what are your experiences with them? especially in planning the wedding. were they integrated traditions or separate occasions? how did the person fit in with the family? where they for or against the coupling?
Re: marriages to non-pakistanis
i am married to a gora. we integrated traditions from both cultures into our wedding and everything went very smoothly on the day of AH :)
Re: marriages to non-pakistanis
we have two marriages in our family that were with people other than pakis. my uncle married a caucasian american, shes one of the nicest and caring women i know. my immediate family loves her, but my uncles immediate family are just ok with her. she cant really speak with my uncles step mom because she doesnt know english and my aunt doesnt speak urdu, though she had been dating my uncle for about 8 yrs so she understands urdu most of the time. in family gatherings she usually doesnt converse with anyone except the kids cuz all the ladies speak in urdu with each other so shes left out, i feel bad for her, usually i sit with her and talk to her.
the other marriage is my aunt married an albanian muslim man. hes nice also, everyone gets along with him, he doesnt understand urdu but my aunt married him when she was 31 yrs old and by that time everyone, specially her dad (my grandfather) just wanted her to get married. im sure her father just wanted her to marry any male as long as he wasnt black (and im not being racist).
Re: marriages to non-pakistanis
that's really lovely of you sumo, to care for your aunt like that!
i can appreciate it because sometimes the hubby's family will forget i dont speak hungarian and they're such a rowdy bunch that they get all excited and just switch to it. i've finally caught on about speaking UP if i want them to translate or speak english!
ours is not the only inter-cultural wedding in the family so i guess thats why we're ok with it. my mom has several cousins married to goras and i guess some of the next generation is also following through. its an interesting mix and everyone has been very welcome generally speaking!
I'm a white American and my fiance was born in Pakistan, moved to the US with his family as a teenager. I studied Arabic in college and grad school, lived in the Middle East, and converted a little under two years ago shortly after I first met my fiance. I had been talking to my family for years about possibly converting, so by the time I did it they were not surprised or upset and I had had a lot of time to explain Islam to them so they would feel comfortable. They love my fiance and are very welcoming, have no issues whatsoever. I am close to my sis and usually our family goes to her house for Christian/American holidays like Thanksgiving and Christmas. She has been so great, she even stopped making a ham since I converted, which has always been part of my family's holiday menu along with turkey; even though I told her to go ahead and make her ham---I'm happy with my veggies and bread and some turkey! Most of my family members don't drink at all and never have, and we have a close-knit, modest, family-oriented culture so I haven't had any major transitional issues with them.
With the Fiance it's been a little trickier because he definitely comes from a very religious, traditional Pakistani background. But in the end his family has been great. They are very sweet, I've become pretty close to one of his sisters, and his brothers are all wonderful as well. I love his parents and don't think that treating them as my own will be a problem. They are definitely more high maintenance and expect more say/involvement in everything, which can be hard to reconcile, but I have a good temperament for negotiation and compromise so insha'allah this won't be a huge issue.
The wedding itself has been trickier to plan for. My family is very easy going and is fine with having whatever kind of ceremony we want. But in the interest of honoring them and making them feel comfortable I have tried to integrate some American elements into our wedding planning, and that's been somewhat uncomfortable for the Pakistani side as they have no exposure to American wedding traditions; I think it can be hard for them to accept things that are not cut-and-dry halal or haram (like an exchange of rings, with the understanding that it's not an Islamic requirement) or cut-and-dry Pakistani. For example, we're planning on holding the reception and dinner in an American restaurant. The wedding will be dry (no alcohol), and the restaurant will be using all halal meat and will incorporate some Middle Eastern and Pakistani foods into the menu (biryani is one of our entree choices.) But I think they're not used to the concept of having a mixed menu, are afraid that the extended family will complain, etc., etc. So it's a bit of a headache. It has been a bit disappointing to plan something I was at first very excited about, and to find that there is a lot of nitpicking---spoils the happiness a little bit. :(
I think mixed weddings/marriages can go either way. It just depends on the 'personality' of each family. In our case I think my side has been somewhat easier to negotiate than my fiance's, but some couples have no problems, have problems for both sides, or have problems from the non-pakistani side.
Re: marriages to non-pakistanis
My moms brother - My mamu married a hispanic lady. He left pakistan when he was 15 to be able to support his family after the death of my grandfather. He had the responsiblity, being the oldest to get all three of his sisters married and settled. So he came to the United States. While in High school he met my Aunt. They knew each other all thoughout high school and later decided to get married. My grandmother never said no because my aunt converted and became an excellent Muslim. She prays namaz more than we do, wakes up for fajr even if she slept at 3 and has been on Hajj several times.
Beacause my grandmother was in pakistan, they had a very taditional American wedding without the liqour ofcourse.
Mashallah se they have been married 25 or 26 some years. :)
Gosh, I love this thread!
It's so refreshing to hear about all these beautiful storys of interracial relationships. Many pakistani parents (and sometimes even the younger ones) can be so judgemental...and some of them are just plain racists!
I have 4 friends who are married to non-pakis (Albanian, Egyptian, Amerian and British) and their husbands are such nice and gentle souls.
My Mamu came to US around 25 yrs back and I guess he married immediately to a American Caucasian woman from Georgia after converting her with a new islamic name. They kept the marriage secret till 1 year and then revealed it to the family after the birth of first child. The immediate reaction was not so good but later everyone accepted that very well, greeted my mami with open hearts.
Upon thier first visit to Pakistan immediately after getting the marriage news opened, my Mami started learning urdu. I remember there were some people from my family who used to gossip that she may not be able to live forever and leave. But she really showed her dedication to learn the culture, values, religion and language.
They went back and then came again and tried to settle in Pakistan. Unfortunately things couldnt work out so they had to go back within 2 years.
Now after so many years they are still together. They have 5 grown up kids, with a grand daughter and grand son as well. All kids speak very fluent urdu and are very well versed with Islam :)
My mami still tries to speak urdu with us ...though she makes very funny mistakes like "men jaegi" (i'll go) or "Badar gai hai" (Badar, his husband, has gone)
I love this family!!
Re: marriages to non-pakistanis
I know someone who married non-pakistani(filipino), she is having a hard time learning urdu and she says she will teach their children her own language and not urdu. This isnt going well with the guys family. Just wanted to ask which language should the children(of mix nationalities parents) speak when parents themselves talk in english ??
Re: marriages to non-pakistanis
just to point something out...
*all the older men (45 and above) with non desi wives in our community here, have kids who are more gora than goras...all have american names.....with absolutely no interest in desi culture/language/people etc...and have all married americans...
*the young girls of our generation who married goras have young bilingual kids...and we see them in masjid etc....(whereas guys who married american girls fall in the same scenario as the older men mentioned above)
just an observation.
To the question about kids and other cultural and religious issues---here's what my fiance and I have discussed and agreed upon:
1) Religion: Kids will obviously be Muslim as both of us are Muslim. We observe the five daily prayers and all other required aspects, and this will be the practice and not optional in our home. I've expressed to my fiance that values like modesty, being conservative regarding relationships with the opposite gender, etc., should apply equally to both sons and daughters---I don't like how I've seen daughters in many immigrant Muslim families in the US bear all the expectations while the sons run wild. We have selected names we would like, and they are all Muslim/Arabic names but most of them are also names that are familiar or sound similar to English names (Samar/Summer, Sonia, Amin, etc.)
2) Language: We speak English together. I am learning Urdu, but fiance is very adamant that Urdu skills are not important to him---he's much more concerned about children learning Arabic. I studied Arabic for many years and lived in the Middle East so this won't be a problem, and we will also send kids to weekend classes at the masjid for Arabic, tajweed, halaqa, etc. However, his parents will most likely live with us and as they speak exclusively Urdu between themselves and their kids I expect that both me and my children will pick up at least some elementary skills.
3) Country of residence: We're very happy in the US. I do not expect this to change. I am excited to visit Pakistan for vacations, meeting extended family, but neither of us has an interest in living there. We have discussed, however, possibly looking into moving to the Khaleej, maybe UAE, for a few years to experience a different life.
4) Overall my fiance is concerned that our kids will have a solid Muslim identity; national identity is secondary. I think he would like them to have some pride in their Pakistani heritage, but he equally agrees that they should understand the rich cultural heritage on my side as well.
Re: marriages to non-pakistanis
What wonderful stories and what a refreshing thread!
On other message boards, i have seen bilingual parents teach their kids both languages, where the mother only speaks to the child in her langugae and the father in his. This way they can master both languages at the same time.
Re: marriages to non-pakistanis
^ yeah, thats how i've seen it too... for instance, one of my aunts is persian and her kids fully speak and understand english, urdu and persian.
Re: marriages to non-pakistanis
Yep Ira, My husband and I speak to each other in urdu, english and french, so our daughters are being taught those 3... and eventually many other languages i hope :)
Re: marriages to non-pakistanis
My aunt speaks to her daughter in urdu and english and her husband speaks to the daughter in albanian and english. so i guess she will learn atleast 3 languages.
Re: marriages to non-pakistanis
Learning 2-3 languages while growing up.....wont it be a burden on a child. But i always feel a child will learn what a mother teaches.
Re: marriages to non-pakistanis
a burden? hardly! children pick up languages like its second nature to them (as opposed to most adults) and if its a parental language that is spoken often to them, it will be second nature.
Re: marriages to non-pakistanis
maroush thats just awesome! Your little girls knowing french, english and urdu.
living, how is knowing more than one langugage confusing? Kids are a lot smarter than we give them credit for. Living in dubai surely you must see kids speaking both english/urdu and arabic?
Re: marriages to non-pakistanis
A burden?!?! It is one of the best things you can do for a child. not only are you increasing their language skills, you are enabling them up to understand different cultures, societies etc.... and before the age of 6 is when a child can absorb the most information with ease. :)
Yes, kids learn amazingly fast. My cousins' mom (dad's brother's wife) is Hungarian, and they never had a problem speaking Hungarian and English fluently plus becoming fluent in both Russian and German through schooling...
Even looking at my own fiance---he was born in Pakistan and speaks both Urdu and Punjabi fluently and also has better English than many Americans. It's all about opportunities to be exposed to the language, and the younger they start, the better!