[Merged]Rotten Judgment in the State of Denmark says Danish Professor

[Silly_Billy]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

Oh and don't think we haven't noticed how certain members have avoided the point of the thread.

Pathetic!

[Seminole]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

@xguru

Never claimed that Muslim majority countries today are the bastion of freedom and rule of law.

It DOES NOT MATTER what they claim - reality is reality. If you don't practice tolerance, don't expect it. And please don't bring up past actions that have nothing to do with this. They are as relevant to this thread as is the genocide of 1971

[quote]
I have stated before and will state again, I am against violent responses to such things. Protest is one thing but violence is never justified. Now, European countries following Denmarks lead after it was well known that these cartoons have insulted and angered the Islamic world and that these cartoons have nothing to do with freedom of speech and everything to do with hate speech, I would say their reaction has been "3rd world" as well.
[/quote]
The west is insulted and angrered when Islamists blow up innocents. Does that make it stop? While peaceful protest is allowed and even encouraged in free socieities, it doesn't mean that what you are protesting is going to be stopped. Unless it is deemed against the law or the parties give in. It appears neither has happened. I thnk we have a different interpretation of 3rd world - peaceful freedom of expression IMO doesn't fall under it. Violent, angry protests do.

[quote]
See answer to number 2. We are not talking about just the editor's now. The societies of these nations share some blame too. The weak responses by the leaders of Denmark are proof. As you know these leaders are democratically elected and hence speak for their people.
[/quote]
You mean kind of like the weak responses from Muslims when suicide bombers invoke his teachings when killing innocents?

[Silly_Billy]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

Open a new thread on jews killing palestinians or whatever you're taking about, stick to the thread title.

[xguru]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

@NameInUse

So what you want then is for the western world to emulate the Islamic world. Become less tolerant of views and restrict the freedom of the press, particularly Muslim views.

Dude, did you read my post. When did I say emulate the Islamic world? BTW, these are your definitions of the Islamic world, not mine.

Muslims, with their over reaction and selective outrage, have managed to turn this otherwise non-issue into a battle over freedoms and rights. The more the Muslims react, the more the depiction of the cartoons become true. Danish paper publishes cartoons, Muslims burn buildings in Lebanon, take captives in Gaza, burn embassies in Syria. Iran now decides to publish anti Jewish cartoons. Why would people think that Muslims are extremists?

Once again too blind to what is actually going on or just reading what you want to read. These cartoons were published 3 months ago. Protests were made but no aplogy was made. Then the cartoons started making their rounds in European papers to put more fuel to the fire. Who tried to make this worse first? Don’t spin this, there is no way you can spin this…

So because Muslim governments and societies have a “weak response” to Islamic terrorism, all Muslims must take their share of the blame…In that caes, this is exactly what the cartoon depicts…why the duplicity then?

Ok dude a little education for you. European countries have elected governments. When the leader of a country says something he/she speaks for the people. Most Islamic countries have kingdoms or dictators. They do not represent the people. In any case, all Muslim democratic countries have condemned terrorism and even the not so kosher ones have done the same. The Osama’s of the world do not represent the views of any Islamic country or even Islam itself. Just stick to the topic already…

[Seminole]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

@Silly Billy

Open a new thread on jews killing palestinians or whatever you're taking about, stick to the thread title.

Oh, on topic like the anti-Jewish cartoon you post in every thread?

You want to think that none of this is related. But it is very related.

Here is the question of the day that no one seems to know the answer to...

Why did someone draw this cartoon? From where did they draw their inspiration?

[Silly_Billy]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

ermm the holocaust myth?

[Seminole]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

Yeah, go ahead and keep your eyes closed.

[ak47]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

The clear hypocrisy in this case is still defended by Racists why am i not surprised!

[legbreakgoogly]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

The alleged holocaust always gets a laugh out of me.

[xguru]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

@Seminole

It DOES NOT MATTER what they claim - reality is reality. If you don’t practice tolerance, don’t expect it. And please don’t bring up past actions that have nothing to do with this. They are as relevant to this thread as is the genocide of 1971

Don’t lecture me on tolerance. People are people around the world. White people in the west tolerate others just as much a Sunni toleartes a Shia or Christian in Pakistan. Using your own crazy logic every black and American Indian then should be justified killing whites in the U.S. What past? Most of the stuff I mentioned happened in the last century. Your grandparents and perhaps even your parents were alive and witness to it. Heck it is going on even today. The past has everything to do what happens today and tomorrow. Genocide of 1971? Are you kidding me?

The west is insulted and angrered when Islamists blow up innocents. Does that make it stop? While peaceful protest is allowed and even encouraged in free socieities, it doesn’t mean that what you are protesting is going to be stopped. Unless it is deemed against the law or the parties give in. It appears neither has happened. I thnk we have a different interpretation of 3rd world - peaceful freedom of expression IMO doesn’t fall under it. Violent, angry protests do.

You have no idea what you are saying here. Like violent and angry protests don’t happen in the west. They happen and happen a lot. BTW, Muslims are insulted and angered when innocents are blown up too. We express that anger just like everyone else does. You just ignore it.

You mean kind of like the weak responses from Muslims when suicide bombers invoke his teachings when killing innocents?

Show me a post from any democratic Muslim government that has praised the actions of suicide bombers?

[Seminole]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

@ak47

The clear hypocrisy in this case is still defended by Racists why am i not surprised!

You mean the ones who can’t condemn those who kill innocents in the name of the prophet but will burn and kill when a cartoon makes a caricature out of that very circumstance? I agree hypocrisy. And idolization in the worst form. You can kill in his name, just don’t draw his picture, because that will disrespect him.

[NameInUse]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

@xguru

Dude, did you read my post. When did I say emulate the Islamic world? BTW, these are your definitions of the Islamic world, not mine.

These are not my definitions, these, along with most of the world, are my observations of the Islamic world. I don't care what Islam is or what the definition of Islam is. To me it is another aribitrary religion. I have no idea what Islam's religious text(s) say. All I know is that Muslims through out the world act in a manner that is contrary to estabalishments of freedom and tolerance in civilized societies.
You said "Never claimed that Muslim majority countries today are the bastion of freedom and rule of law. You want the "West" to act in a manner where freedom of press, speech, and expression are trumped by the religious sentiments of Muslims and forced on people who do not believe in the devinity of it's religious personalities. In other words, the "West" considers these freedoms as sacred ads you consider your prophet. If you do not like these freedoms and do not want them allowed, then what you want is, by your own words, a society like the present Islamic ones.

@xguru

Once again too blind to what is actually going on or just reading what you want to read. These cartoons were published 3 months ago. Protests were made but no aplogy was made. Then the cartoons started making their rounds in European papers to put more fuel to the fire. Who tried to make this worse first? Don't spin this, there is no way you can spin this...

So let me get this straight. Because no apologies were made, by a government because it's newspapers were exercising their rights, people have the right to commit violent acts?
The cartoon were published in other newspapers last week when Muslims started to attack freedoms, which people in the west hold higher than religion.
So what you are saying is: Subjugate yourself to Islamic views or we'll turn violent.

@xguru

Ok dude a little education for you. European countries have elected governments. When the leader of a country says something he/she speaks for the people. Most Islamic countries have kingdoms or dictators. They do not represent the people. In any case, all Muslim democratic countries have condemned terrorism and even the not so kosher ones have done the same. The Osama's of the world do not represent the views of any Islamic country or even Islam itself. Just stick to the topic already...

Yes please educate me. So by your above education, Iran should be considered extremist because they have an elected government that supports terrorism. Also, since this elected government is calling for the publishing of anti jewish cartoons ( which I have no idea how it fits in), it should further providence to it's extremist nature of it population.
Or perhaps you mean, since the governments of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc. are not democratic and are only calling for a boycott of European goods, that should also not be considered the "Islamic" response. Therefore the violence that is taking place by its populace is the actual response...one that reinforces the depictions.

[NameInUse]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

@xguru

Show me a post from any democratic Muslim government that has praised the actions of suicide bombers?

Iran does it all the time.

[legbreakgoogly]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

Within Isreal it is legitimate struggle.

[xguru]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

@NameInUse

Iran does it all the time.

Iran is not a democratic country. It might hold elections every 4 or whatever years it is but it is ruled by a clergy that decides what the government can and cannot do. It is dictatorship. Hope that clears things up for you.

[legbreakgoogly]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

Who said democracy is the best way?

We can accept it where we are born ect, just go along quietly. But why should the world aspire to it?

Frankly, I'm a fan of noble elites. Democracy measures quantity and not quality.

[ak47]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

question for the islamaphobes counter argue the hypocrisy of the Danish paper they published anti muslim cartoons in name of free speech, But same paper refused to publish jesus cartoons beause they would offend a lot of people!

[xguru]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

@NameInUse

These are not my definitions, these, along with most of the world, are my observations of the Islamic world. I don’t care what Islam is or what the definition of Islam is. To me it is another aribitrary religion. I have no idea what Islam’s religious text(s) say. All I know is that Muslims through out the world act in a manner that is contrary to estabalishments of freedom and tolerance in civilized societies.
You said "Never claimed that Muslim majority countries today are the bastion of freedom and rule of law. You want the “West” to act in a manner where freedom of press, speech, and expression are trumped by the religious sentiments of Muslims and forced on people who do not believe in the devinity of it’s religious personalities. In other words, the “West” considers these freedoms as sacred ads you consider your prophet. If you do not like these freedoms and do not want them allowed, then what you want is, by your own words, a society like the present Islamic ones.

That is your narrow vision of Islam. You think the small number of extremists in a 1+ billion people religion is what really Islam is all about. Continue to follow that. My job is to explain my view so your visions can be challenged.
I never said the west should give up its freedom of speech. Read my posts and you will find that. All I am saying is that in this “particular” case the cartoons are not freedom of speech but hate speech. It needs to condemned and not used as an excuse of freedom of speech. Got it?

So let me get this straight. Because no apologies were made, by a government because it’s newspapers were exercising their rights, people have the right to commit violent acts?

Is hate speech their right? You saying it is ok to print hate speech? Read my posts more carefully. When the cartoons were published the publishers were made aware of this fact that these cartoons are hate speech by Muslims in Denmark. Since the publishers themselves were full of hate for Muslims they ignored it. Then Norway took the baton and now here we are…

The cartoon were published in other newspapers last week when Muslims started to attack freedoms, which people in the west hold higher than religion.
So what you are saying is: Subjugate yourself to Islamic views or we’ll turn violent.

Get your facts straight. Once again, nobody is telling you subjugate to Islamic views. Get that point dude. How many times do I have to say it for you to comprehend…

Yes please educate me. So by your above education, Iran should be considered extremist because they have an elected government that supports terrorism. Also, since this elected government is calling for the publishing of anti jewish cartoons ( which I have no idea how it fits in), it should further providence to it’s extremist nature of it population.
Or perhaps you mean, since the governments of Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, etc. are not democratic and are only calling for a boycott of European goods, that should also not be considered the “Islamic” response. Therefore the violence that is taking place by its populace is the actual response…one that reinforces the depictions.

Iran is not a democratic Muslim country. Neither is Kuwait, Saudi Arabia or Pakistan. I don’t consider the leaders of these nations representing the views of their nations. Now to the boycots. Since Denmark (their President said so) has said it has a right to publish hate speech and not apologize for it the Islamic countries have the right to respond by not dealing business with Denmark. The violence, I and most of the Islamic world has and will continue to condemn. BTW, most of the violence has taken place in the most repressive countries as well. Was it the will of the people or the dictator there trying to score some points. I will never know…

[xguru]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

@ak47

question for the islamaphobes counter argue the hypocrisy of the Danish paper they published anti muslim cartoons in name of free speech, But same paper refused to publish jesus cartoons beause they would offend a lot of people!

Exactly what I have been saying but people keep spinning it into some west vs Islam thing. The publishers knew what they were doing. They knew the difference between freedom of speech and hate speech. This is hate speech. They themselves have admitted that they would not publish anything like this if Jesus was involved.

[Reza_Pahlavi]

Re: Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons, but its ok to bash Islam

@Das Reich

I am sure most of christians have no problem with holocaust cartoons
lets not turn this into a white vs black/brown thread
interesting article

Robert Fisk: This Isn’t Islam Versus Secularism

We can exercise our own hypocrisy over religious feelings. I happen to remember, more than a decade ago, a film called The Last Temptation of Christ.

[RIGHT]http://www.palestinechronicle.com/an/adlog.php?bannerid=18&clientid=13&zoneid=3&source=&block=0&capping=0&cb=93496c6f9fe5fb39d42c4fedb378ad67

By Robert Fisk

So now it’s cartoons of the Prophet Mohamed with a bomb-shaped turban. Ambassadors are withdrawn from Denmark, Gulf nations clear their shelves of Danish produce, Gaza gunmen threaten the European Union. In Denmark, Fleming Rose, the “culture” editor of the pip-squeak newspaper which published these silly cartoons - last September, for heaven’s sake - announces that we are witnessing a “clash of civilizations” between secular Western democracies and Islamic societies. This does prove, I suppose, that Danish journalists follow in the tradition of Hans Christian Anderson. Oh lordy, lordy. What we’re witnessing is the childishness of civilizations.

So let’s start off with the Department of Home Truths. This is not an issue of secularism versus Islam. For Muslims, the Prophet is the man who received divine words directly from God. We see our prophets as faintly historical figures, at odds with our high-tech human rights, almost caricatures of themselves. The fact is that Muslims live their religion. We do not. They have kept their faith through innumerable historical vicissitudes. We have lost our faith ever since Matthew Arnold wrote about the sea’s “long, withdrawing roar”. That’s why we talk about “the West versus Islam” rather than “Christians versus Islam” - because there aren’t an awful lot of Christians left in Europe. There is no way we can get round this by setting up all the other world religions and asking why we are not allowed to make fun of Mohamed.

Besides, we can exercise our own hypocrisy over religious feelings. I happen to remember how, more than a decade ago, a film called The Last Temptation of Christ showed Jesus making love to a woman. In Paris, someone set fire to the cinema showing the movie, killing a young man. I also happen to remember a US university which invited me to give a lecture three years ago. I did. It was entitled “September 11, 2001: ask who did it but, for God’s sake, don’t ask why”. When I arrived, I found that the university had deleted the phrase “for God’s sake” because “we didn’t want to offend certain sensibilities”. Ah-ha, so we have “sensibilities” too.

In other words, while we claim that Muslims must be good secularists when it comes to free speech - or cheap cartoons - we can worry about adherents to our own precious religion just as much. I also enjoyed the pompous claims of European statesmen that they cannot control free speech or newspapers. This is also nonsense. Had that cartoon of the Prophet shown instead a chief rabbi with a bomb-shaped hat, we would have had “anti-Semitism” screamed into our ears - and rightly so - just as we often hear the Israelis complain about anti-Semitic cartoons in Egyptian newspapers.

Furthermore, in some European nations - France is one, Germany and Austria are among the others - it is forbidden by law to deny acts of genocide. In France, for example, it is illegal to say that the Jewish Holocaust or the Armenian Holocaust did not happen. So it is, in fact, impermissable to make certain statements in European nations. I’m still uncertain whether these laws attain their objectives; however much you may prescribe Holocaust denial, anti-Semites will always try to find a way round. We can hardly exercise our political restraints to prevent Holocaust deniers and then start screaming about secularism when we find that Muslims object to our provocative and insulting image of the Prophet.

For many Muslims, the “Islamic” reaction to this affair is an embarrassment. There is good reason to believe that Muslims would like to see some element of reform introduced to their religion. If this cartoon had advanced the cause of those who want to debate this issue, no-one would have minded. But it was clearly intended to be provocative. It was so outrageous that it only caused reaction.

And this is not a great time to heat up the old Samuel Huntingdon garbage about a “clash of civilizations”. Iran now has a clerical government again. So, to all intents and purposes, does Iraq (which was not supposed to end up with a democratically elected clerical administration, but that’s what happens when you topple dictators). In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood won 20 per cent of the seats in the recent parliamentary elections. Now we have Hamas in charge of “Palestine”. There’s a message here, isn’t there? That America’s policies - “regime change” in the Middle East - are not achieving their ends. These millions of voters were preferring Islam to the corrupt regimes which we imposed on them.

For the Danish cartoon to be dumped on top of this fire is dangerous indeed.

In any event, it’s not about whether the Prophet should be pictured. The Koran does not forbid images of the Prophet even though millions of Muslims do. The problem is that these cartoons portrayed Mohamed as a bin Laden-type image of violence. They portrayed Islam as a violent religion. It is not. Or do we want to make it so?

-The Independent
[/RIGHT]

Excellent article.