Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
You wanted evidence. I am ready to provide it. I have merely asked you to provide me with a list of sources which I can link from.
So far you have avoided doing so.
Quick question if the source quotes a Pakistani media source or a Pakistani military official is that still “credible”? 
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
where is the evidence i was promised 
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
Where is the evidence I was promised?
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
Where is the evidence I was promised?
That is what I am ready to provide. Yet you refuse to give me any method by which to do so.
List the credible sources and I will prove that civilians die in Drone attacks.
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
You have to show me that CIVILIAN DEATHS WERE INTENTIONAL! I will accept any source, that shows me that civlians were killed with malicious intent… The word INTENT is emphasized… Please.
My evidence you dont like, but sadly, any evidence that doesn’t support your narrative is invalid. Now go ahead.
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
That is what I am ready to provide. Yet you refuse to give me any method by which to do so.
List the credible sources and I will prove that civilians die in Drone attacks.
How much intellegence does it take to figure which is a credible source? Most normal people would consider CNN, LA times, USMA as credible sources. You apparently dont. So I dont really know what is credible to you... Perhaps Wikipedia?
I will make it simple for you. Show me that the US is INTENTIONALLY targeting civilians, not that casualties occur, but that those civilian casualties were the original target. We all know civilians have died in these strikes, even the sources you consider propaganda report such casualties, but that is not what you and others have claimed. You believe those strikes were intentional. If your evidence does not show this, then consider yourself having failed.
A credible source in this case, would be something from the US openly stating that the drones are intended to attack civilians. That killing civilians is a stated goal.
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
What you think you see is not always reality. Who is blowing up this schools? Where is the evidence in support of these schools blown up by Americans? You make extraordinary claims without any evidence.** Atleast I showed you some evidence, whether you believe it or not**. Why should I believe you? You yourself claim no one is in KP to confirm this stuff, and yet here you are claiming Americans are blowing up schools! Last I checked it was the Taliban who were blowing up schools. Infact, this entire thread is on TALIBAN BRUTALITY!
Now innocents do suffer in all conflicts, and yes you are being Naive. This isnt a convenient answer, its acknowledgment of ground realities. The war is happening whether you like it or not.** And quite frankly, as evidence shows,** the drones do a much better job of minimizing destruction and death then other tactics would. .
where is the evidence?? that you gave??
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
where is the evidence?? that you gave??
Go back to the previous page. The problem is you people dont accept that evidence as being credible.
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
Go back to the previous page. The problem is you people dont accept that evidence as being credible.
ohh......you meant links to LA times ?? That is the 'evidence'???
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
LOL… No, no, no, the LA times cant be considered credible. NO, lets believe Zaid Hamid, and all the illustrious Urdu news papers floating about. 
Seriously man. Where do you get your news from, gossiping aunties in your area? The guy who cuts your hair? Your kids and their friends?
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
Ah so the military general is an okay source of information as long as he is not quoted by Pakistani media. Got it. The validity of the statement does not matter to you. Who posts it does.
If you are Sherlock your watson must suffer from down's syndrome.
Pakistani media wouldnt quote him. It wouldnt fit their propaganda. But I certainly wish they would. Still, doesnt mean his statement was inaccurate if its US media is quoting him.
This is the same media by the way that will hurl all sorts of accusation against america, but will allow air time to terrorists who then go on to give speeches on live television... Remember how they portrayed Salman Taseers murderer as a hero? Indeed very credible and unbiased.
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
aren't Talibans & Mujahideen (%%%%%%) are the saviors of Islam... ?
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
You have to show me that CIVILIAN DEATHS WERE INTENTIONAL! I will accept any source, that shows me that civlians were killed with malicious intent... The word INTENT is emphasized... Please.
My evidence you dont like, but sadly, any evidence that doesn't support your narrative is invalid. Now go ahead.
Great. You can access Taliban websites in the US right. They show that they were intentional.
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
Enjoying this intellectual interchange between CM and Med911.
It would make a great TV talk show - face to face (if they don't come to blows, that is). Maybe the internet wall in between is better.
It is starting to drag a little bit though.
But carry on boys. We'll keep checking from time to time to see if there is any resolution to this argument.
Truth, as they say, is the first casualty of war.
And truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.
Other thought:
Debating whether there is intent or not is fine for discussion.
Intent does matter to some extent for context but it does not matter to the civilians killed or their next of kin.
(And by the way, "collateral damage" is an obscene term when applied to loss of human life.)
Some questions:
Isn't war large-scale terrorism in itself ?
Doesn't fighting terror with terror breed more terror ?
Where, when and how does the cycle end ?
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
Med:
Your sources are absolute garbage because they are framed by their biases, promoting a specific agenda. In many cases, these “sources” have not even stepped in KP much less FATA.
I am neither claiming nor implying what the Americans intend to do, I am talking about what they have DONE. I am not some armchair quarterback “Analyst” sitting in the US of A, reading biased articles and drawing conclusions, like that nonsense West Point assessment that you posted. I am FROM the region, I have attended the namaz e janaza of little school children, I KNOW names of men and women who have perished in the drone attacks. I have seen the drones flying above with my very own eyes. So don’t write paragraphs to me about how the US is trying to minimize casualties. They see us nothing more than ragheads that are better off dead – I’m sorry to see other Pakistanis falling under the same twisted perspective.
I don’t support the Taliban, but when it comes to terror, the US has become an efficient killing machine.
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
^correction.....'not become'......'has always been' :)
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
Ironically we are approaching the 66th anniversaries of the dropping of atomic bombs (code-named “Little Boy” and “Fat Man”) on Japan in 1945.
6th August, 1945 - 166,000 Japanese civilians perished in Heroshima (that day and in following days).
9th August, 1945 - 70,000 in Nagasaki.
Drone attacks can be considered little needle-pricks by comparison by some.
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
^correction.....'not become'......'has always been' :)
Good point Nomi.
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
So let me get this straight...Western forces have every right to say "oops" if they mistakenly target some poor sap, and kill all his 8 year old children...but this gangster (was it taliban?) is somehow different because it was deliberate. The only major difference was the factor of a screw up. At the end of the day, some poor soul is left one child less...so it's of no comfort to victims that they were infact not the intended targets...indeed, were somehow being "protected' by those who committed the atrocity.
The difference is nominal. One is an a-hole, and brash about it. The other is an a-hole, and apologetic about it. Not the point. Just ask the victims.
Re: Militants hang 8-year-old boy in southern Afghanistan
Enjoying this intellectual interchange between CM and Med911. It would make a great TV talk show - face to face (if they don't come to blows, that is). Maybe the internet wall in between is better.
It is starting to drag a little bit though.
But carry on boys. We'll keep checking from time to time to see if there is any resolution to this argument.
Truth, as they say, is the first casualty of war. And truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.
Other thought: Debating whether there is intent or not is fine for discussion. Intent does matter to some extent for context but it does not matter to the civilians killed or their next of kin. (And by the way, "collateral damage" is an obscene term when applied to loss of human life.)
Some questions: Isn't war large-scale terrorism in itself ? Doesn't fighting terror with terror breed more terror ? Where, when and how does the cycle end ?
Tanvir saab. Ofcourse Colateral damage is meaningless to those killed. But such is the nature of war.
The best solution to all this would be for there to never again be war. But we dont live in such and idealist world. In this world, wars happen, and sometimes, they must happen. To say otherwise is to be naive.
There are times when gross injustice must be met with justice. There are times when one must fight to defend oneself. and Islam itself teaches us as much. We must avoid war where ever possible, but we shouldnt shirk our responsibility in fighting for justice.
People are lambasting me for putting things in starkly real terms. It is a cold calculation, but this is life. Its a reality that must be accepted.
My argument is quite simple. This war is a war that must be fought. Lets fight the war with as few casualties as possible. The drones are the means to such an ends.
Many Pakistanis dont like the drones, and frankly I dont either. But they are a necessary evil. Lets get beyond our hang ups and come to grips with the situation.