In another thread, a very prominent, and arguably clever guppie, made a comment (paraphrasing) “US is going to defeat islamic fundamentalism”.
Acha.
As any half-decent management consultant will tell you, the first aim for a well-designed mission is to have clearly known milestones of success.
So how will you know that you have defeated “islamic fundamentalism”? Considering that “Islamic fundamentalism” is quite poorly defined in the first place and depending on who you ask, can mean the entire 1.4 billion muslims are part of it, or just a small fraction who are card-carrying members of Al-Qaida.
Are the measures of success, include getting rid of Saddam, who was never an Islamic fundamentalist in the first place. Or putting in place a more religious government in Iraq. Or capturing random members of Al-Qaida every few weeks.
Re: Measurement of success - When do you defeat fundamentalism
Faisal, Now I aint no big shot management , but maybe listen to Bob Marleys "War no more trouble" He sums up the milestones that Madhanee may have missed.
Re: Measurement of success - When do you defeat fundamentalism
Thanks. This is a start. And this is exactly why I need to understand better the whole freedom-will-rid-the-world-of-fundamentalism argument. Forget the dictatorships of ME for a moment. Lets focus on South Asia and Far East Asia. Why are so many people over there turning towards violence in the name of religion, when arguably places like Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia have relatively high degree of freedoms, gender-based equality etc. Much better than places like KSA etc.
If the reason so many people are added to the cadres of islamic fundamentalists under dubious leaders who sculpt them into warriors, is poverty and lack of education… then how will you track milestones of success. Many of these parts of the world are getting poorer every day simply due to population explosion.
Re: Measurement of success - When do you defeat fundamentalism
Faisal Bhaijan, this is called integrated set of problems, there's no single factor that tips the equation. In case of Pakistan, poverty breeds illiteracy that in turns results in dictatorships every few years. Poverty and lack of opportunities in turn are breeding grounds for fundamentalists’ beliefs. Again, there’s no single linear model that can be applied to all situations and all countries. Fundamentalists can as easily be born and raised in Norway as they can be in Pakistan or India. Each case is unique, but what it fairly clear is that religious fundamentalism is a threat to a civil society and it must be stopped. An example of such is the Mullahs making trouble and stopping female’s runners to compete in a race. We may call it Cultural idiosyncrasies, or we may call it Religious obligations. It doesn’t matter what it is called, whether it is Islamic Fundamentalism or dog’s balls. We need to save ourselves from this evil.
Re: Measurement of success - When do you defeat fundamentalism
"OBEDIENCE"
Murdering dictators such as Karimov are acceptable cause they are 'obedient' rulers. US demands complete obedience, Saddam, OBL, Husni Mubarak, Musharraf, Fahd, King Abdullah, Berlusconi etc tec are all acceptable members of the world fraternity as defined by US standards.
Obedience will not be measured by the standards given by Madhanee, those standards will and can be used as tools of political blackmail, demonization, propaganda.
Obedience will be measured by the country's bidding of US diktat's.
Re: Measurement of success - When do you defeat fundamentalism
Religious fundamentalism is a threat to a civil society, only and only if that civil society is secular in nature. If that’s not the case, then the Religious fundamentalism can within it self achieve these milestones that you have mentioned while adhering to its "civil" religious principles.
Re: Measurement of success - When do you defeat fundamentalism
I agree that the Taliban failed to achieve the religious principles due to their extremist "civil" interpretation. But failure is not just limited to Taliban, there are scores of secular extremist governments who are working so hard to reach these milestones as well, do you want me to list them.
Re: Measurement of success - When do you defeat fundamentalism
Islamic fundamentalism can not be defeated by military might. Fundamentalism is a deeply held religious belief that requires a literal and traditional interpretation of scripture. Any change there has to come from within the religion and its followersa. What can and should be defeated is Islamic extremism, which is basically a fundamentalist on a misguided and violent jihad.
Christians have fundamentalists as well - Falwell, Robertson, Graham, Dobson, represent their point of view (intoleranct, divisive, fractious) and they currently have the ear of the US government and affect policy. So if w are going to have a war on fundamentalists, let's start there.
Re: Measurement of success - When do you defeat fundamentalism
This is a fine example of intolerance in itself. You don’t agree with Falwell, Robertson and Graham so you attack them as intolerant, divisive, and fractious. Maybe it is you who are divisive and fractious because you don’t accept them.
On the broader issue of Islamic fundamentalism, I sort of agree with you. All fundamentalists are not bad and I don’t think we ought to expand the war/battle to include all fundamentalists. To do so, guarantees defeat. We should not focus on trying to eliminate a belief. We should focus on trying to eliminate a behavior.
We need to demonstrate how Islamic fundamentalism can co-exist peaceably with the rest of the world. We need to eliminate the perpetrators of violent acts and those who encite them.
Re: Measurement of success - When do you defeat fundamentalism
It really is fascinating when one can step back and be completely neutral in their evaluation of people. (Like me, of course).
Did you ever think that they might perceive you as being the one having the dogmatic agenda that they don’t want influencing policy? They think your pro-gay agenda is divisive and intolerant and you see their pro-marriage agenda as being divisive and intolerant. Neither of you wants the other’s agenda influencing policy. It’s all perspective my friend.
That is why we should not focus on eliminating Islamic fundamentalism as a belief structure. That belief structure is neither right nor wrong. It’s just different from our perspective. Until and unless I am convinced that it is the belief structure that equates with violent behavior, I would choose to focus on the behavior as the problem and not the belief.
Re: Measurement of success - When do you defeat fundamentalism
myvoice... all those lofty ideals are fine... but the essential question remains... how is US (or anyone) going to measure the success of this endeavor? Is it more like a wild goose chase with no realistic milestone of success and consequently a never-ending war?
Re: Measurement of success - When do you defeat fundamentalism
It’s a never ending war. The war between good and evil has been ongoing since man was created. Every victory in an individual battle is a milestone. The war will not always be waged with military troops. A long term measure of success is how long a time passes between the necessity for the commitment of our military troops. Another measure of success is how few and far between are terrorist attacks on our soil.
As long as we remain free and do not cower in fear in our homes against the enemy, we are winning. I don’t think that is wildly chasing the goose.