Rest=remaining, everything else, the plethora without the subjective..etc.. Do you need a smilie to understand that? Pray to Vishnu that he doesn’t condemn you to come back as a cretan. Actually your choice really. 
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Muslim_Queen: *
excuse me.When animals are slaughtered in the Islamic way- they dont suffer. Its not incorrect for your info- simply... its that you refuse to believe the facts.Animals dont suffer when they are killed in the Islamic way.Islam doesnt believe in torturing animals as you seem to be thinking.
[/QUOTE]
Islam may not belive in it..but the act is hurting the animals more so than chopping the head off. Now either islam has it wrong or you do. You are excused bTW.
Only Allah is the Lord and rest are simply false gods. And I only pray to Him :swt:
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
Islam may not belive in it..but the act is hurting the animals more so than chopping the head off. Now either islam has it wrong or you do. You are excused bTW.
[/QUOTE]
lol thanks for excusing me.No honestly I dont know why you cant comprehend the fact that the animals do not feel any pain when they are killed in this way.Im sure I dont have it wrong.Had I- I wouldnt be eating meat.
Well, I eat meat as well and eating meat has nothing to do with whether the game felt pain or not. It is about the method of killing. The fact that you think it is less painful either means you have been a goat in in you rprevious life an are haiving flashbacks or have some info that is above and beyond than what medical science has to offer. Oh and before you reply with the Quran as source, I cnsider that circular logic.
So let me giv eyou your answer, according to you belief as faith in the holy bbok, the animals don't feel any pain, (which is actually based on the Jewish model and rationale provided up above) and that is fine. Just say that, do not make categorical statemetns as universal fact that animals don;t feel pain when they ar eslowly bled to death, all conventional wisdom and scientific vidence points otherwise.
lets just end the quarrel and agree God (Vishnu to u Matty, if you like) knows best..?
i dont see the point in arguing abotu something that cant be proven
That is what I said Saddzz, according to faith (not fact) people can believe that animals are looking forward to getting their throats slashed or whatever but that is faith...it is not a universal law.
If done right..
Observations of over 3000 cattle and formula-fed veal calves were made by the first author in three different U.S. kosher slaughter plants. The plants had state of the art upright restraint systems. The systems are described in detail in Grandin (1988,1991,1992,1993a). The cattle were held in either a modified ASPCA pen:
In all three restraint systems, the animals had little or no reaction to the throat cut. There was a slight flinch when the blade first touched the throat. This flinch was much less vigorous than an animal’s reaction to an eartag punch. There was no further reaction as the cut proceeded. Both carotids were severed in all animals. Some animals in the modified ASPCA pen were held so loosely by the head holder and rear pusher gate that they could have easily pulled away from the knife.
These animals made no attempt to pull away. In all three slaughter plants, there was almost no visible reaction of the animal’s body or legs dunng the throat cut. Body and leg movements can be easily observed in the double rail restrainer because it lacks a pusher gate and very little pressure is applied to the body. ..
The throat cut caused a much smaller reaction than penetration of the flight zone. It appears that the animal is not aware that its throat has been cut. Bager et al., (1992) reported a similar observation with calves. Further observations of 20 Holstein, Angus and Charolais bulls indicated that they did not react to the cut…
Scientific researchers agree that sheep lose consciousness within 2 to l5 seconds after both carotid arteries are cut (Nangeroni and Kennett, 1963; Gregory and Wotton, 1984; Blackmore, 1984). However, studies with cattle and calves indicate that most animals lose consciousness rapidly, however, some animals may have a period of prolonged sensibility (Blackwore, 1984; Daly et al, 1988) that lasts for over a minute. Other studies with bovines also indicate that the time required for them to become unconscious is more variable than for sheep and goats (Munk et al., 1976; Gregory and Wotten, 1984). The differences between cattle and sheep can be explained by differences in the anatomy of their blood vessels.
Observations by the first author of both calf and cattle slaughter indicate that problems with prolonged consciousness can be corrected. When a shochet uses a rapid cutting stroke, 95% of the calves collapse almost immediately (Grandin 1987). When a slower, less decisive stroke was used, there was an increased incidence of prolonged sensibility. Approximately 30% of the calves cut with a slow knife stroke had a righting reflex and retained the ability to walk for up to 30 seconds.
Matty, yeah faith does do wonders
The Quran is a holy book, and yes we are to believe it. But, if something is out of ur comprehension.. then dont argue about it. Islam/religion is easy.. why make it difficult for urself and others
as my mum says "islam makes things easy for u.. kyun in chakaron mein par ke apne leeye hard banarahi ho"
ravage... my bro has cattle being sluaghtered on a home video and they were cut the islamic way.. but trust me, they did make quite a bit of scene trying to be pulled away..
im not saying they feel the pain more... but an animal does struggle..
Saddzz it is not out of my comprehension, the argument that is being madeis not being prefaced as faith but as fact. Which is a stupid way to go about it considering it can’t be proven with empirical evidence. SOme idiot is gonna comeby and post 19 articles that say halaal is inhumane now that ravage has gone above and beyond to prove something from a jewish site 
.
To say that what certain simple folks are suggesting is incomprehensible is kind of wrong. YOur mom is right though..listen to her!!! If your faithmakes life easy for you then that is great, you don’t need to justify your beliefs by trying to attach some h to universal concept of fact or truth to it. Otherwis eit would be like gravity adn make sense for everyone. nome sayn 
this isnt from a jewish site matsui, its from someone who finds it interesting to be a scientist studying humane slaughter of cattle. press backspace on the url till you reach .com and press enter to see what the site actually is about.
the reason halal and kosher are coupled together in this article and most others you'll find.. is that the only difference bw the two is that halaal demands saying Allah's name before the cut.
and what, if not emperical evidence should one go on, when the question is if the animal feels pain?
sadzz, I prefaced my post with 'if done right'. most people dont follow the correct procedures, which includes having the animal drink water, ensuring that the knife remains out of view, having a sharp knife, severing the throat with one cut, ensuring the animal does not hear other animals braying so that it isnt agitated.
if you actually read the article,you'll see that if the animal isnt agitated, doesnt see the knife, and the cut is quick, it dies/loses consciousness without feeling the cut.
Matty, no no i didnt say the argument was out of ur comprehension..
what i meant was we dont know how an animal will feel.. why bother arguing it will or will not feel pain.. besides, pain is hard to measure..
sorries i wasnt pointing the finger at u.
yeah, my mum comes up with some good stuff somtimes. I like her simple faith
ravage… sorry didnt read properly 
see thats the difference… the Islamic way may be less painful, but, as muslims do we do it the right way so that the animal doesnt feel the pain?
ive seen animals being halal’d.. and trust me its not pretty.
We can argue that it “may” cause less pain, but its different in practice
i've seen it too, and yes it isnt. infact once i was actually forced to use the knife on a poor bakra as a stupid sort of thrusting into manhoodness. i guess i was 13 or so. i got nervous, didnt cut the throat fast enough, and the poor animal remained conscious for almost a minute. it was a harrowing, harrowing experience.
anyhow.
however correct your guidelines can be, you cant stop people from cutting corners because of ignorance, haste, desire to get to the next bakra as soon as possible, etc etc etc, unless you ensure that they're actually met. Ask for that, and not a peep from me.
[quote]
Would you like to have your throat slashed and slowly bleed to death or have someone chop your head off? Not an indictment but logically speaking,......
[/quote]
Did you say logically? I would say chopp of my head,[cuz when it comes to chopping off the human head, Islam says do it in one go as a jerk not slowly as is done with animals] not leave me to bleed to death becuaes I'm a human not an Animal. With animals its different
- cut the throat, windpipe and the blood vessels in the neck causing the animal’s death without cutting the spinal cord.
- Let the blood drain completely before the head is removed. The purpose is to drain out most of the blood which would serve as a good culture medium for micro organisms. The spinal cord must not be cut because the nerve fibres to the heart could be damaged during the process causing cardiac arrest, stagnating the blood in the blood vessels. Just for you info Blood is a good media of germs, bacteria, toxins, etc. Therefore the Muslim way of slaughtering is more hygienic as most of the blood containing germs, bacteria, toxins, etc. that are the cause of several diseases are eliminated. This also results in Meat remaing fresh for a longer time due to deficiency of blood in the meat as compared to other methods of slaughtering.
- The swift cutting of vessels of the neck disconnects the flow of blood to the nerve of the brain responsible for pain. Thus the animal does not feel pain. While dying, the animal struggles, writhers, shakes and kicks, not due to pain, but due to the contraction and relaxation of the muscles defecient in blood and due to the flow of blood out of the body. I'll make sure I tell that to my headchopper so as not to make him feel more guilty.
- Please carefully read the Post of revage as well cuz after than, I'm sure you would not want your head to be chopped off immediately.
[quote]
it seems that no one in their right mind wold want to have their throat slashed and bleed to death slowly.
[/quote]
If you think this causes more pain then where are your 'logics' for that.
[quote]
If you think animals go through less pain or something or deserves this fate, you are wrong.
[/quote]
Hypothetical statements dont have any value. I say it is right prove me wrong now.
[quote]
Halaal way of killing animals is simply and purely inhumane.
[/quote]
So who is doing it with humans? Oh! I almost forgot you were talking about the human's head chopped off in the begining of the post right. Well guess what In Islam we dont have 'hanging to death' when s'one is sentenced to death. His/her head is chopped of. Pretty human haan? See we deal humans not in an inhuman way.
[quote]
ANd "themuslimwoman" online is not the JAMA.
[/quote]
what is JAMA?
[quote]
Do google better.
[/quote]
Thanks for the advice I'v some piece of advice for you as well. While you would be looking to find 'proofs' which negate the fact that Animals feel less pain the hallal way of slaughtering "do google better"
[quote]
It is about the method of killing.
[/quote]
I respect the love you have for the animals. But you have been misguided by s'one that Muslism hurt them more.
[quote]
The fact that you think it is less painful either means you have been a goat in in you rprevious life an are haiving flashbacks or have some info that is above and beyond than what medical science has to offer.
[/quote]
Amusing.
The fact that you [Matsui] think it [hallal way of slaughtering] is more painful either means you have been a goat in your previous life and are having flashbacks or have some info that is above and beyond than what medical science has to offer. I ask you which case is yours?
[quote]
Oh and before you reply with the Quran as source, I cnsider that circular logic.
So let me giv eyou your answer, according to you belief as faith in the holy bbok, the animals don't feel any pain, (which is actually based on the Jewish model and rationale provided up above) and that is fine. Just say that, do not make categorical statemetns as universal fact that animals don;t feel pain when they ar eslowly bled to death, all conventional wisdom and scientific vidence points otherwise.
[/quote]
We never made any such statements. We merely practice it because wer were told to do so. Its the scientists whom you hold as athority to your doings and non doings who say such things.
[quote]
Saddzz it is not out of my comprehension, the argument that is being madeis not being prefaced as faith but as fact.
[/quote]
Common how can you say that? I mean re-go through the whole thread how many facts did you used to base your opinion on. Before this post of yours just point one single fact which you have mentioned. one single fact thats alll I ask for. I mean I ask you, are you not making fool of your self when you say you are talking about facts without even even a single fact.
[quote]
Which is a stupid way to go about it considering it can't be proven with empirical evidence.
[/quote]
As if you have been providing the empirical evidences all they along. right.
[quote]
SOme idiot is gonna comeby and post 19 articles that say halaal is inhumane.......
[/quote]
Fine we heared you the first time. And told you earlier we dont have such behaviour for humans. In that case we chopp. Are you satisfied? I mean exactly what you want , isnt it?
[quote]
......now that ravage has gone above and beyond to prove something from a jewish site.
[/quote]
The beauty is even the non belivers acknowledge. Why dont they acknowledge what you belive is right.
[quote]
To say that what certain simple folks are suggesting is incomprehensible is kind of wrong.
[/quote]
Dont get angry while debating, specially when you are trying to prove wrong a right.
[quote]
...........you don't need to justify your beliefs by trying to attach some h to universal concept of fact or truth to it.
[/quote]
So is this why, you dont practice the right. Just becase you think fatih doesnt need conviction.
[quote]
Otherwis eit would be like gravity adn make sense for everyone. nome sayn
[/quote]
My friend every single thing in my religion makes sense and has a reson to believe. Had it not been the case then the Christan Misionaries would not have left what they preached for my religion. I hold it dear. Dont you ever say it doesnt make sense, unless you bring the thing which is senseless.
[quote]
That is what I said Saddzz, according to faith (not fact) people can believe that animals are looking forward to getting their throats slashed or whatever but that is faith...it is not a universal law.
[/quote]
Point one: Who told you we believe that the animals look forward to get slaughtered.
[quote]
i dont see the point in arguing abotu something that cant be proven
[/quote]
What we do has been proven by the nonmuslim scientists.
[quote]
Matty, yeah faith does do wonders
[/quote]
My brother Islam has conviction. Why then your faith wonders?
[quote]
The Quran is a holy book, and yes we are to believe it. But, if something is out of ur comprehension.. then dont argue about it.
[/quote]
I'm sorry but if he cant comprehend s'thing and doesnt aruge abuot it then how would he clear his comprehension. if he had misconprehended htings, in the first place.
[quote]
Islam/religion is easy.. why make it difficult for urself and others
[/quote]
If you didnt realise you are making it diffuclt for others and I've a feeling even for yourself. please dont do it.
[quote]
as my mum says "islam makes things easy for u.. kyun in chakaron mein par ke apne leeye hard banarahi ho"
[/quote]
Why do you have to bring this here. I mean you are debating with a nonmuslim who would be least interested to know what people say about islam. You bring your family matters out. What exactly were you thinking. And btw, tell your mother if you dont 'put' your self in such 'chakars' you may never learn. And ignorace may copletely blindfold you and you keep thinging, it is the easy Islam you are following. My friend having a submission to Allah [swt] commands is not an easy job to do for believers like us. So do keep this in mind it is not as easy as it is projected. Controll your 'nafs' and you'll know how difficult it is. Just one thing I ask you to do.
[quote]
why bother arguing it will or will not feel pain.
[/quote]
Why are you stopping him from arguing? Give me just a single good reason.
brother revage I appreciate your efforst.
I seek forgivness,from Allah [swt], incase I had wrote s'thing wrong/incorrect. Surely Allah [swt] knows the best.
Stupid Idiot, Since Muslim Queen has sent 5 pm’s to my imbox asking me to reply, I will do it. Yours was the stupidest of the most idiotic replies yet in this thread. There is no hyprocricy in you sister :k:
Blood is not the only source of germs. Marrow, tissue, also can carry disease. As far as the rest of your medical thesis on pain in animals, it is amateurish at best. If you don;t think animals don;t feel pain and feel pain differently than humans, and if your religion tells you that. Then my dear stupid idiot, ther religion is wrong.
As far as Islam chopping of heads, islam also recommends stonings etc…as the act of humanity. 
JAMA is Journal of American Medical Association.. 
I might have been a goat in my previous life, you might have been a pig. Sounds about right.
Halaal is just a jewish method of killing animals to rid the blood because fo the heat and dirt flying around the desert back int he day. There is no benefit one way or the other in this day and age.
Go to Philippines, there is a delicacy called Danuguyan, which is basically spiced pigs blood. You would love it.
As far the the “everything in my religion makes sense…” well more power to you. Just remember what your nick is.
matsui I said you ran away from stupid idiots replies.And umm honestly now... your post was a very poor attempt of defense on your part.
btw dont be fooled by his/her nick.It could be a use of irony or sarcasm.
:o
MQ, do you reply to every post in Gupshup? I did a comunity service because you send me 5 pm’s. My post is not defensive, it is just a refutation of anachronistic beliefs. If you perceive it as defensive then that is more up to your congnitive reasoning skills than anything else. I can’t be blamed for how Vishnu has created you. I can only try to help you along. Shalom.
na I usually reply to every post that I wish to reply to.You left because stupid idot proved some points to you.I see that you dont wish to acknowledge them -but your problem not mine.
I just think its strange that you cant give some credit to people who take the time to tell you something.
True your post isnt defensive.Its a few sentences of gibberish.:p
Vishnu didnt create me Im afraid.Besides I thought you guys created him/it.:o