Martin L. King & Mahatma Gandhi

Re: Martin L. King & Mahatma Gandhi

Nelson Mandela](Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela)** on Gandhi :)**

He dared to exhort nonviolence in a time when the violence of Hiroshima and Nagasaki had exploded on us; he exhorted morality when science, technology and the capitalist order had made it redundant; he replaced self-interest with group interest without minimizing the importance of self. India is Gandhi’s country of birth; South Africa his country of adoption. He was both an Indian and a South African citizen. Both countries contributed to his intellectual and moral genius, and he shaped the liberatory movements in … [cont.]](http://javascript:animatedcollapse.toggle(‘continued’))

He was both an Indian and a South African citizen. Both countries contributed to his intellectual and moral genius, and he shaped the liberatory movements in both colonial theaters. He is the archetypal anticolonial revolutionary. His strategy of noncooperation, his assertion that we can be dominated only if we cooperate with our dominators, and his nonviolent resistance inspired anticolonial and antiracist movements internationally in our century. Both Gandhi and I suffered colonial oppression, and both of us mobilized our respective peoples against governments that violated our freedoms.

The Gandhian influence dominated freedom struggles on the African continent right up to the 1960s because of the power it generated and the unity it forged among the apparently powerless. Nonviolence was the official stance of all major African coalitions, and the South African A.N.C. remained implacably opposed to violence for most of its existence.

Gandhi remained committed to nonviolence; I followed the Gandhian strategy for as long as I could, but then there came a point in our struggle when the brute force of the oppressor could no longer be countered through passive resistance alone. We founded Unkhonto we Sizwe and added a military dimension to our struggle. Even then, we chose sabotage because it did not involve the loss of life, and it offered the best hope for future race relations. Militant action became part of the African agenda officially supported by the Organization of African Unity (O.A.U.) following my address to the Pan-African Freedom Movement of East and Central Africa (PAFMECA) in 1962, in which I stated, “Force is the only language the imperialists can hear, and no country became free without some sort of violence.”

Gandhi himself never ruled out violence absolutely and unreservedly. He conceded the necessity of arms in certain situations. He said, “Where choice is set between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence… I prefer to use arms in defense of honor rather than remain the vile witness of dishonor …” Violence and nonviolence are not mutually exclusive; it is the predominance of the one or the other that labels a struggle.

**Gandhi arrived in South Africa in 1893 at the age of 23. Within a week he collided head on with racism. His immediate response was to flee the country that so degraded people of color, but then his inner resilience overpowered him with a sense of mission, and he stayed to redeem the dignity of the racially exploited, to pave the way for the liberation of the colonized the world over and to develop a blueprint for a new social order. He left 21 years later, a near maha atma (great soul). There is no doubt in my mind that by the time he was violently removed from our world, he had transited into that state. **

No Ordinary Leader : Divinely Inspired: He was no ordinary leader. There are those who believe he was divinely inspired, and it is difficult not to believe with them. He dared to exhort nonviolence in a time when the violence of Hiroshima and Nagasaki had exploded on us; he exhorted morality when science, technology and the capitalist order had made it redundant; he replaced self-interest with group interest without minimizing the importance of self. In fact, the interdependence of the social and the personal is at the heart of his philosophy. He seeks the simultaneous and interactive development of the moral person and the moral society.

His philosophy of Satyagraha is both a personal and a social struggle to realize the Truth, which he identifies as God, the Absolute Morality. He seeks this Truth, not in isolation, self-centeredly, but with the people. He said, “I want to find God, and because I want to find God, I have to find God along with other people. I don’t believe I can find God alone. If I did, I would be running to the Himalayas to find God in some cave there. But since I believe that nobody can find God alone, I have to work with people. I have to take them with me. Alone I can’t come to Him.”

He sacerises his revolution, balancing the religious and the secular.

Awakening: His awakening came on the hilly terrain of the so-called Bambata Rebellion, where as a passionate British patriot, he led his Indian stretcher-bearer corps to serve the Empire, but British brutality against the Zulus roused his soul against violence as nothing had done before. He determined, on that battlefield, to wrest himself of all material attachments and devote himself completely and totally to eliminating violence and serving humanity. The sight of wounded and whipped Zulus, mercilessly abandoned by their British persecutors, so appalled him that he turned full circle from his admiration for all things British to celebrating the indigenous and ethnic. He resuscitated the culture of the colonized and the fullness of Indian resistance against the British; he revived Indian handicrafts and made these into an economic weapon against the colonizer in his call for swadeshi–the use of one’s own and the boycott of the oppressor’s products, which deprive the people of their skills and their capital.

A great measure of world poverty today and African poverty in particular is due to the continuing dependence on foreign markets for manufactured goods, which undermines domestic production and dams up domestic skills, apart from piling up unmanageable foreign debts. Gandhi’s insistence on self-sufficiency is a basic economic principle that, if followed today, could contribute significantly to alleviating Third World poverty and stimulating development.

Gandhi predated Frantz Fanon and the black-consciousness movements in South Africa and the U.S. by more than a half-century and inspired the resurgence of the indigenous intellect, spirit and industry. Gandhi rejects the Adam Smith notion of human nature as motivated by self-interest and brute needs and returns us to our spiritual dimension with its impulses for nonviolence, justice and equality. He exposes the fallacy of the claim that everyone can be rich and successful provided they work hard. He points to the millions who work themselves to the bone and still remain hungry. He preaches the gospel of leveling down, of emulating the kisan (peasant), not the zamindar (landlord), for “all can be kisans, but only a few zamindars.”

**He stepped down from his comfortable life to join the masses on their level to seek equality with them. “I can’t hope to bring about economic equality… I have to reduce myself to the level of the poorest of the poor.” **

**From his understanding of wealth and poverty came his understanding of labor and capital, which led him to the solution of trusteeship based on the belief that there is no private ownership of capital; it is given in trust for redistribution and equalization. Similarly, while recognizing differential aptitudes and talents, he holds that these are gifts from God to be used for the collective good. He seeks an economic order, alternative to the capitalist and communist, and finds this in sarvodaya based on nonviolence (AHIMSA). **

He rejects Darwin’s survival of the fittest, Adam Smith’s laissez-faire and Karl Marx’s thesis of a natural antagonism between capital and labor, and focuses on the interdependence between the two. He believes in the human capacity to change and wages Satyagraha against the oppressor, not to destroy him but to transform him, that he cease his oppression and join the oppressed in the pursuit of Truth. We in South Africa brought about our new democracy relatively peacefully on the foundations of such thinking, regardless of whether we were directly influenced by Gandhi or not.

Gandhi remains today the only complete critique of advanced industrial society. Others have criticized its totalitarianism but not its productive apparatus. He is not against science and technology, but he places priority on the right to work and opposes mechanization to the extent that it usurps this right. Large-scale machinery, he holds, concentrates wealth in the hands of one man who tyrannizes the rest. He favors the small machine; he seeks to keep the individual in control of his tools, to maintain an interdependent love relation between the two, as a cricketer with his bat or Krishna with his flute. Above all, he seeks to liberate the individual from his alienation to the machine and restore morality to the productive process.

As we find ourselves in jobless economies, societies in which small minorities consume while the masses starve, we find ourselves forced to rethink the rationale of our current globalization and to ponder the Gandhian alternative.

At a time when Freud was liberating sex, Gandhi was reining it in; when Marx was pitting worker against capitalist, Gandhi was reconciling them; when the dominant European thought had dropped God and soul out of the social reckoning, he was centralizing society in God and soul; at a time when the colonized had ceased to think and control, he dared to think and control; and when the ideologies of the colonized had virtually disappeared, he revived them and empowered them with a potency that liberated and redeemed.

Here is an article from Nobel prize committe website … this is what they thinking Mahatama Gandhi … need i say more … but knowing your attitude to reading written word … will post a little snippet !!!

Mahatma Gandhi, the Missing Laureate

  • Gandhi was nominated in 1937, 1938, 1939, 1947 and, finally, a few days before he was murdered in January 1948. The omission has been publicly regretted by later members of the Nobel Committee; when the Dalai Lama was awarded the Peace Prize in 1989, the chairman of the committee said that this was “in part a tribute to the memory of Mahatma Gandhi”. However, the committee has never commented on the speculations as to why Gandhi was not awarded the prize, and until recently the sources which might shed some light on the matter were unavailable.*

Even a dictator like Musharraf was nominated for Noble peace prize, Vajpayee was nominated and countless others are nominated every year. Nothing special about that.

Has Mohandas Karamchand got the Noble peace prize?

A simple yes or no will do.

From the same link -

Why Was Gandhi Never Awarded the Nobel Peace Prize?

Up to 1960, the Nobel Peace Prize was awarded almost exclusively to Europeans and Americans. In retrospect, the horizon of the Norwegian Nobel Committee may seem too narrow. Gandhi was very different from earlier Laureates. He was no real politician or proponent of international law, not primarily a humanitarian relief worker and not an organiser of international peace congresses. He would have belonged to a new breed of Laureates.

There is no hint in the archives that the Norwegian Nobel Committee ever took into consideration the possibility of an adverse British reaction to an award to Gandhi. Thus it seems that the hypothesis that the Committee's omission of Gandhi was due to its members' not wanting to provoke British authorities, may be rejected.

In 1947 the conflict between India and Pakistan and Gandhi's prayer-meeting statement, which made people wonder whether he was about to abandon his consistent pacifism, seem to have been the primary reasons why he was not selected by the committee's majority. Unlike the situation today, there was no tradition for the Norwegian Nobel Committee to try to use the Peace Prize as a stimulus for peaceful settlement of regional conflicts.

During the last months of his life, Gandhi worked hard to end the violence between Hindus and Muslims which followed the partition of India. We know little about the Norwegian Nobel Committee's discussions on Gandhi's candidature in 1948 – other than the above quoted entry of November 18 in Gunnar Jahn's diary – but it seems clear that they seriously considered a posthumous award. When the committee, for formal reasons, ended up not making such an award, they decided to reserve the prize, and then, one year later, not to spend the prize money for 1948 at all. What many thought should have been Mahatma Gandhi's place on the list of Laureates was silently but respectfully left open.

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The point that got lost on you was about what the Nobel Cmtee thought about Gandhi....:)

You as usual did not read what i had posted ..... no he did not get it .... after all he was not "the" ideal candidate at that time ... he was the one fighting the British !!!!!

That is why ..... the nobel committe expressed its "regrets" about not being able to give him the nobel prize ...... Musharaf was Bush's - you know what :D ... that is why he was promoted.

Again twisting facts to make Mohandas Karamchand something that he is not, LOL.

Rabindranath Tigore a Bengali got Noble in 1913, because he deserved it.

Learn to live with the fact that Noble was not awarded because Mohandas Karamchand was a racist and was considered widely as leader of upper caste hindus.

Everything else is just a wishy washy..

If that was the case ..... then ...... the nobel committe has made up for that ... they have regretted not giving the nobel to Mahatama Gandhi .... guess they realized their mistake - but some people don't . I mean i don't see them exressing regreat to Musharaf for not giving him the Nobel prize :D

Re: Martin L. King & Mahatma Gandhi

Musharaf will be given Bin Laden World Peace Prize sometime in the next few years . . . :smooth:

Mr.Tagore was awarded Nobel Prize fror his contributions in literature world especially `Gitanjali'.

Try again -

Up to 1960, the Nobel **Peace* Prize was awarded almost exclusively to Europeans and Americans.*

And this is from the Nobel Cmtee's website, not from an Indian source ;)

Re: Martin L. King & Mahatma Gandhi

Nobel Committee realized that "Haathi kay daant Khaney kay aur Dhikaney kay aur". That was the case with Mohandas as well.

He was a cunning politician with many colors: racist against blacks, advocating rights of upper caste hindus, while giving an impression that he is a nationalist indian. And then asking Dalits to accept they are born to serve.

He was all peaceful against british, but at the same time all war with Pakistan in 1947 afte independence.

This dude was the most cunning person the world has ever seen. So that is why Nobel peace committe is all silence when they are asked why Mohandas was not given Nobel peace prize. They don't want to offend indians by saying the truth.

There you go again … spoken like a typical … :smiley: . Let us see what the Nobel committe actually says about Mahatama Gandhi …

The Nobel Peace Prize 1989 - Presentation Speech

It would be difficult to cite any historical example of a minority’s struggle to secure its rights, in which a more conciliatory attitude to the adversary has been adopted than in the case of the Dalai Lama. It would be natural to compare him with Mahatma Gandhi, one of this century’s greatest protagonists of peace, and the Dalai Lama likes to consider himself one of Gandhi’s successors. People have occasionally wondered why Gandhi himself was never awarded the Nobel Peace Prize, and the present Nobel Committee can with impunity share this surprise, while regarding this year’s award of the prize as in part a tribute to the memory of Mahatma Gandhi.

Ignorance is bliss :D

I doubt that you are really interested in learning about Gandhi, but if you are - read what the Nobel Cmtee has said.

This is not all that rosy as you would like us to believe. To put it mildly, Nobel Committee is being diplomatic to not hurt the feelings of indians by telling the truth loudly. Some members of the committee wrote something that came into light:

The committee's adviser, professor Jacob Worm-Müller, who wrote a report on Gandhi, was much more critical. On the one hand, he fully understood the general admiration for Gandhi as a person: "He is, undoubtedly, a good, noble and ascetic person – a prominent man who is deservedly honoured and loved by the masses of India." On the other hand, when considering Gandhi as a political leader, the Norwegian professor's description was less favourable. **There are, he wrote, "sharp turns in his policies, which can hardly be satisfactorily explained by his followers. (...) He is a freedom fighter and a dictator, an idealist and a nationalist. He is frequently a Christ, but then, suddenly, an ordinary politician."**

Gandhi had many critics in the international peace movement. The Nobel Committee adviser referred to these critics in maintaining that **he was not consistently pacifist, that he should have known that some of his non-violent campaigns towards the British would degenerate into violence and terror. This was something that had happened during the first Non-Cooperation Campaign in 1920-1921, e.g. when a crowd in Chauri Chaura, the United Provinces, attacked a police station, killed many of the policemen and then set fire to the police station.

A frequent criticism from non-Indians was also that Gandhi was too much of an Indian nationalist. In his report, Professor Worm-Müller expressed his own doubts as to whether Gandhi's ideals were meant to be universal or primarily Indian: "One might say that it is significant that his well-known struggle in South Africa was on behalf of the Indians only, and not of the blacks whose living conditions were even worse."

And mind you, this report is very mild and it did not speak about the racism of Mohandas, which I think should have told in clear words as well. But being diplomatic sometimes saves you many troubles...

Mohandas was a cunning man of many colors.

So they are beimg diplomatic ..... not to hurt the feelings of Indians .... after almost 40 years !!!!!

Please read what the nobel committe chairman said in his speech ..... in hindesight they relaize they made a mistake .... but then to understand that you have to have an open mind and able to comprehend what is written. This is a quality missing in you know where :D

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Again your attempt to malign a world respected leader has failed miserably ...... you have to understand you cannot grow by showing other down .... your "leader" will not be get more respect if you show another down .... you can make as many movies as you like .... leaders are respected and loved because of their actions and words. By posting such things things you are not only shaming yourself but even your country. Learn to respect people ......

There would have been mention of it in the report if there was something ... so you yourself now agree there was no mention of racism here :D

Any great man (saint/prophet/leader) is bound to have his critics. Heck, there are people who do not believe in God. While critics are free to have their opinion, the greatness of these leaders/prophets etc lies in how many lives they influenced and what positive change they brought about :)

I completely understand that you do not want to believe that Mohandas was a racist, because all your life you have been told fairy tales about him.

But does that change the truth? NO.

Mohandas hated black people and his hatred was visible in his speeches, his writings and letters and above all in his deeds.

Again..you are free to believe whatever you want to, but that does not change the reality.

Mohandas was a racist of first degree against black people. Go search for truth and evidence!

See that is the difference ... what i was told ... is from world over ... from India, US, UK. South Africa, Europe, United Nations, Nobel committe ..... so i do believe that. This represents the civlized world we are talking about ..... now you have Dr. Singh on your side .... you decide who has the truth on his side :D

Re: Martin L. King & Mahatma Gandhi

^^ Not Dr. Singh, but the written evidence of Mohandas' racial slurs against black people.

After reading those with open mind, one can judege for oneself what kind of person Mohandas was.

I invite you to read those as well.

After all, we are not always told the truth... Weapons of mass destruction and Iraq? rings a bell?

Here is a question for you -

We are also told that Islam is a religion of peace. Should we believe that, since facts on the ground do not seem to support that ?

One can chose to use selective evidence to support one's beliefs or use intelligence and get multiple data points. The choice is yours :)