Miracles & Magic

Re: Miracles & Magic

Peace Mughal1 brother

Mutawatir means that there are multiple chains that are cross-linked and unbroken ... So some Hadith which are called Sahih and the Qur'an as a whole qualify ... further reasons for the preservation of the Qur'an is because it is Divinely protected ... Also, I never said that Hadith is more important than Qur'an ...

The hadith topic came about because I said that Hadith and Qur'an should used to contextualise verses of the Qur'an. You disagreed with me because of some problems you have said exist but in fact do not exist.

All of this stems from the idea you gave that we should use rationale to decipher the scripture ... And you said that you do not believe in miracles ... You called them make-belief ... I cannot accept that because the ulema ... .i.e. Learned scholars formulated aqeedahs from the Qur'an and Sunnah and to believe in miracles is part of our faith ... These were put together by 'alims ... Not mullahs ...

Do you believe that the Qur'an is a miracle? Do you believe it is The Uncreated Word of God?

Re: Miracles & Magic

Dear brother psyah, I did not say that each person must know everything in the quran but we must make efforts to know things as much as we can. Discussion is not about things which none of us knows and there is no sense in that kind of discussion unless we are trying to find out how to know what we do not know.

We can only discuss things that we know are right or wrong and can know they are right or wrong.

How Allah revealed the quran to the prophet is a similar question to how Allah created the universe out of nothing. May be he has told it in the quran but we are yet unaware of it. All we know is we are here and the quran is here and it makes sense to accept the idea that we have a creator and master who taught us his words. No man can create the universe and no man can write a book like the quran because both are out of reach of human capacity.

Proof necessarily fills gaps by way of reason not necessarily by way of total chain of evidences. The existence of creation and revelation are both a mystery that is solved by rational explanation. I never claimed that I saw Allah giving the quran to the prophet. It was prophet who claimed prophet-hood from Allah and to prove it he put forth the quran as his evidence. When I examined the quran I accepted his claim because I see the information in the quran which could not come from anyone other than creator and sustainer of this universe. I see no man clever enough even today to discuss things that the quran discusses.

So if no man even today is as clever as could produce the quran like book then how could one when most people never even knew reading and writing?

If we start discussing the quranic way of life we will all be surprised how little we know about the quran.

If you therefore want to call the creation and the revelation miracles so be it but accepting rest of false stories as miracles I cannot accept because things do have alternative explanations. They are more of magic of misinterpretations and misrepresentations by mullahs as I see things. If you are happy to accept them that is your right but it is not free of consequences.

regards and all the best.

Re: Miracles & Magic

dear brother psyah, I don't see any other way of interpreting the quran properly than following reason and evidence and the same is true for hadith or historical accounts. Of course I accept that may be there are things that are beyond evidence but not necessarily beyond reason. My problem is with people who turn each and everything into mystery in order to confuse people who are already ignorant, illiterate and uneducated. Our this discussion lifts curtain from that. Genuine mysteries are mysteries for all of us and none of us can explain them till any of us discovers them. The same is true for ulema of quran as it is for scientists.

regards and all the best.

Re: Miracles & Magic

So brother Mughal1 do you believe in time we will work out how the Qur'an was revealed and we will be able to reproduce its like?

Or are we going to reject the Qur'an as being a miracle just as we couldn't explain the fire of Abraham we dismissed that as a story (I mean you reject it) ... So will we dismiss the idea of the holy Qur'an coming via angel Gabriel (AS) as just a story? Because I can tell you now ... We will not ever learn how it was revealed.

Re: Miracles & Magic

Dear brother psyah, as I have explained already, no matter how much we come to know about the universe or the revelation we cannot reproduce them. The reason is that no matter what we will never be able to create mater out of nothing like Allah did. Likewise the information the quran is telling us is beyond human capacity to know the way it is told in the quran. This is not about copying the text of the quran but the actual vast amount of information the way it is expressed in the quran. The quran has in it information that is yet to come true in perhaps billions of years. Humanity does not have such capacity in its brain to foretell things this far ahead. This is why it can never bring forth a book like the quran.

As for story of prophet Ibraheem and fire, that has been explained in context of the quran already and so have been other stories. As I said before, there are alternative rational or reason based explanation available for all these stories. It is magic of mullahs ignorance that they have turned clear things into mysteries.

You should not equate creation and revelation with these make belief miracles because by no means anyone can prove their necessity. If anyone will ever prove their necessity then their rational explanation will be eliminated but may be not because proof and proving is always about explanation of evidences so miracles can never be proof of anything because they can never be explained rationally, so we are back to square one because proof can only be rational or reason based.

If you think about it you are trying to make me see sense in miracles which in itself is your appeal to reason, so if at the end of the day we have to fall back on reason based explanation then why go through all this nonsense?

Moreover any miracle is said to be momentarily experience of few present at the scene of event. What purpose can that serve if any, particularly when humans cannot trust even their own senses 100% due to falling victims to illusions or each other when they tell things to each other that are unbelievable?

Moreover if Allah wants people to obey his laws then that means laws are made to be obeyed for purpose of consistency and regulation of things and if Allah himself breaks laws to show people things then people will also have right to break laws to show things to each other. How does it reflect on Allah? Because if Allah is forced by his own set-up to breach his own systems, processes, mechanisms and laws then who else is good enough to follow laws for sake of consistency and regulation? Does it not mean the plan of Allah was not right to begin with so it needed fixing here and there after the whole thing has been initiated?

The quran repeatedly draws our attention to natural world and the way things work in it for the simple reason that we learns lessons from that and then be able to show our own creativity by becoming learned and skilful people. So reasoning things out is what the quran teaches us, why? Because reasoning is the only thing that could help us develop and grow. Why should we grow biologically, psychologically and sociologically? Because Allah has set us goals with guidelines and goals cannot be achieved without enabling ourselves to accomplish the needed tasks.

Just look at the earth in context of the rest of the universe, does it make sense that Allah should create such vast universe just so that we just sit here in the earth for ever? No, we are universal travellers to see creation of Allah that is why we are created with huge potential and abilities to discover things for ourselves and see wonders of Allah's creativity.

So we have yet to discover a lot of things within the quranic text, we have not even begun yet. Great miracles are still to take place so all we need to do is get ourselves ready for that and prepare our future generation to do a better job than us.

Man is not called ashraf almakhluqaat for nothing. He has yet to prove by his thoughts and actions that he is. Just think about it that if a cow was put in the human brain, could it accomplish anything like a human being? No, because human brain also needed human senses and human body to go with it. A clear proof that nothing in the animal kingdom is like a human being. So Allah has created him for his own reasons and they are certainly not what mullahs told us ie isolating ourselves from everything treating it as rubbish and sitting in a jungle on a rock shouting Allah hu. The ultimate purpose of creation of man is appreciation of divine being through his expression in form of universe and revelation.

regards and all the best.

Re: Miracles & Magic

So what is the alternative rational explanation for the advent of the Qur'an ... ?

We can't imagine an unlettered individual could possibly come up with this ... and it cannot be a miracle either ... So what is it? Is it a compendium of thoughts written by the early Arabs?

Or is it the miraculously revealed Divine Word? We can't just say I don't know ... This is core belief here ... Even if you believe that God made something from nothing that is miraculous ... So you cannot escape miracle ... Please understand that ... And understand the consistency you are forsaking all to make it appear that Pervaiz was correct ...

It is my faith that RasoolAllah (SAW) that there will never be a human more perfect in example of ashraf al makhluqat than him ... Yet all to make yourself sound correct you compromise on this major issue of his perfection as a human ... (SAW) ... I can tell you there are many things very fundamentally different between your beliefs and my own.

Re: Miracles & Magic

Dear brother psyah, you are very right that we are looking at two very different concepts of islam as I already explained if you read my earlier posts. You as I understand from your posts are heavily influenced by mazhabi interpretation of the quran and I am influenced by deeni interpretation of the quran about which perhaps you are not even aware. The reason I already explained in my other posts.

Regardless, for you belief in miracles is so important that every event is a miracle for you even if there is alternative rational explanation for it but for me it is very much against the very purpose of the revelation of the quran. My point is that every event must be explained rationally save where such explanation is not possible at all. In that context there are only two things that we cannot explain other than direct act of God. a) creation of the universe and b) divine revelation. You are tying everything together without distinction and that is what I do not accept. In my view creation necessarily has a creator and even though we cannot link evidently these two we are forced by reason alone to accept this idea. Likewise if the creator has created the world then he must have reason for it therefore unless he tells us why he created us we could not know and that makes revelation a necessity. This is why these two things should not be mixed with a load of other so called miracles. If you must then you must have such a reason that makes them absolute necessity. If you cannot then you cannot convince me to accept idea of random miracles.

As for the person of the prophets, I do not accept that any other person was more suitable for that mission in their time. In that context you are right that our messenger was the best man of his time and comparatively this ummah is best of the ummahs. However, evolution stands true for human development and I do not agree that that our prophet was illiterate. He was best of people in his time means he was above all others in every good way ie he was most knowledgeable even before revelation. What revelation did was make him even higher than he was. It is something like a child is clever and then education makes him even more clever and bright.

Things you are coming up with, to me seem mullahs stuff. Let me try and explain how it came about. You see when muslims became ignorant because they became swamped by converts whom they could not educate at the rate they converted. Since these people came from pagans, jews, christians, parsies etc etc instead of islam their old make beliefs became adopted into muslims over a period of time. When later people debated their make beliefs with muslims, they told make belief stories about their religious figure heads eg christians told muslims jesus was God so he could do amazing things which your prophet could not. Instead of challenging false beliefs of others rationally as per teachings of the quran, muslims too start making up stories about their prophet as well to show that he was greater than jesus for example.

The quran as you know is nothing more than a khatam drood book for getting the forgiveness for the dead among us, this is how people became totally ignorant about the message in the quran. In the quran Allah gives example of jews as donkeys carrying the books, this ummah is doing the very same thing if we really think about it. The quran demands of its readers serious pondering and reflection over its text for getting its message and doing what it says for accomplishing its set goals but we shut our eyes and start from bismillah and end at wannaas. Not knowing much in between.

This is why discussions and debates keep going on and on without any conclusions because we do not want to get rid of our make beliefs that stand in the way of decisive arguments. All this is due to lack of information and skill for making sense of things. The only answer to that is people should become more and more informed and more and more skilful in putting that information together in a sensible way that will help them get out of this situation.

It was proper understanding of the message and its deliverance that our nabi was able to establish divine kingdom within 23 years of his life. For last so many centuries we have been going but only downhill. All because we have not bothered to study the quran for its purpose. We have been living by way of life imposed upon us by others than Allah. So results of our make belief based actions speak for themselves, what more can I say. If we will carry on like this then things are not going to get better but worse.

As for your mentioning of parwez, he was a great scholar of quranic study. Being from among such backward people he rose much higher than anyone could expect. Even so many years after him show me any scholar his level. This does not mean he understood everything and did everything properly but he tried his best and made a huge difference for coming generations. Creation of pakistan had three fronts british raj, hindu revenge and nationalist mullahs. Find out who single handedly delivered knock-out blow. You will be surprised that it was miraz ghaalib who raised concern for muslim ummah after demise of mughal empire in india. Sir syed paid attention to this and worked hard for educating muslims to realise gravity of situation. It was due to struggle of sir syed that there came about people like iqbal and jinnah and parwez.

Mullahs were busy with their nonsense fatwas as usual because they felt threaten by alighar movement.

iqbal and jinnah (by parwez on ptv)
Qyam e Pakistan Aur Allama Iqbal By Allama Parwez - YouTube

TEHRIKE PAKISTAN KI HAQIQI JANG
TEHRIKE PAKISTAN KI HAQIQI JANG - YouTube

ISLAM KAY MUQABIL ISLAM

QURAN AUR SCIENCE
QURAN AUR SCIENCE - YouTube

regards and all the best.

Re: Miracles & Magic

Peace Mughal1

So what is the rational explanation for how Ibrahim (AS) was not burned by the fire, noting that technologies for fire protection were not around in those days and that they would be useless anyway for the duration he (AS) was in the fire anyway. Or how Isa (AS) spoke as a young child ...

Yet you have settled for 2 miracles to accept ... But you reject others this is inconsistency ... If you believe God is so Powerful to make the universe then everything else becomes possible and plausible even. The only way you can argue against miracle is to reject it wholesale. Then there comes the burden of proof ... You have no way of showing your beliefs are true and as per the belief of the best Muslims, whereas we have the Hadith ... You have nothing.

It is extremely troubling that you do not believe that RasoolAllah (SAW) is not the best person of all time ... It is odd that you are referring to human evolution that cannot be proven ... He (SAW) was unlettered ... But was not ignorant ... This is history ... There are du'as where we call him ummi ... (SAW) ... And so revelation you accept is miracle ... At least you accept that much.

May we all be guided ... Ameen.

Re: Miracles & Magic

Dear brother psyah, no doubt the being who has created this vast universe and sent a book like the quran is highly capable of doing things. His power and abilities are not in question but his purpose is.

What mostly people do is imagine God as a being like silly senseless attention seeking kids. Likewise they think God is like a bad mother who makes her kids lazy and crazy so that each time they need something they do not bother doing it themselves instead they run to their mother to do it for them. That is where they trap themselves.

Allah as I understand the quran is a very different being. To try to understand this being we need to stand back and imagine things in a different way.

We are told in the quran that Allah is alpha and omega ie ever living and self sustaining intelligent being. The question is what do living and lively intelligent beings do? They have urge to express themselves. How do they express themselves? Through doing something to show they are alive and intelligent.

In case of Allah the acts of his creation and revelation give clues to his being lively and intelligent. It is fine that Allah expresses himself but what use is that expression which goes unappreciated? Had Allah not created anything it would not have mattered he existed or not and had Allah not created something to appreciate him again it would not have mattered whether Allah existed or not.

It is precisely because Allah was lively and intelligent he had the urge to express himself and it was necessary that he created something in such a way that it showed he was intelligent so that his intelligence is appreciated.

Had Allah created a fully programmed robot like creature then that creature could not truly appreciate him. Also had Allah created a creature that was not intelligent enough to make sense of things all by himself it would again not be able to appreciate Allah's existence and his works. This is why a creature was necessary that was nether fully programmed not totally unable to learn. This creature is human being. A human being is a self programming robot with independent mind and ability to learn. However to learn man needed stimulation ie something to tickle his intelligence into action. So man is not just given brain but senses to go with it as well. Not only that but a precise body mechanism to go with his brain and senses.

So man is born knowing nothing and begins to learn by looking at other things which Allah has created fully programmed and almost fully programmed eg non-living things and living things other than man. As a baby looks at things his brain gets signals and starts processing information it receive through senses. As time passes the collection of experiences increases. Man becomes self aware and aware of universal realities as much as he makes efforts to make sense of them. Once a man becomes highly learned he starts questioning things as to their origin, purpose and how things fulfil their purposes. This is the stage whereat man starts looking for answers for his questions because he realises he cannot go beyond that stage all by himself. This is when revelation of Allah plays its part to guide man a little. If we read the quran, it is therefore full of verses telling man to observe things in the universe and see if it makes sense exactly as explained by Allah in his revelation. Not only that but also that by observing universal realities man ought to copy them and then become skilled in doing things himself. What is the point in this exercise? So that by becoming a creative being man could appreciate intelligence and creativity of Allah. Thus man meets the purpose of his creation by his creator.

The idea of Allah being all powerful and he can do this and that is all mullahs' nonsense. Why? Because no matter what kind of being you are you only do things purposefully not haphazardly like a kid plays with his toys. Before Allah created things he had to decide and precisely program things for functioning in such a way that they fulfilled his purpose of creating things.

So Allah had to control and direct his power of creativity. You do not get a building build by throwing about bricks randomly all over the place. There has to be a decision what you want to do and plan for it and make sure the plan has no mistakes. After all creation of universe is a huge project even for God because that is the best he could come up with. God is unlimited in existence but not in every sense because whatever he does he limited himself to that project by his own choice. All other possibilities no longer remain there as God himself makes choices about things. For example Allah chose to create this world so now he lost the choice of not to create this world because he has already created it. Although God is beyond time in his existence but he is bound by events he himself causes one after the other. This is why his sifaate afaaliya= capabilities for doing things are permanent but his afaal=actions are haadas=non-permanent. When it comes to defining time, it is define as per context of definition eg we have time definition for daily time eg 24 hours a day. The time as defined due to big-bang which only moves forward from the time it went bang. Likewise there was time before the creation of the world which is God's own time in which he acts. In short there is no single fit all definition of time.

All this should show that God of religion is not God of the quran, the quranic God is defined by quran itself. God of religions is God of philosophers and God of quran is God as per his own revelations or revealed scriptures. There is a god as imagine by people and there is a god explained by his own revealed scriptures.

Coming to man and his world and divine guidance, the purpose of divine revelation is to act as stimulus for mankind so that man keeps going in the right direction because if mankind go off the track then purpose of Allah could never come to fruition. So man is given guidance but if he fails to follow it then there is correction mechanism in operation. The set-up systems and laws ensure that man works within given range of spectrum or if you like freedom.

The questions you have raised need a lot of explaining which I can only offer on basis of as and when I have the time. Even this much explanation will tell you how different is my understanding of the quran from your understanding of it. This is why the quran tells us man is best creation of Allah because he has given man the most powerful, brain, senses and body to go with it so that man is fit for fulfilling his purpose or his set goals for man. If man was not given the senses he is given or not the body he is given then could not have the ability to do things he was created to do.

Meanswhile regards and all the best.

Re: Miracles & Magic

[quote]

Dear brother psyah, no doubt the being who has created this vast universe and sent a book like the quran is highly capable of doing things. His power and abilities are not in question but his purpose is.

What mostly people do is imagine God as a being like silly senseless attention seeking kids.
Likewise they think God is like a bad mother who makes her kids lazy and crazy so that each time they need something they do not bother doing it themselves instead they run to their mother to do it for them. That is where they trap themselves.

[/quote]

Dear brother Mughal1

I'll be as direct as I need to be here ...

False - In the 'aqeedah of Ahl-us-Sunnah Wa Al-Jamah we do not advocate laziness. We have the "dawa and du'a" approach. We tie our camels and then trust in Allah. We lock our doors and then we read ayat Al-Kursi. We work and then we pray to Allah (SWT) for barakah.
However, our belief is that none of this is necessary - Allah (SWT) may protect us or nourish us in any way, we perform acts of "asbab" i.e. the worldly means not out of belief in the means, but out of adab ... This is the reason why Isa (AS) did not throw himself off the tower when tempted by the Shaitan ... not because he feared death, but because his adab to bring on the Divine Intervention was not in his character. We also recognise that despite doing things as per "asbab" they still may not manifest as expected. Since we do not believe in independent existence of anything other than Allah (SWT) we believe whatever we are or the universe contains is contingent and dependent on Allah (SWT) all the time. Hence, a knife
only cuts because Allah (SWT) enables the verb to manifest - the knife does not contain inherency independent from Allah's Divine Will - which is manifest all the time.

[quote]

Allah as I understand the quran is a very different being. To try to understand this being we need to stand back and imagine things in a different way.

We are told in the quran that Allah is alpha and omega ie ever living and self sustaining intelligent being. The question is what do living and lively intelligent beings do? They have urge to express themselves. How do they express themselves? Through doing something to show they are alive and intelligent. In case of Allah the acts of his creation and revelation give clues to his being lively and intelligent. It is fine that Allah expresses himself but what use is that expression which goes unappreciated?

[/quote]

This is a dangerous line to take. We do not even pretend to know about Allah (SWT) other than what He Himself has revealed to us about Himself. It is my strong iman that Allah (SWT) neither needed to create Creation nor was Creation something that fulfilled Allah (SWT). I believe He is the Lord with or without His creation and He is the Creator with or without His creation. To infer that any of His Attributes become manifest upon the Act then you are alleging that He is a changing form. And we know that Allah (SWT) is One - Immutable and Unchanging. This is core and fundamental 'aqeedah here.

I hope others are taking note as well, because in this day and age we need to be extra vigilant with these ideas.

Rationale is taking you to a dark path Allah (SWT) has no need to be appeciated - to be appreciated is a weakness and all weaknesses are far from Him. Allah (SWT) may in manner of speaking Desire to be known, but that Desire is neither a need nor manifest by any rational pre-requisite and it is unlike any desire of creation - or else we are saying that Allah (SWT) is confined by logic and rationale and has needs but that limits Him in His Grace and Majesty, so we cannot draw such conclusions.

[quote]

Had Allah not created anything it would not have mattered he existed or not and had Allah not created something to appreciate him again it would
not have mattered whether Allah existed or not.

[/quote]

This is again false - Allah (SWT) Exists - and had He not created anything then He is enough for Himself to matter, because the Greatest Presence is His and the Greatest Appreciation of Him is from Himself. He is needless of all things.

[quote]

It is precisely because Allah was lively and intelligent he had the urge to express himself and it was necessary that he created something in such a way that it showed he was intelligent so that his intelligence is appreciated. Had Allah created a fully programmed robot like creature then
that creature could not truly appreciate him. Also had Allah created a creature that was not intelligent enough to make sense of things all by himself it would again not be able to appreciate Allah's existence and his works. This is why a creature was necessary that was nether fully programmed not totally unable to learn. This creature is human being. A human being is a self programming robot with independent mind and ability to learn.

[/quote]

This is again false - No where do we see in scripture this to be purpose of man. Most of this is answered before. But you are putting restraints on Allah (SWT) and utilising no restraints on the extent your ego-centric rationale is taking you. Nothing is necessary on Allah (SWT) except what He Himself has made necessary on Himself and what He Himself has made necessary on Himself only He Knows and where revealed in scripture. For example He has made it necessary on Himself that His Mercy shall Outsrip His Wrath. The purpose for humanity can be gleaned from scripture. Our learning ability is not the purpose but a consequence of our purpose, We are the viceregents of Allah (SWT) on the Earth. We need to practice humility, mercy, forgiveness and struggle. These things elevate us ... Our returning to Him is His demonstration that He is Most Merciful, without necessitation.

As well as learning we are also a forgeting people - in fact our name - Insan comes from the root - to forget - So our purpose must be linked to our etymological name as well. Yes, we are made to forget amongst other things - contrary to your black and white explanation. Allah (SWT) Created us out of Love above all things.

[quote]

However to learn man needed stimulation ie something to tickle his intelligence into action. So man is not just given brain but senses to go with it as well. Not only that but a precise body mechanism to go with his brain and senses.

So man is born knowing nothing and begins to learn by looking at other things which Allah has created fully programmed and almost fully programmed e.g. non-living things and living things other than man. As a baby looks at things his brain gets signals and starts processing information it receive through senses. As time passes the collection of experiences increases. Man becomes self aware and aware of universal realities as much as he makes efforts to make
sense of them. Once a man becomes highly learned he starts questioning things as to their origin, purpose and how things fulfil their purposes.

This is the stage whereat man starts looking for answers for his questions because he realises he cannot go beyond that stage all by himself. This is when revelation of Allah plays its part to guide man a little. If we read the quran, it is therefore full of verses telling man to observe things
in the universe and see if it makes sense exactly as explained by Allah in his revelation. Not only that but also that by observing universal realities man ought to copy them and then become skilled in doing things himself. What is the point in this exercise? So that by becoming a creative being man could appreciate intelligence and creativity of Allah. Thus man meets the purpose of his creation by his creator.

[/quote]

The "asbab" of this world are as much a fitnah as they are mode of learning ... We are required to make use of them, but we are also required never to put our trust in them, but rather in Allah (SWT). This is a difficult position to keep. There are people who do not trust the asbab, but don't make use of them then there are people who trust the asbab and make use of them, but the position of the believer is to trust only Allah (SWT) and still make use of the asbab ... This is how the friends of Allah (SWT) have managed to gain His favour. And this belief is cogent and compatible with the idea of miracles.

And miracles have happened throughout history and yet you are ignoring them and refuting their validity or truth.

[quote]

The idea of Allah being all powerful and he can do this and that is all mullahs' nonsense. Why? Because no matter what kind of being you are you only do things purposefully not haphazardly like a kid plays with his toys. Before Allah created things he had to decide and precisely program things for functioning in such a way that they fulfilled his purpose of creating things.

So Allah had to control and direct his power of creativity. You do not get a building build by throwing about bricks randomly all over the place. There has to be a decision what you want to do and plan for it and make sure the plan has no mistakes. After all creation of universe is a huge project even for God because that is the best he could come up with. God is unlimited in existence but not in every sense because whatever he does he limited himself to that project by his own choice. All other possibilities no longer remain there as God himself makes choices about things.

For example Allah chose to create this world so now he lost the choice of not to create this world because he has already created it. Although God is beyond time in his existence but he is bound by events he himself causes one after the other.

[/quote]

Again your rationale is not coming to your aid ... So the reason why you reject miracle as per the section above is that Allah (SWT) does not do anything haphazardly ... I accept that ... so what is haphazard about protecting Ibrahim (AS) from a blazing fire? What is haphazard about Isa (AS) being born without father? And the way you speak about Allah (SWT) is wrong ... the correct way to say it is not "Before Allah created things he had to decide and precisely program things for functioning ..." but rather, "Before Allah (SWT) brought into creation He was already Aware of the purpose of them and had a plan for their functioning without having to deliberate over the plan for them" ... Creation is not a huge project ... Allah (SWT) created in stages through His
Wisdom and had He Chose to do so He could have made the Universe appear in full glory from nothing. Just as He Prepares every new moment and Destroys the previous moment constantly - He is Sustaining this Universe in a continuum of Creative and Destructive Acts ... which demonstrates that the Hellenstic idea of Allah (SWT) residing and limited to time is not compatible with our concept of Allah (SWT).

[quote]

This is why his sifaate afaaliya= capabilities for doing things are permanent but his afaal=actions are haadas=non-permanent. When it comes to defining time, it is define as per context of definition eg we have time definition for daily time eg 24 hours a day. The time as defined due to big-bang which only moves forward from the time it went bang. Likewise there was time before the creation of the world which is God's own time in which he acts. In short there is no single fit all definition of time.

All this should show that God of religion is not God of the quran, the quranic God is defined by quran itself. God of religions is God of philosophers and God of quran is God as per his own revelations or revealed scriptures. There is a god as imagine by people and there is a god explained by his own revealed scriptures.

[/quote]

And herein is the biggest irony ... It is you who have been arguing for rationale - philosophy and I have been arguing for revealed scriptures all the time
yet you spring this sophistical switch in your favour.

[quote]

Coming to man and his world and divine guidance, the purpose of divine revelation is to act as stimulus for mankind so that man keeps going in the right direction because if mankind go off the track then purpose of Allah could never come to fruition. So man is given guidance but if he fails to follow it then there is correction mechanism in operation. The set-up systems and laws ensure that man works within given range of spectrum or if you like freedom.

The questions you have raised need a lot of explaining which I can only offer on basis of as and when I have the time. Even this much explanation will tell you how different is my understanding of the quran from your understanding of it. This is why the quran tells us man is best creation of Allah because he has given man the most powerful, brain, senses and body to go with it so that man is fit for fulfilling his purpose or his set goals for man. If man was not given the senses he is given or not the body he is given then could not have the ability to do things he was created to do.

Meanswhile regards and all the best.

[/quote]

As stated before - Our status is purely to do with our ability to take blame and responsibility for our sins, resist urges and seek forgiveness. It is less to do with intellengence. But intellegence stems from our ability to make free choices. I agree with your purpose of Divine Revelation, but the purpose is not limited to that as the Revelation itself clarifies.

The greatest proof is that hadith are filled to the brim of consistency with miraculous happenings, plus the previous scriptures and with the Qur'an there are contexts prevalent for miracle too and you at least believe in 2 miracles yourself ... It is absurd to infer that the hadith was so easy to manipulate that a concoction of miracle stories have found their way in to them ... Such a notion is pure "make-belief".

All the best to you too ... :)

Re: Miracles & Magic

http://www.paklinks.com/gs/religion-and-scripture/346235-jinn-stories-encounters-2.html

Peace dear psyah, the point in some of my posts is to draw attention of people to certain things that people should take into account when they try to make sense of things before discussing things. It is because explanations that lead to endless nonsese are false and based on make beliefs.

For proper understanding of islam, in my view there should be a detailed open discussion on quranic understanding of people in the ummah but for that one has to understand the quran oneself first and then explain it to others in a context that makes sense.

When each person discussing the quran has done that then it is time for comparing each understanding of the quran to the other and see how it compares ie how much is it identical and how much it is different.

For the time being people should try their best to understand the text of the quran. This is not possible unless people gain some knowledge on all aspects of things about which the quran talks and the concepts attached to the roots of the words used in the quran whereby it becomes possible to derive meanings of the text.

It involves a long drawn out process but a task well worth undertaking.

Individual things cannot be decided without this basic framework which muslim scholarship has ignored for long and perhaps on purpose. Because to keep ummah confused gives a huge advantage to those who are hell bent on using and abusing ummah in order to break down the ummah spirit for their own ends.

These people are rulers who try to rule others in the name of country, mullahs who try to rule people in the name of religion and money lenders who try to rule people in the name of economics. They all try to legitimise and secure their personal gains at the expense of rest of ummah and in wider sense rest of humanity. By confusing the ummah about the actual message of the quran they secure their own positions of power.

Once people read the quran in context of power struggle between rulers, mullahs, money lenders and their supporters on one side and rest of mankind on the other, they will come to realise that they have been taken for a ride in a big way. This is why all energy is spent by these harmful and destructive elements in humanity in trying to prove the quran is a religious holy book for a few rituals to please God.

The quran is actually a revelation of Allah to help people guide themselves along a way of life that helps them grow and prosper with dignity as a one proper human community or ummah or brotherhood.

The dominant people in form of rulers, mullahs and money lenders have divided humanity on basis of politics using political tricks and mechanisms, on basis of religions and sects using religious tricks and mechanisms and on the basis on economics using economic tricks and mechanisms.

This is why the fundamental divide between religion and secularism and the question of separation between religious affairs and state affairs.

This is why unless the quran is interpreted properly it cannot be understood and so long as that remains the case the rulers, the mullahs and the money lenders remain secure. This is why proper education that gives people critical ability to think and understand things is opposed tooth and nail by rulers, mullahs and money lenders. Any change is coming in the world is evolutionary change which drags people along due to increasing problems that humanity faces by way of bloody revolutions. If education was made priority then people would have become enabled to plan things ahead so there will not be as many problems in the world as there are.

It is because the quran is sent for helping mankind to plan ahead into the future to secure themselves by working on that plan. However, to ensure rulers, mullahs and money lenders remain in power they do not allow education for others than their own families and relatives. If anyone gains any access to education it is because rulers, mullahs and money lenders need people for furthering their own dreams and ambition and so it comes about as a by product of that process. It is like you open a shop for making money but you want to make more money so you open another shop and put someone in there to work for you. Now you make money but so does your worker without you actually wanting him to make money. You do not want him to make money because you rather pay him as less as you can that he will be willing to accept. Religion is also a big business held by mullahs. Just as there are big rulers and politicians and small rulers and politicians so there are big mullahs and small mullahs and likewise big money lenders and small money lenders, big businessmen and small businessmen.

All such ways of life adopted by mankind are anti quran because the quran is book of human brotherhood. In a good family that functions properly brothers do not rule each other like masters and slaves or kings and subjects by force, brothers do not ruler each other by deceiving each other like mullahs, brothers do not enslave each other by using money. If they do, family will fall apart. It is because mullahs have given legitimacy to kings and money lenders and they in turn have given legitimacy to mullahs, the ummah concept is dead and will remain dead till people wake up to tricks of these people and kick them where it really hurts.

This is why open discussions are absolutely necessary in the ummah to educate people out of all kind of nonsense that these people have invented and spread in the name of Allah. It is for this reason open discussions are not allowed in ummah because rulers, mullahs and money lenders will be defeated in no time. This is why more and more make beliefs are promoted day and night on main stream media to keep lid on the truth for as long as it is possible. Human suffering cannot be eliminated till this remains the situation because kingdom based on rule of law of Allah cannot come about because it is supposed to be brought about by people and people cannot bring it about till they read the quran and understand it properly because only then they will be able to plan things properly and execute the plan properly and an education based revolution could come about.

In my view it is very important for all people who claim to be mulsims to read the understanding of the quran by shia sects and sunni sects eg brelvies, deobandies, ahle hadith and then read about sir syed, iqbal, modoodi, parwez, etc. See if any of them has succeeded in explaining the message of the quran or how much of it.

This is something ummah must concentrate on otherwise as people become more and more confused the quran will become as irrelevant and useless for mankind as all other scriptures because when people do not see any use for something they leave it aside and move on. To keep quran relevant for mankind such people must rise who are able to interpret the quran properly.

Coming to the problem you are facing about understanding of the quran and islam, it is common in the ummah and people need to work themselves out of the problem at their own pace. It will help if you could start questioning your own beliefs and actions in light of real world realities and in light of quranic interpretation based on the same idea. So long as you hold on to your make beliefs irrespective of real world realities you will not find any real satisfaction deep inside yourself. It is because you know your reasons for which you hold certain belief do not add up. Unless you yourself feel troubled by what you believe and do there is nothing anyone can do to help you out of your situation. On the other hand if you yourself are a knowledgeable person then perhaps you are on the right foundation but everyone else has not yet reached to that level so you will have to give people time to arrive at that stage all by themselves in due course. It all depends on information you have in your mind and the sense it makes to you and whether it is correct or not.

My problem with people is not that they are ignorant because that is how we all begin our lives but that whether we get on with educating ourselves or not. So long as we try our best all is fine.

For me important thing is not discussion on details but the actual framework of quranic way of life. I hold the quran as book of God that sets people goals to achieve and the guidelines to achieve them by.

It is a program to an ultimate end hence the ultimate goal as well as auxiliary goals and rules and regulations to go with that objective.

Unless ummah has its framework worked out properly from the quran to begin with, there is no way any detail can be worked out no matter how hard we try.

Establishing Islam in the world is not the ultimate goal but the first main goal so that then people could work as a single human community towards ultimate goal, which is recognition of our creator and sustainer by way of travelling through the universe to see his creation and realise through vastness of his creation his greatness. We cannot unite nor travel through universe till we become creative ourselves. The hidden potential in form of abilities that has been placed in us by our creator is there for us to realise and actualise and what other way can we do that other than to be creative ourselves. It is our own creativity that will ultimately make us realise how great creator our creator is. If we human beings prove to be so clever and knowledgeable then how great will our creator and sustainer be?

However as we will try to unite, we will need to learn the quranic program ourselves and then inform others so that they come and join with us so that together we could carry out the mission assign for us by Allah. This is why we are told to make it our business to work for unity on ground of peace and harmony between mankind for purpose of making progress so that we could become prosperous as a united human community. This is why the quran wants us to be just, and compassionate when dealing with each other. Not only that it tells us to not to oppress and suppress each other or be unjust and cruel to each other. All this because by doing good to each other and by not doing bad to each other we can come together and stay together for greater purpose or goal. This is why islam is all about self regulation rather than ruling each other. Islam is a true democracy because the quran tells us to decide all community related matters through consultation with each other in light of the given quranic framework and realities facing ummah on the ground eg at local level, district level, provincial level as well as ummah level.

In short laws are made by ummah according to the provided guidelines of Allah. Likewise ummah is supposed to work out each and everything that it needs to do as a community and once it has worked out everything then it is ready to distribute responsibilities and rights for each and every person in the community as appropriate. What will all this do? It will turn ummah into a perfectly working machine of which each component works properly. What will that do? It will deliver the expected results ie it will deliver goods and services needed by individuals in the ummah at the points of need free of charge.

It is like you are handed over a list of things that you must do so that people who need goods or services that are your responsibilities to provide get them. Others will be doing exactly the same as per their responsibilities in order that you get goods and services which you need. This is the quranic concept of economics and rule ie each person is ruled by laws not by people. People only ensure that all are following the rule of law as stated in the quran and accepted by ummah as a community. In short in the quranic way of life it is the constitution that is supreme not any person be he a prophet of God. All people must live by same rule of law. This is proper quran based shariah or law of islam.

This is why ZAKAAH does not mean what mullahs tell us because islam is not a business for profit within ummah. As soon as you involve money based dealing with each other you are going to cause breakdown in ummah concept. This is what mullahs did when they got the chance after falling apart of the exemplary kingdom that was based on divine guidance that was established by the final messenger of Allah.

The proper worldwide divine kingdom is yet to be established but it will be established by people themselves not by any more prophet of any sort. It is because in the beginning Allah sent prophets for guidance of mankind because it was just the beginning of humanity so people needed a lot more help to find their way but once humanity has become aware of itself and bit aware more about its universe there is no need for any more divine messengers so all they need is message and that is there in form of the quran for them to consult. The quranic guidance is only needed for people if they wish to avoid waste of time and a lot of painful suffering ie learning and teaching proper way of life could fast track humanity to self regulated human community. Not going by the book will still lead humanity to the same end but after a lot of tough life experiences by beating the hell out of each other at every step of the way as we can see in the world. How will that lead them to right path? This idea is called keeping each other in check ie you slap me I punch you to teach you a lesson not to mess with me and next time you will not till you prepare better. I go and do same to someone else and get the same treatment. Because all people are doing this to each other so they are learning from this interaction and that is how we are moving little by little in the right direction. You can see how long this process is going to take to complete as opposed to learning and teaching method based upon divine guidance.

There are only three ways possible for mankind to live by. evolutionary process ie through brain and senses based life experiences passed down generations, revolutionary process ie by learning and teaching divine revelation and a bit of each. So it is up to people to decide how long they want to remain confused and carry on suffering due to ignoring the divine guidance. They can educate themselves quicker about how they should live and cut down the time and troubles they will otherwise face or carry on as they have been and suffer the consequences in future as well, as they have been suffering in the past. In that case they should not complain. It is like your parents are knowledgeable and tell you how you should live your life but you ignore their advice and go ahead with whatever is in your own mind and fall victim to all sorts of problems about which you are already forewarned then you just sit and curse your parents. This is what people are doing about God instead of seeing where they themselves have gone wrong.

Quranic way of life is simply put a way of life based upon idea of living for the good of each other as a proper human community. Which means a community self organised and self regulated for purpose of proper management of human population and provided resources as told by Allah and agreed upon by knowledge based ummah.

Any other way of life is anti quran which is based upon some people gaining personally at the expense of others. This way of life can never produce a proper human community. This is why there take place bloody revolts or uprisings that are mentioned in the quran.

regards and all the best.