Re: Massacre of Hazaras
Astaghfirullah. :( My heart goes out to the victims' families.
Re: Massacre of Hazaras
I do not get what you are talking about.
Which part? If by iraq, then I meant that iraq is a shiite country and just as sunni extremists didn't really win anything there is not so much different as to how shiite militants will fare in the long term.
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as is the case with Coast guards getting deputed officers from the navy, but that does not mean that those officers make decisions on the ground. The calls are made by the interior ministry.
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Minor correction: The coast guard gets its ranks named and officers deputed from the Pakistan Army. I think what you were alluding to what the MSA (Maritime Security Agency) which is headed by an Admiral and would go under the Navy in case of a war. The ironically named Pakistan Coastguard is basically a land force (with some water component?) that is used mainly in balochistan to interdict land smuggling.
Confusing much? :p
Btw, I do agree with your point. At least the Rangers in karachi were considered more impartial when the businessmen went to kiyani to conduct an operation against People aman committee etc since it is supposedly a joint command by army and the govt, but we all know how the operation turned out with this govt in power...
Re: Massacre of Hazaras
It is absolutely understandable to give weapons to shias like Hazaras who are being massacred like this. If government can not fight the terrorists then it is their right to fight the terrorists themselves.
And Zia's khabaasat went beyond just raising private militias and terrorists in political parties like Nawaz Sharif. He also bred them by spreading and encouraging thousands of terrorist infested madressahs all across the country.
What stops them to becoming another mini-taliban in the future as are you going to tell me that there aren't any emotional and extremist elements not present in the shiites? Not only that but you are also inviting the pagal mullah regime of iran to interfere in Pakistan.
Re: Massacre of Hazaras
What stops them to becoming another mini-taliban in the future as are you going to tell me that there aren't any emotional and extremist elements not present in the shiites? Not only that but you are also inviting the pagal mullah regime of iran to interfere in Pakistan.
Because Shias could be extremist but they are Muslim and thus cannot become Takfeeri as both Shia and Sunni considers Takfeer takes people out of Islam (make them Kharjee or Kafir).
On the other hand, if they (Shias) would take up arms that I believe they should, than it would be for self-defence and to take revenge against those (Kharjees) who are persecuting and killing them, while state is doing nothing.
Shias (and even Sunnis) taking up arms can never happen to kill Muslims who do not agree with their brand/understanding of Islam ... something only Takfeeris could do, else Muslims life are safe from the hands of Muslim, especially on religious ground.
Re: Massacre of Hazaras
NEWSFLASH: Every sect, in one way or the other, considers the other kaafir or impure muslims at the least. Heck, the qadyanis that are prosecuted in pakistan consider us all non-muslims since the lahori firqa, that some ulemas considered ok since it didn't consider mirza as a prophet, has pretty much died out.
Re: Massacre of Hazaras
NEWSFLASH: Every sect, in one way or the other, considers the other kaafir or impure muslims at the least. Heck, the qadyanis that are prosecuted in pakistan consider us all non-muslims since the lahori firqa, that some ulemas considered ok since it didn't consider mirza as a prophet, has pretty much died out.
You are wrong. No Muslim (of any sect) consider other sect (even if they have completely different Aqedah) as kafir. Actually, hands of Muslims are so tied in this respect that they do not even call Yazeed as Kafir, even though Muslims consider him in their heart as good as Kafir.
If you look into history, Muslims fought many battles with each other, but all was for sake of power, territory, money, throne, greed, revenge, self-defence, etc ... but never on the ground of faith. Exception are few where people who use to call themselves Muslim fought and killed other Muslims on ground of faith (or using faith as excuse) and in each case those who fought and killed Muslims were Takfeeries (a trade-mark of Kharjees).
Else, Salahuddin Ayubi was Sunni but was military general of a Shia Regime (Fatamids of Egypt) and Humayun (Mughal King, father of Akber) was Sunni but when his Kingdom got lost to Sher-Shah Suri he took refuge with Shia regime Safavids and was given army by Safavids to fight Sher-Shah Suri to regain his Kingdom
Safavids and Ottoman fought each other, but never for religion sake, rather always for territory. Well, Mecca and Madina was under Ottoman control and many Shia Sheraeens were under control of Ottomans still Shia under Safavids and Sunnis used to visits them unrestricted.
Actually, fact is that, if anyone (be they Qadiyani or whoever) calls or considers Muslims as Kafir then they are themselves Kafir ... not because of differences in understanding Islam but because of their Takfeer.
Re: Massacre of Hazaras
NEWSFLASH: Every sect, in one way or the other, considers the other kaafir or impure muslims at the least. Heck, the qadyanis that are prosecuted in pakistan consider us all non-muslims since the lahori firqa, that some ulemas considered ok since it didn't consider mirza as a prophet, has pretty much died out.
Your news can go down the flush because that is where it belongs. From ages all the religions or sects living across the world have written pages upon pages against one another but that is a matter of theological discussion and debate just like it takes place in academic domain of other subjects like Science. What we are witnessing in Pakistan is not due to some inherent problem of religion that you are trying to portray but rather it is primarily the matter of inept leadership and clumsy governance and administration.
Re: Massacre of Hazaras
I would be happy if it was only the news, but it seems humans are going down the flush as well. My point still stands. It will take time to create tolerance in society and the first step is better law enforcement from police, prosecution and then judiciary. People blame the judiciary, but I have seen cases where the govt did a third class job of actually gathering evidence and making a case: some people here are basically asking the judiciary to detain suspects like what happened in arab dictatorships like egypt.
Re: Massacre of Hazaras
Quetta carnage was avoidable had Kurd been nabbed - thenews.com.pk
LAHORE: The February 16 carnage of 90 more Shia Hazaras in Quetta could have been prevented had the Frontier Corps (FC) and the police made concerted efforts to arrest a coterie of terrorists belonging to Usman Saifullah Kurd faction of the Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, as recommended in a secret dossier.
The dossier contained details about the planners and the attackers responsible for the January 10 killing of 100-plus Shia Hazaras in double suicide bombings on the Alamdar Road in Quetta.It was prepared by the Quetta Police following the imposition of the governor’s rulein Balochistan on January 14 in the wake of the four-day sit-in by the Hazaras.
The federal government had subsequently ordered the Frontier Corps and Quetta Police to take all possible steps for immediate arrest of Usman Kurd and other members of the Balochistan chapter of LeJ which is spearheading the ongoing reign of terror against the Shia Hazaras in Quetta and other parts of the province. The dossier carried specific information about the alleged masterminds of the Quetta January 14 suicide bombings, along with their pictures and likely whereabouts.
When the governor’s rule was imposed in Balochistan, the Frontier Corps, which works under the command of the Army, was also given police powers to arrest the criminals besides being made responsible for the security situation. The police were asked to assist the FC. The information contained in the secret police dossier about the LeJ network in Balochistan was also shared with the FC, with a proposal to launch a targeted operation against the anti-Shia terrorists without any delay.
However, yet another lethal suicide attack in a short span of one month, killing almost 100 more Shia Hazaras, has come as yet another failure of the law enforcement agencies which were tasked to maintain law and order.
It was in the wake of the American invasion of Afghanistan after the 9/11 attacks that the targeted killing of Hazaras by the LeJ had started in Balochistan. But the anti-Shia outfit has beaten its previous bests this year, killing almost 200 Shias in the first 45 days of 2013 in just two attacks in Quetta, compared with 152 Shias who had been killed all over Balochistan in 54 incidents in 2012.
The LeJ, which is allegedly being backed by the Ahle Sunnat Wal Jamaat (former Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan), openly issues death threats to Shia Hazaras in Balochistan and describes them as Wajib-ul-Qatl (liable to be killed). According to the information gathered by the law enforcement agencies, two splinter groups of the lethal Lashkar-known as Usman Kurd group and Shafiqur Rehman Rind group are active in Balochistan and targeting the Shia Hazaras by using their human bombs.
Interestingly, both Usman Kurd and Shafique Rind had escaped from a high security jail in Quetta Cantonment way back in 2008. While Kurd carries a Rs2.5 million head money, his second-in-command, Dawood Badini and Shafique Rind carry a reward of Rs2 million each respectively. Both Kurd and Badini were sentenced to death by an Anti-Terrorist Court of Quetta on November 8, 2003 for masterminding two terrorist attacks in Quetta that killed 65 people. Badini is the nephew of al-Qaeda’s former No3 Khalid Sheikh Mohammad and the brother-in-law of Ramzi Yousaf, the mastermind of the first terror attack on the World Trade Center in New York 1993. Ramzi was arrested from an Islamabad guest house in 1995 and extradited to the US. While Badini was nabbed by the Sindh Rangers from Karachi on June 12, 2003, Usman Kurd was arrested by the Criminal Investigation Unit of the Karachi Police from Mauripur area of Karachi on June 22, 2006.
During subsequent interrogation, Usman Kurd, s/o Muhammad Noor, had confessed to having trained a large number of target killers and suicide bombers to step up attacks against Shia Hazaras in Balochistan, especially in Quetta. Usman Kurd also confessed to planning dozens of suicide attacks on Shia religious processions and Shia imambargahs, besides having ordered the killing of professionals, police cadets and political activists. The sectarian attacks in Quetta had virtually been stopped following the arrest of Kurd and Badini. But quite unfortunately, both the LeJ men made good their escape under mysterious circumstances on January 18, 2008 after breaking the jail which was located in the high security zone of the Quetta Cantonment.
A subsequent report by the Minority Support of Pakistan (MSP), a non-partisan NGO which is devoted to building advocacy for the minority rights, alleged that all signs of escape pointed to orchestration from the powerful people. The reported added that the night Usman Kurd and Dawood Badin had escaped along with their third companion Shafiqur Rehman Rind [who was arrested in 2003], the Hazara guards were relieved of duty and the roster was abruptly changed by the jail bosses. While Rind was rearrested by the police six months later in July 2008, Usman Kurd and Dawood Badini remain at large and keep pursuing their anti-Shia Hazara agenda in Balochistan.
According to the Hazara Democratic Party (HDP) Chairman Abdul Khaliq Hazara, it is easy to predict where the anti-Shia attacks will take place in the provincial metropolis. Many such assaults take place in the Spini Road area which links Mehrabad to Hazara Town, one of the main Hazara enclaves which lies on the other side of Quetta city. He regretted that the assassins roar up on motorbikes without wearing masks, open fire, and are gone, never to be caught by security forces. Khaliq interpreted the failure of the law enforcement agencies, especially the Frontier Corps (FC) to stop the LeJ’s campaign as a sign that powerful people in the country were turning a blind eye, if not actively abetting the killers.
Many Baloch nationalist leaders in Quetta also castigate those wielding power for their failure to stop the killing of Shia Hazaras despite the fact that the FC literally rules the roost in Balochistan, especially after the imposition of the governor’s rule. The nationalists say the power in the province actually belongs to the FC which runs a parallel government. While blaming the FC for extra-judicial killings of Baloch activists, the nationalists say it should try to nip the evil of the LeJ in the bud. However, Maj Gen Obaidullah Khan, the FC commander in Balochistan, dispels the impression that the security establishment was not taking enough measures to uproot the LeJ network from Quetta and other parts of the province.
The IGFC Balochistan was recently quoted as saying: “The FC’s efforts to capture the wanted LeJ terrorists are hindered by the group’s ability to infiltrate Quetta from others parts of the province and return immediately after the assault. They (LeJ hit men) come from outside, remain here for a short time, operate and just vanish. Whenever we have got a chance, we have operated against them and we will not spare them. For us, there is no exception come what may”.
Re: Massacre of Hazaras
^last paragraph indicates where key to the problem lies. These terrorist centers and training camp are based in Punjab and so commonly known to people that even I personally know 3 people who have been trained in them to be able to take part in “Jihad”. These people and specifically those mentioned in the above article are pure criminals with their police records laden with unlawful activities. You will see in the following link photos of some of these characters like Usman Kurd. Lashkar-e Jhangvi Terrorist Organization
Re: Massacre of Hazaras
I was reading somewhere most of the terrorists camps are based in Bahawalpur and outskirts of Dera Ghazi Khan... its impossible to believe intelligence have no clue abt these training camps....
Re: Massacre of Hazaras
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Else, Salahuddin Ayubi was Sunni but was military general of a Shia Regime (Fatamids of Egypt) and Humayun (Mughal King, father of Akber) was Sunni but when his Kingdom got lost to Sher-Shah Suri he took refuge with Shia regime Safavids and was given army by Safavids to fight Sher-Shah Suri to regain his Kingdom
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Ayyubid was its own dynasty. As for humayun, he was aided because his future influence could be crucial in converting india to shiiasm. In fact, it is one of the famous arguments where a sunni theologian defeated a shiite cleric who had been brought by the shiite iranian queen to convince the king to become shiite. If you know history then you would know that converting a king had a lot of influence on the religion of its people. Iran used to be sunni as well, but safavid rule turned them shiite. I have given you some explanation for why it happened in the next paragraph.
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Safavids and Ottoman fought each other, but never for religion sake, rather always for territory. Well, Mecca and Madina was under Ottoman control and many Shia Sheraeens were under control of Ottomans still Shia under Safavids and Sunnis used to visits them unrestricted.
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I remember nadir shah tried to make ja'afiriya as fifth sect of sunni islam, but yes iranian territorial ambitions were mixed with their shiite religion. In retrospect, shiite disrespect for the first three caliphs works perfectly for the iranian hatred against Hazrat Umar (RA) for successfully defeating them. Many supremacist iranians still can't digest that arabs defeated them or that persian is arabinized or wasn't even replaced by arabic in the early years by a bunch of camel milk drinking raghead bedouins. You haven't met any iranian akhunds, have you yet? :D
Re: Massacre of Hazaras
^ they know everything Police and security agencies are hell corrupt and Punjab govt.are there open guardian NS was like a son to zia and after Zia NS feeding and financial them with SA riyals. Now recenly Pmln and Aswj seat adjustment in Punjab shows enough how close they are. Everything is clear every body know the names and locations of these devils. And strange thing is only criminal silence of Army and Juidecery.
Re: Massacre of Hazaras
In retrospect, shiite disrespect for the first three caliphs works perfectly for the iranian hatred against Hazrat Umar (RA) for successfully defeating them. Many supremacist iranians still can't digest that arabs defeated them or that persian is arabinized or wasn't even replaced by arabic in the early years by a bunch of camel milk drinking raghead bedouins. You haven't met any iranian akhunds, have you yet? :D
ufh, another pseudo intellectual commenting on religion! you'd think that if that was true then Iran would still be Sunni because the Sunni schools are of far more Persian in origin than the Shia school. From the founder of the biggest school within Sunnis Imam Abu Hanifa to the compilers of six Sunni sahi books of hadiths (Bukhari, Muslim, Nasai, Abu Dawood, Tirmidhi, Ibn Maja) are all Persians. Later on, Ghazali who codified the Sunni orthodoxy too was Persian.
And you'd think that Iranians would also have good reasons to hate Abu Ubayda Saqafi who was one of the two commanders responsible for conquest for Iran but they revere him because he is loved for his loyalty to the house of Mohammad pbuh. All the Shia Imams are Arab hashmi syeds. Because this is not a religious forum I must keep it short and say that re Umar bin Khattab bone of contention is many things BUT anything to do with Persia at all. By the way the type of nationalist Iranian you are talking about would denounce religion (particularly Islam) altogether and would hardly even know Umar bin Khattab.
Re: Massacre of Hazaras
just read, few critical injured ones succumbed to their injuries :(
... govt had promised to send critically injured ones to Karachi, which clearly didnt happen.
Re: Massacre of Hazaras
Re: Massacre of Hazaras
right now Protest taking place outside Supreme Court of Pakistan.... these protests should continue until their demands are met...
Re: Massacre of Hazaras
Re: Massacre of Hazaras
Was I defending Malik Ishaq's release, or lamenting the pathetic prosecution that we have?
Yes, you were defending his release & arguing that how him being jailed was, in your words, miscarriage of justice. The monster is out now killing innocent people in cold blood. Oh, and he is protected by Punjab govt that is making monthly payments to him (no judge/prosecutor will convict him because sabko apni jaan pyari hai).
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He was in jail as an accused murderer....not as a convicted murderer. He had been in jail for 12 years, without the prosecution having come up with any proof or evidence. If anything, it was a gross miscarriage of prosecution, because it is a reflection of how awful our prosecution and police are. Imagine a family member of ours being put into jail for a supposed murder, and then is left in jail for 12 years, without the case going to court?
The CJ has a soft spot for justice. Though I disagree with a lot of things he does, I dont think this criticism is fair. If a person is languishing in jail indefinitely, he deserves his day in court. And in court, it is the prosecution's responsibility to come up with witnesses and evidence. The judge cannot pass judgments based on popular public opinion.
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Re: Massacre of Hazaras
Seems you do not know what Kharjee means and why they were labelled as Kharjees by Ali (RA)? … and reason what you mentioned would not work.
Kharjees were a group of people who from outside were staunch Muslims (as far as Aamaal was concerned) but their interpretation of Quran was different.
Anyhow, their interpretation of Quran was not a problem. Problem was that, using their interpretation of Quran, they also started doing ‘takfeer’, that is, declaring Muslims not agreeing with their interpretation of Quran as ‘Kafir’ and also declared both Ali (RA) and Amir Muawiya as apostate (Kafir) who should be killed. It is their this trait that made them Kharjees (or people who left fold of Islam)
Initially, Ali (RA) tried to talk with them and many left their Kharjee group, still a number stayed adamant considering Muslims not agreeing with their interpretation of Quran as Kafir, and in the end battle of Naharwan happened where most of them got killed. Though that was not the end of Kharjees, as over the years, many group of Muslims started adopting same trait as Kharjees, doing ‘takfeer’ and killing Muslims.
In Pakistan we have many such groups who are Kharjees. Difference is that, disagreement is not just on interpretation of Quran, but on Shariah laws and Islam. If people disagree with their interpretation of ‘Quran and Islam’ then these Kharjees would declare them Kafir and would try to kill them.
Unfortunately, most who are Kharjees come from Deobandi and Wahabi sect, but that does not mean these people are Deobandi or Wahabi, as even if Deobandi and Wahabi would disagree with their interpretation of Quran and Islam, they would not hesitate to kill them.
Government could not do much as government themselves are scared of these people, especially political government whose purpose is just to loot and plunder. Army is already fighting Kharjees in the name of 'war on terror', but unfortunately army is also infected by people of this group, and thus it is very difficult for army to fight them effectively.
Suggestion that religious scholars (Ulemas) of all sects should do something about it, then that would not work with hard-line kharjees. Only thing is that, if Deobandi and Wahabi Ulema would declare Kharjee’s act as outside Islam (like doing suicide bombing, killing Shias and Sunnis, attacking Sunni mosques, Shia Imam-bargah, Mazars, Milad-ul-Nabi gatherings, etc) then effect would be that, Kharjees would find difficulty in recruiting new men in their Kharjee fold. On the other hand, Kharjees would start killing these Deobandi and Wahabi Ulemas too (that they have already done ... killed Ulemas if they find any Ulema of Deobandi or Wahabi sect disagreeing with them).
Well I know about kharjees and about their emergence during the battle of siffin. Thanks for letting me know more about them. The point I wanted to clear is whether they have same ideology of justifying the war with Hadrath Ali?