted Jesus (as).. These included Qasim Nanotuwi of Deobandis and Ala-Hazrat of Barelvis..

I disassosiate my self fromt he persons who used such langauge against a noble personality!!!

can u do that?

[hanibal]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

@Destino

OK.. So you have not even read the replies on www.alislam.org. Otherwise you would have included many revered muslims saints and scholars in your list of those who have insulted Jesus (as).. These included Qasim Nanotuwi of Deobandis and Ala-Hazrat of Barelvis..

I disassosiate my self fromt he persons who used such langauge against a noble personality!!!

can u do that?

[Submission_To_Peace]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

The clearly stated Hadith states the moustache should be trimmed. This is to ensure that no hair are covering the upper lip.

Exactly!!

Can you tell me which book it was?

BTW, Quran says that those who reject and oppose the prophets LIVE LIKE DOGS. want reference?

I don't remember the name of the book. Was a difficult name. I think in some place in the book Mirza sahab had mentioned the ship of Hazrat Nooh (a.s)

Kindly do provide the refference of that Quranic verse.

[Destino]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

I disassosiate my self fromt he persons who used such langauge against a noble personality!!!

can u do that?

I can not dissociate myself from the greatest reformer of Muslim Ummah. I do not believe for a second that he ever insulted Jesus (as), the prophet of God and son of Mary (as). You obviously have missed the whole point.

You rather listen to the vile allegations of Christian orientalists and missionaries against our Master, the Holy Prophet (saw) and stay quiet.

[Destino]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

@Submission_To_Peace

Exactly!!

I don’t remember the name of the book. Was a difficult name. I think in some place in the book Mirza sahab had mentioned the ship of Hazrat Nooh (a.s)

Kindly do provide the refference of that Quranic verse.

Here is the link to the book you referred to.

http://www.alislam.org/urdu/rk/rk-19-63.pdf

And the verse from Quran.

Chapter 7 (Al-A`raf): Verse 177
Read Arabic Script | Read Translation From: SC | 5V | UR | TS

And if We pleased, We would have exalted him thereby; but he inclined to the earth and followed his evil desires. His case, therefore, is like the case of a thirsty dog; if thou drive him away, he hangs out his tongue and if thou leave him, he hangs out his tongue. Such is the case of the people who disbelieve in Our Signs. So relate to them this narrative that they may reflect.

[Submission_To_Peace]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

@Destino

The clearly stated Hadith states the moustache should be trimmed. This is to ensure that no hair are covering the upper lip. The ahle hadith version of beard is ridiculous exaggeration of this trimming.

Again no disrespect or offense intended. Just an honest view.

Unlike Mirza Ghulam Ahmed sahab, Mirza Nasir Ahmed and Mirza Masroor Ahmed easily come up to the clearly stated hadith condition of “to ensure that no hair are covering the upper lip” (as you yourself mentioned).Let us compare.

http://www.ahmadija.ba/galerija/licnosti/halifa3.jpg

http://www.amjinternational.org/content/1_pics_intro/1_content/pics/huzur.jpg

Now Mirza Tahir Ahmed sahab clearly have a different mustash as it is more trimmed, that might be a good example of the ahle hadith version which you mentioned as exaggeration of trimming.

Atleast Mirza Tahir ahmed’s seems to have preferred to keep a mustache like that of Ahle hadith (or like that of sunnis of present time which they believe as sunnah of the Prophet (saw)) than to keep a mustache like Mirza Ghulam Ahmed sahab (which covers the upper lip to quite some extent).

[hanibal]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

I can not dissociate myself from the greatest reformer of Muslim Ummah. I do not believe for a second that he ever insulted Jesus (as), the prophet of God and son of Mary (as). You obviously have missed the whole point.

You rather listen to the vile allegations of Christian orientalists and missionaries against our Master, the Holy Prophet (saw) and stay quiet.

Well u can call Mr. Mirza a great man as per ur belief, but iam sure that he and his believe have nothing to do with Islam.
Secondly if i have missed the point then please do explain me the point and please don't give me the links.. we are talking here y dont u copy paste the material here...

anyway u said Qital was allowed but i have posted some quotes from Mr. Mirza which contradicts ur reply... care to explain...

Now u have two things

1) Stance of Mr. Mirza on Jesus (AS)
2) Jihad

quotes are above please explain them to us.

[Destino]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

@Submission_To_Peace

Again no disrespect or offense intended. Just an honest view.

Unlike Mirza Ghulam Ahmed sahab, Mirza Nasir Ahmed and Mirza Masroor Ahmed easily come up to the clearly stated hadith condition of “to ensure that no hair are covering the upper lip” (as you yourself mentioned).Let us compare.

http://www.ahmadiyya.org/hmga.jpg

http://www.ahmadija.ba/galerija/licnosti/halifa3.jpg

http://www.amjinternational.org/content/1_pics_intro/1_content/pics/huzur.jpg

Now Mirza Tahir Ahmed sahab clearly have a different mustash as it is more trimmed, that might be a good example of the ahle hadith version which you mentioned as exaggeration of trimming.

http://www.ahmadiyya.ca/images/pics/khalifatulmasih-4_wc.jpg

Atleast Mirza Tahir ahmed’s seems to have preferred to keep a mustache like that of Ahle hadith (or like that of sunnis of present time which they believe as sunnah of the Prophet (saw)) than to keep a mustache like Mirza Ghulam Ahmed sahab (which covers the upper lip to quite some extent).

I think you are basing your view on a picture which was taken 120 years ago. It is black and white and is not clear enough to assume that the moustache was not trimmed enough. The way I see it, there is nothing contrary to Sunnah in this particular picture or for this matter in all other picutres. I think there are 4 or 5 known pictures of Promised Messiah (as). I have seen pictures of many companions of Promised Messiah (as) and it is clear from their appearance that none of them used razors to trim their moutaches. The purpose of the Hadith was to ensure that muslims kept the hair away from the upper lip. Through personal experience I can say that moutache which is kept above the lip by occasional trimming does not interfere with drinking water if you drink from a glass.

And as for styling your facial hair, there is no restriction on how much you take off with razors to sculpt your beard and moustache to your liking. It should look decent atleast.

[Captain1]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

Ahmadis consider the non-ahmadis as "Deniars of Imam Mahdi".. Not as non-muslims as you will try to imply next..

You seem to be jumping to your own conclusions, I've asked few Ahmadis on this forum in past some of them dodged the question and some said that they consider non-believer of GAQ of same status as "Muslims" think of Jews who don't believe in Jesus PBUH, Christians who don't believe in Prophet Mohammed PBUH etc. so going in same directions the 'non-believer of GAQ' would become a "non-Muslim" or out of "believers" status (a believer no more).

[Captain1]

Re: Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani & IsLam

Fighting a war to defend your homeland is Jihad. But it has to be a regular war, not insurgency or suicide bombings. Furqan force was only formed for Kashmir freedom struggle. It was disbanded after the matter was taken to UN.

Qital can only be for defense. But offensive tactics can be used to achieve that defense....

The same set of 'ahadith' which tell us about "coming" messiah also tell us that he will abolish (stop) any jihad, but you are saying that Ahmadis still fight jihad??