Dont you think it was tough for non-believers back then, when messengers used to preach them, to differentiate between magic & miracles? … how can a normal human being , in those days when magic was in every corner, recognize what is miracle & what is magic? … if something happens in front of you, how can you say that its miracle & not magic … I mean thats tough …
Re: Miracles & Magic
^ I don't think miracles provide the primary basis for believing in the veracity of messengers of Allah. It is the conduct and behavior of the claimant of prophet-hood in his early life and the message he brought.
Re: Miracles & Magic
^ I don't think miracles provide the primary basis for believing in the veracity of messengers of Allah. It is the conduct and behavior of the claimant of prophet-hood in his early life and the message he brought.
then what you think was the point of those miracles?
Re: Miracles & Magic
This is how I see it, but I may not be able to articulate it well. Magic is when you create the illusion that something is impossible through ways that can be proven and explained/supported with evidence. For example, a magician pulls a rabbit out of a hat and outwardly it looks impossible to us. But it's just an illusion. The reality is that this illusion was created using different tools and it can be proven and demonstrated....and thus it allows for the possibility or chances for the illusion to take place. A miracle, on the other hand, has virtually no chance of taking place because of the obstacles or defiance of logic/reason/laws of nature.
Re: Miracles & Magic
^ I am not talking about that magic .... I am talking about real magic ..... magicians back then were not doing this rabbit waala magic .... they were not illusionists, they were real magicians ..... this rabbit waala magic is for entertainment purpose but on the other hand real magic & miracles are not ........
Hazrat Isa AS used make dead people alive ..... God gave him that power ..... we think it as a miracle but non-believers thought the other way around .... the thing is that would have been really difficult for them to differentiate between magic & miracle ....
& another thing is that when God gives you power to do something extraordinary then its miracle but when some other person is doing that then its magic ... how come?
what is the difference between magic & miracle? why magic is considered bad & miracle is not?
Re: Miracles & Magic
Difference between miracle and magic is … magic is something that does not follow natural laws, but performed using power granted by Allah to certain spells without permission of Allah … whereas Miracles is something that does not follow natural laws, but is performed using power given by Allah with permission of Allah (with or without using any spell).
Here is an example of Magic but could be trick. Something that amazed all as no answer is found yet (as far as I know) how it was done by ‘David Copperfield’. The performance was done on stage live, in front of huge audience, where Magician (David Copperfield) … who was suppose to free himself before saw cuts him into half, could not, and saw did cut him into half .. but he made the time go backward and came out in one piece.
Re: Miracles & Magic
Magic is the combination of the malpractice of certain psychological tools, science and trickery. When it is said that magic is real it is confined in the areas of psychology and science. Hypnotism is a real phenomenon, poisons can be used to create illnesses and biochemicals can induce emotional states. The use of Jinn in magic is only to the extent of placing this or that in a certain place, whispering in ears, or to make it seem the "power" is coming from the magician, but in fact it is just a normal physical force being applied by a Jinn who otherwise would not do that on every beckon or command of the "magician" but does so when a contract is in place.
The general idea given by redvelvet is true ... a miracle is a true breach in the laws of nature ... whereas magic is working well within the laws of nature and is hence reproducible and it is possible to learn it and practice it. Miracles cannot be practiced ...
Perhaps the biggest clue for people of the past to recognise miracle from magic is the claim of the person ... The miracle worker never took credit for the act and probably was similarly astonished as the rest of the people seeing the act.
Miracles occur only in times of great need and when the people it happens on at that time are immensely helpless. Also, they happen as a form of reproof and evidence. Miracles were always initiated by du'a ... That a prayer was made and then the miracle occurred - often at the bewilderment of the miracle worker ... they did not know what to expect. Like when Musa (AS) was commanded to extend his staff ... It was not Musa (AS) who told the sea to part ... He merely instigated the catalyst by extending his staff not knowing what to expect. Just like when Maryam (AS) did not know that Isa (AS) was going to speak, but she pointed to him as instructed by the angels who protected her.
The effects of magic are real ... such that magic can cause marriages to break apart - because it exploits the human weak spot and makes couples mistrust each other - the effect of the malpractice of psychological tools and pharmaceutics to induce paranoia is possible and reproducible. Miracles are not reproducible ... i.e. When Ibrahim (AS) did not burn in the blazing fire that was prepared for him it was not because he used ceramic gel ... Ceramic gel being a way to protect ourselves from fire - in this day and age ... but to say this is reproducible without that technology is a lie ... Hence what happened was not a casual use of some ceramic gel in a long forgotten time ... but it was a miracle the likes of which cannot be reproduced ever ... i.e. even in this day and age there is no way to avoid being burnt by fire without any protection covering our skin as was the case with Ibrahim (AS).
kchughtai also made an important point - that miracles came to support the message and messenger ... not the other way round ... Just as the miracle of the Qur'an states it is a guidance to people who are straight and looking to be guided but the same Qur'an is also a misguidance for those who desire to be misguided ... this is the same property in every miracle ... Every miracle can increase people in guidance or misguidance ... it depends on their own state of sincerity.
Prophecies are miracles too ... They are certain type of miracle ... Fortune Telling is to Prophecy that Magic is to Miracle ... Fortune Tellers use clues and predictive models to guess the outcome of events and to a certain extent influence outcome by what they say ... The human mind can form patterns in anything and hence falls into the trap of concluding a reality in such things ... These are merely mind play ... but many people swear by their star signs and regularly read up their horoscopes. It is because they accept the generality in what it being said and take it to be specific through sophistry of the one telling them those things. A prophecy however is precise and when it happens it is a big event clear and defined and not vague or misleading.
It is for this reason that we must understand prophesy and miracle in their true contexts ... they are firstly and foremostly to be taken literally or else we will hinder our belief system and will be incapable of differentiating between the truth and falsehood - that of miracle or magic.
So magic is true and magic is false ... it is true in that its has side-effects that do affect us and it is false because it claims to be from a source that is not doing it.
And Allah (SWT) Knows Best
Re: Miracles & Magic
Magic is nothing other than mental or physical tricks played by some on others. It is same as adults play tricks on children. It works exactly the same way ie adults make children think something has been made to happen as if by outside laws of nature. These tricks children begin to discover as they grow and they no longer are impressed by them. Same with people that clever people play tricks on simple minded people but as simple minded people grow out of them they no longer have any affect on them. This is why magic shows seem very interesting for children but as they come to know how magicians do their tricks they are no longer there to see magic shows.
Magic is a big thing in religious minded people because religious people are mainly simple minded and uneducated so they are controlled by mullahs through make beliefs which they spread in society to control people for their personal gains. These ignorant mullahs do not realise the damage they are creating in human society.
Mullahs twist divine scriptures to try to prove to people what is not in the scriptures because general public is unaware of what the scriptures actually say. Not only that but children are brought up believing that religious people are good people so they do not say or do wrong things. All this plays part in how people look at things until such people are educated out of all this nonsense.
If you are brought up to believe magic can affect you then whenever anything goes wrong in your life you will right away run to mr magic man for solution of the problem being unable to think the solution for yourself. So clever people than oneself can get their living from that and that is why news papers are full of adverts by baabas looking for victims to prey upon.
Magic concept was invented by mullahs not magicians to fool and confuse public so that they could take them away from deen of Allah. Mullahs were given this task by those people who wanted to rule other human beings ie kings and emperors.
It is mystery of trick played that makes magic magic. It is input>(function or process or trick mechanism or technique)>output. The part kept secret holds the mystery. Once that is discovered it no longer appeals as magic trick because the mystery that makes magic magic is no longer there.
Re: Miracles & Magic
Peace Mughal1 ... Thanks for that ... Perhaps you might now try to answer the question in the vein of what you have written above.
Re: Miracles & Magic
Like magic, concept of miracles is also invented by mullahs and it is invented for the very same reasons as magic. It has nothing at all to do with divine scriptures or messengers.
Deen never needed any miracles for its proof because deen is based upon proof. It is because mullahs have taken us away from deen into mazhab that we no longer even know what is meant by work proof.
If anyone is in doubt please ask any mazhabi mullah what is proof, you will see he has no clue. In fact ask a scientist what is proof and he too will hardly be able to clearly define what is proof. When scientists argue with you about God or scripture they ask you for proof yet most of them never thought about what the proof actually is.
Humanity has yet a very long way to go before it comes to realise some basic facts. All this because masses lack self awareness as well as awareness of universal realities so to know about God is yet a distance dream as far as they are concerned.
If we study the quran with care, we will see that all divine messengers denied they could do anything magical called miracles. However the most important question is why were they asked for miracles in the first place? Now try and answer this question by yourself. Could it be that masses were put up to this by their religious leaders? Ask now, why will their religious leader put them up to this? So that they do not lose them to message of divine messengers.
How could belief in miracles prevent people from believing in true message of Allah?
The trick is simple, you teach people that man of God is man of God so he can do things no other man can do because he is sent with supernatural powers. Where is the trick in this? The trick is you are portraying a person that does not exist, so people will look for that kind of man who can do magic and since that person cannot exist therefore things stay the way inventors of this trick want ie masses remain slaves of their mullahs and kings.
The same make beliefs are invented and promoted about saints and we can see how grave worship is widespread. All these things are works of ignorant people to take each other away from actual message of the quran. This message is proof but ask any so called holy man what is proof and you will not get the answer. It is because these people never study the book as it ought to be studied. Instead they promote nonsense in the name of Allah. This is why they do not know how to educate each other and promote ignorance instead of information and way to make sense of it properly.
Re: Miracles & Magic
I think there is Magic spells present in this world, and to deny magic is denying Quran as well as hadith and knowledge that most humans have (from experience or from words of mouth).
Apart of ayah where Allah mentions that two angels were teaching magic, there is another ayah that talks about magic. That is: Surah Falaq.
Other than magic, Quran also talks about some kind of ‘knowledge from the book’ that have miraculous power, just like magic (though believers call such acts as Karamat and not magic, it can be considered magic by onlookers). For instance, a human in the court of Sulaiman (AS) who had such ‘knowledge from the book’ used that knowledge to bring throne of Queen Bilquis in front of Sulaiman (AS) as fast as blinking of eye (Surah 27:40).
Quran on Magic: Surah 113 Ayah 4:
Sahih International: And from the evil of the blowers in knots
Muhsin Khan: "And from the evil of the witchcrafts when they blow in the knots,
Pickthall: And from the evil of malignant witchcraft,
Yusuf Ali: From the mischief of those who practise secret arts;
Shakir: And from the evil of those who blow on knots,
Dr. Ghali: And from the evil of the women who spit on the knots, (i.e., perform malignant witchcraft).
Evidence of karamat (can be considered as magic by ignorants) is present in Quran, that people close to Allah can perform using book of Allah (Quran or past books) or power given to them by Allah, and it is called Miracles or Moajza (in Islam).
Quran 27:40 … Said one who had knowledge of the Book: “I will bring it to thee within the twinkling of an eye!” Then when (Solomon) saw it placed firmly before him, he said: “This is by the Grace of my Lord!- to test me whether I am grateful or ungrateful! and if any is grateful, truly his gratitude is (a gain) for his own soul; but if any is ungrateful, truly my Lord is Free of all Needs, Supreme in Honour !”
Hadith … quite a few hadith is there in Bukhari. One I am given below.
Narrated ‘Aisha: A man called Labid bin al-A’sam from the tribe of Bani Zaraiq worked magic on Allah’s Apostle till Allah’s Apostle started imagining that he had done a thing that he had not really done. One day or one night he was with us, he invoked Allah and invoked for a long period, and then said, "O ‘Aisha! Do you know that Allah has instructed me concerning the matter I have asked him about? Two men came to me and one of them sat near my head and the other near my feet. One of them said to his companion, “What is the disease of this man?” The other replied, "He is under the effect of magic.’ The first one asked, ‘Who has worked the magic on him?’ The other replied, "Labid bin Al-A’sam.’ The first one asked, ‘What material did he use?’ The other replied, ‘A comb and the hairs stuck to it and the skin of pollen of a male date palm.’ The first one asked, ‘Where is that?’ The other replied, ‘(That is) in the well of Dharwan;’ " So Allah’s Apostle along with some of his companions went there and came back saying, “O 'Aisha, the color of its water is like the infusion of Henna leaves. The tops of the date-palm trees near it are like the heads of the devils.” I asked. “O Allah’s Apostle? Why did you not show it (to the people)?” He said, “Since Allah cured me, I disliked to let evil spread among the people.” Then he ordered that the well be filled up with earth. (Book #71](71. Medicine - Sahih Al-Bukhari - 0 - 658), Hadith #658](71. Medicine - Sahih Al-Bukhari - 0 - 658))
Mutafiqa hadith in Muslim and Bukhari on magic:
Sahi Bukhari: Narrated Sad: Allah’s Apostle said, “He who eats seven 'Ajwa dates every morning, will not be affected by poison or magic on the day he eats them.” (Book #65](65. Food, Meals - Sahih Al-Bukhari - 0 - 356), Hadith #356](65. Food, Meals - Sahih Al-Bukhari - 0 - 356))
Sahi Muslim: 'Amir b. Sa’d b. Abu Waqqas reported Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who ate seven ‘ajwa’ dates in the morning, poison and magic will not harm him on that day. (Book #023](23. The Book of Drinks (Kitab Al-Ashriba) - Sahih Muslim - 0 - 5081), Hadith#5081](23. The Book of Drinks (Kitab Al-Ashriba) - Sahih Muslim - 0 - 5081))
Above hadith (mentioned in both Bukhari and Muslim) shows that magic is not only different then poison but it is as potent as poison.
Re: Miracles & Magic
..
Re: Miracles & Magic
^^^ So, if in Quran it is mentioned that people should ask refuge of Allah from those who blow on knots, you would say that since you can also blow on knot (of your shoelace), it is you who is mentioned? :)
Feminine gender is used as default because it is mostly female who get involved in magic practices. That does not mean men are not involved. It is just like, when talking about army, one use masculine gender, that does not mean female cannot be in army.
Re: Miracles & Magic
Like magic, concept of miracles is also invented by mullahs and it is invented for the very same reasons as magic. It has nothing at all to do with divine scriptures or messengers.
Deen never needed any miracles for its proof because deen is based upon proof. It is because mullahs have taken us away from deen into mazhab that we no longer even know what is meant by work proof.
If anyone is in doubt please ask any mazhabi mullah what is proof, you will see he has no clue. In fact ask a scientist what is proof and he too will hardly be able to clearly define what is proof. When scientists argue with you about God or scripture they ask you for proof yet most of them never thought about what the proof actually is.
Humanity has yet a very long way to go before it comes to realise some basic facts. All this because masses lack self awareness as well as awareness of universal realities so to know about God is yet a distance dream as far as they are concerned.
If we study the quran with care, we will see that all divine messengers denied they could do anything magical called miracles. However the most important question is why were they asked for miracles in the first place? Now try and answer this question by yourself. Could it be that masses were put up to this by their religious leaders? Ask now, why will their religious leader put them up to this? So that they do not lose them to message of divine messengers.
How could belief in miracles prevent people from believing in true message of Allah?
The trick is simple, you teach people that man of God is man of God so he can do things no other man can do because he is sent with supernatural powers. Where is the trick in this? The trick is you are portraying a person that does not exist, so people will look for that kind of man who can do magic and since that person cannot exist therefore things stay the way inventors of this trick want ie masses remain slaves of their mullahs and kings.
The same make beliefs are invented and promoted about saints and we can see how grave worship is widespread. All these things are works of ignorant people to take each other away from actual message of the quran. This message is proof but ask any so called holy man what is proof and you will not get the answer. It is because these people never study the book as it ought to be studied. Instead they promote nonsense in the name of Allah. This is why they do not know how to educate each other and promote ignorance instead of information and way to make sense of it properly.
This is the clearest deviation to the core Islamic beliefs that you are showing here Mughal1 ... and a huge accusation unfounded against our ulema.
Re: Miracles & Magic
pretty sure this is false.
Re: Miracles & Magic
^^^Since I was not present when this hadith was said, I would not argue with you. I can only say that both Bukhari and Muslim considered this hadith to be true enough to include it in their hadith books. I do not have any reason to doubt the hadith, as it does not contradict Quran, logic, rationality or sense, so I can just raise my hands up and say that as far as I am concerned, this hadith is attributed to Prophet (SAW), and that could be true.
This date is cultivated in Madina. There are various hadith in different books of hadith regarding the powers associated with Ajwa dates. I have heard many miraculous stories associated with Ajwa dates, with claims that this date has power to heal many incurable diseases, and many childless couples became parents after eating this date and whatnot.
Re: Miracles & Magic
you can buy ajwa dates all over. would you be willing to eat 5 ajwa dates and lick a cyanide pill? yes? no?
Re: Miracles & Magic
:halo:… You want me to do suicide?
Well, one principle of getting any benefit from things that have some mysterious powers is belief, that Allah has given in them mysterious miraculous powers. If there is no belief than there is no benefit, as result comes due to will of Allah. Actually, whatever happens depend on part belief and part effects. There is no benefits if one want to test them to see their effectiveness. With other medicines also, results come due to will of Allah, but in them, Allah has given inherent curing powers.
As far as I am concerned, I would only go for such miraculous medicines if I have no other options and this option is available.
Re: Miracles & Magic
you can buy ajwa dates all over. would you be willing to eat 5 ajwa dates and lick a cyanide pill? yes? no?
NOPE! And you know why? Because that's a fazool argument. One who truly wants to commit suicide won't bother much with any safety or preventative measures like ajwa dates, or even a pitcher if water to dilute the cyanide, etc etc. People who eat ajwa dates do so because of it's health benefits and spiritual protection, so that means they actually respect and value their life and won't deliberately toy or disrespect the gift of life by engaging in such silly challenges.
Re: Miracles & Magic
really?
so you don’t want medicines that are tested? just faith-healing?
if ajwa dates were able to fight poison, it could easily benefit millions of people daily. but you see no benefits of testing its effectiveness? funny. 