Marriage

[Santiago_TheShepherd]

I happen to know a friend who has two kids and lives in Canada. He is Alhamdullillah happily married, some days ago, he called me and casually mentioned that he loves his family to death and he himself, is very religious person mindful of his responsibilities, as much as I know him. The thing that he he is a little worried about his temptation or his urge to have a second partner in his life. He doesn't want to give anything that he has now just to have a second wife i.e. having a nikkah to a widow, an infertile woman or a woman who is in need of a partner (obviously under the table). Now my question is, people around us have stayed in unfaithful marriages, then why is it okay for some women to have husbands who cheat on regular basis vs having husbands that wish to be married to someone else too. Just a little perspective, he is a gem of a person professionally and socially and MashaAllah the vibe you get from his beautiful family is amazing.

P.S. Just a request, please don't cancel me on bringing that topic up.

[decentGuy]

I’m quoting myself here from another thread:

@""decentGuy""

There are several cultural reasons for that push back.

1- Muslims who have grown up in countries where polygamy is forbidden by law haven’t witnessed any concurrent marriages in their community so they don’t really grasp the concept. Historically speaking, monogamy has never existed in human societies. Societies with absolute prohibitions are a historical anomaly, not the norm.

2- More important thing is, since it is outlawed in the countries where these people live, therefore, considering its benefits only increases cognitive dissonance so why support something one couldn’t benefit from anyway.

3- Many men in a position to get a second wife find it much easier to divorce their first wife so they are not bothered by her later on.

In my opinion, FWIW, the real choice is never between monogamy and polygamy, rather it is between marriage and extramarital relations. We all know of men who are married and develop mutual interest with another woman. Countries where polygamy is outlawed, there is no option for those men but to divorce the first wife to be able to marry again. Or continue onward forming extramarital relations.

​

[aqua70]

Bechara friend of yours and his struggle of self-control. His wife should be oh so grateful, he wants to marry someone and not just have an affair, someone hot though, none of the undesirables. After all, look at all these women who stay in marriages where their husbands are not faithful, not like we live in a society where divorced women are looked down upon or anything. Since the women stay, they are just asking for it. The men's hands are tied! They have no choice but to be unfaithful.. damn these societies and their ban on polygamy. What a cruel world. Woe to the men, the nobles, the gems.

[Exoduss]

@""aqua70""

Bechara friend of yours and his struggle of self-control. His wife should be oh so grateful, he wants to marry someone and not just have an affair, someone hot though, none of the undesirables. After all, look at all these women who stay in marriages where their husbands are not faithful, not like we live in a society where divorced women are looked down upon or anything. Since the women stay, they are just asking for it. The men’s hands are tied! They have no choice but to be unfaithful.. damn these societies and their ban on polygamy. What a cruel world. Woe to the men, the nobles, the gems.

So here’s the thing. I have a queue of questions I’ve lined up to ask God. Say for example; if he considered himself a feminist. Perhaps, you could ask him to explain it to you why men have been allowed four wives? The question has all the merits to be asked, by all means

Would you rather choose a man who openly discusses his urges with you, or someone who goes around cheating behind your back?

As has been said before, appreciate people tryna open up to you instead of cancelling them out

One man and his urges do not speak for all existing men!

[Exoduss]

[quote=““Santiago TheShepherd””]
I happen to know a friend who has two kids and lives in Canada. He is Alhamdullillah happily married, some days ago, he called me and casually mentioned that he loves his family to death and he himself, is very religious person mindful of his responsibilities, as much as I know him. The thing that he he is a little worried about his temptation or his urge to have a second partner in his life. He doesn’t want to give anything that he has now just to have a second wife i.e. having a nikkah to a widow, an infertile woman or a woman who is in need of a partner (obviously under the table). Now my question is, people around us have stayed in unfaithful marriages, then why is it okay for some women to have husbands who cheat on regular basis vs having husbands that wish to be married to someone else too. Just a little perspective, he is a gem of a person professionally and socially and MashaAllah the vibe you get from his beautiful family is amazing.
[/quote]

As much as I get where your friend is coming from knowing about all the niceness and successes revolving around him. It still is a tough pill to swallow for any individual to picture their partner wanting a second one

Would you or your friend be okay if your wife wanted the same under the exact same pretext or circumstances? I’d bet my car on a straight up no if you asked him

[Santiago_TheShepherd]

@""aqua70""

Bechara friend of yours and his struggle of self-control. His wife should be oh so grateful, he wants to marry someone and not just have an affair, someone hot though, none of the undesirables. After all, look at all these women who stay in marriages where their husbands are not faithful, not like we live in a society where divorced women are looked down upon or anything. Since the women stay, they are just asking for it. The men’s hands are tied! They have no choice but to be unfaithful.. damn these societies and their ban on polygamy. What a cruel world. Woe to the men, the nobles, the gems.

Dekhiye!! Hot or not I don’t know but… It’s actually a simple question of mindset, we are talking about a society here that has the highest divorce rate, and highest single-parent situation and one of the leading causes of divorce is infidelity, mostly from men so I may not need advice on healthy marriages and good families from a society that has succumbed to fascist liberalism. The percentage of women who stay married to unfaithful men knowing that their husband cheats is also high and my question addresses them, and allow me to elaborate, please. A man who cheats is disrespectful to two women, the woman he has the obligation to be faithful towards i.e. his wife, and the other woman who he shouldn’t even be looking at. Those women will accept being disrespected not because they don’t want to share their husband but because they don’t want the other women to be respected on an equal basis.

The ban on polygamy is mostly reduced to documentation otherwise, there are polyamorous couples too, so many of them I don’t see Gestapo knocking on their doors.

[Santiago_TheShepherd]

@""Exoduss""

So here’s the thing. I have a queue of questions I’ve lined up to ask God. Say for example; if he considered himself a feminist. Perhaps, you could ask him to explain it to you why men have been allowed four wives? The question has all the merits to be asked, by all means

Would you rather choose a man who openly discusses his urges with you, or someone who goes around cheating behind your back?

As has been said before, appreciate people tryna open up to you instead of cancelling them out

One man and his urges do not speak for all existing men!

Appreciate the tone of your message.

As for asking questions to God, I think it is time that we must examine the relationship between the creator and the creation. So I may not even dare to question Him on a man-made ideology but hey, if you want to meet your creator to question and judge Him, who has designed, manufactured, and maintained this complex mechanism that keeps this amazing universe and beyond going, I’ll leave this up to your judgment. The relationship of the creator and creation to me is that he knows me because he brought me to this world through a process, if I try to stay close to Him through his manufacturing manual i.e his revelations, I will not get lost just like a child stay close to his parents.

As for the question of four wives, men have been allowed to take up to four wives but they have not been obligated to do this.

Quran Chapter Nisa 4:3. If you fear you cannot act fairly towards the orphans—then marry the women you like—two, or three, or four. But if you fear you will not be fair, then one, or what you already have. That makes it more likely that you avoid injustice.
​

[Santiago_TheShepherd]

@""Exoduss""

As much as I get where your friend is coming from knowing about all the niceness and successes revolving around him. It still is a tough pill to swallow for any individual to picture their partner wanting a second one

Would you or your friend be okay if your wife wanted the same under the exact same pretext or circumstances? I’d bet my car on a straight up no if you asked him

It will not be okay at all because first, it is not sanctioned and second, it has never been a practice for women to take multiple husbands in our 200,000-year-old history, at least not documented. Even wives who have cheated on their husbands or those who look towards other men will never ask to marry another man at the same time but men who have desires to look outside their first marriage, they will ask for a second or a third marriage at least good ones will, since cheating is not an option for them.

[Exoduss]

[quote=““Santiago TheShepherd””]

Dekhiye!! Hot or not I don’t know but… It’s actually a simple question of mindset, we are talking about a society here that has the highest divorce rate, and highest single-parent situation and one of the leading causes of divorce is infidelity, mostly from men so I may not need advice on healthy marriages and good families from a society that has succumbed to fascist liberalism. The percentage of women who stay married to unfaithful men knowing that their husband cheats is also high and my question addresses them, and allow me to elaborate, please. A man who cheats is disrespectful to two women, the woman he has the obligation to be faithful towards i.e. his wife, and the other woman who he shouldn’t even be looking at. Those women will accept being disrespected not because they don’t want to share their husband but because they don’t want the other women to be respected on an equal basis.

The ban on polygamy is mostly reduced to documentation otherwise, there are polyamorous couples too, so many of them I don’t see Gestapo knocking on their doors.
[/quote]

Pardon my obvious as always ignorance but who do you refer to here as the society with the most divorce rates?
You must know if she’s hot or not though! :D​

[Exoduss]

[quote=““Santiago TheShepherd””]

Appreciate the tone of your message.

As for asking questions to God, I think it is time that we must examine the relationship between the creator and the creation. So I may not even dare to question Him on a man-made ideology but hey, if you want to meet your creator to question and judge Him, who has designed, manufactured, and maintained this complex mechanism that keeps this amazing universe and beyond going, I’ll leave this up to your judgment. The relationship of the creator and creation to me is that he knows me because he brought me to this world through a process, if I try to stay close to Him through his manufacturing manual i.e his revelations, I will not get lost just like a child stay close to his parents.

As for the question of four wives, men have been allowed to take up to four wives but they have not been obligated to do this.

Quran Chapter Nisa 4:3. If you fear you cannot act fairly towards the orphans—then marry the women you like—two, or three, or four. But if you fear you will not be fair, then one, or what you already have. That makes it more likely that you avoid injustice.
​
[/quote]

Pretty much the point I try and make here, kind sir. You all will be sitting like ducks nodding when the inquisitive in me will just go pop up with a legitimate question stealing his highness’s attention. Next thing you know he thinks I’m special and I go take seat on the king’s side

If he is to judge then why has it been so hard for the less privileged Muslims to understand how it is just not right to take other peoples lives in the name of all the diddly dam diddly dos the victims were allegedly found guilty of? On one side in the book you’re not to judge, while on the other you’re encouraged to kill whoever that goes on to disrespect your religion

Why must Palestine and Kashmir continue to suffer. Why must Afghanistan always be in the midst of war because some verse in the Quran says it will always be in a state of war. Why do women have 70% rights whilst men only have a meager 30% when it comes to human race?

Was his idea of offering men four wives just an act of deception to show the world how some of these muslim men weren’t as loyal as had been expected? Basically it isn’t like he cant think of tricks and treats himself to be able to judge his men. Almost all of the men I know who took the multiple marriages route ended up being more miserable than they were before, moreover most of them also lost their rights to their children in the process. Go figure

There is a thing called loyalty, and it obviously goes both ways I’d wager. Dou raatoun ki chandni aur zindagi bhar ka azaab. Aage aapki marzi, sanu ki!
​

[Exoduss]

[quote=““Santiago TheShepherd””]

It will not be okay at all because first, it is not sanctioned and second, it has never been a practice for women to take multiple husbands in our 200,000-year-old history, at least not documented. Even wives who have cheated on their husbands or those who look towards other men will never ask to marry another man at the same time but men who have desires to look outside their first marriage, they will ask for a second or a third marriage at least good ones will, since cheating is not an option for them.
[/quote]

That’s probably why women cheat, because apparently you see men have been allowed four when they only get to have that one bear hugging a belly full of fat crocodiles. While she puffed up because she carried his babies..

Women in your own words have proven to be less of the cheaters in the said society. So lettuce just assume how men were supposed to be the solid heads tolerant of all the ills society or the opposite gender had to offer them with, shouldn’t they be the ones accepting of their wives bringing in three different husbands then?

Your friend isn’t after a divorcee with kids, is he? Pretty much defeats the purpose of what the verse says in the Quran​

[Santiago_TheShepherd]

@""Exoduss""

Pardon my obvious as always ignorance but who do you refer to here as the society with the most divorce rates?
You must know if she’s hot or not though! :D​

Western society that succumbed to the liberal world order, in general and north American in particular.

[Santiago_TheShepherd]

@""Exoduss""

Pretty much the point I try and make here, kind sir. You all will be sitting like ducks nodding when the inquisitive in me will just go pop up with a legitimate question stealing his highness’s attention. Next thing you know he thinks I’m special and I go take seat on the king’s side

If he is to judge then why has it been so hard for the less privileged Muslims to understand how it is just not right to take other peoples lives in the name of all the diddly dam diddly dos the victims were allegedly found guilty of? On one side in the book you’re not to judge, while on the other you’re encouraged to kill whoever that goes on to disrespect your religion

Why must Palestine and Kashmir continue to suffer. Why must Afghanistan always be in the midst of war because some verse in the Quran says it will always be in a state of war. Why do women have 70% rights whilst men only have a meager 30% when it comes to human race?

Was his idea of offering men four wives just an act of deception to show the world how some of these muslim men weren’t as loyal as had been expected? Basically it isn’t like he cant think of tricks and treats himself to be able to judge his men. Almost all of the men I know who took the multiple marriages route ended up being more miserable than they were before, moreover most of them also lost their rights to their children in the process. Go figure

There is a thing called loyalty, and it obviously goes both ways I’d wager. Dou raatoun ki chandni aur zindagi bhar ka azaab. Aage aapki marzi, sanu ki!
​

I think there’s a way that you may want to look at an ideology, political, religious or social, and there’s nothing wrong with being inquisitive or critical, in fact we human beings are blessed with this intrinsic behavior’s to question our surrounding or what we have been led to believe! If you’re looking for answers, I am sure there will always be answers but if you’re looking just to slander or stain a message just because it is easier to do so, then dear, there I am afraid there will be no end to that discussion. A very dear friend of mine used to used to say, you can wake up a person who is sound asleep but you may never be able to do so who is just pretending to be asleep with his or her eyes closed.

While we’re discussing the difference between slandering and being critical, where does it say in the Book, that ordinary people have the right to take other’s life because of their actions or beliefs? or Afghanistan will always be in a state of war? As for Palestine and Kashmir, there’s​ enough people in those two states who have betrayed the cause of their own people, the issue of Hamas and Fatah, the likes of Farooq Abdullah and Mehbooba Mufti! It’s more political than religious and it’s God’s decree you get what you strive for, in one way or another.

As for quantifying the rights of men and women, what other religion gives women more rights and protection? Laws of Inheritance, sustenance from MEN, protection. You talk about the rights of men and what about their duties, to provide for the entire family, to protect the family and people around him with his life or die trying, to be in-charge of the well-being of people in a household..

I think you may want to read the verse again which I cited above, it clearly says be content with one IF you’re afraid you won’t do justice with more. If you’re talking about the institution of marriage itself look at the stats of marriage stability in countries where polygamy is legal vs countries where it is banned and you may to use my friend, Google on what is the leading cause of accelerating divorce rates in the west.

[Santiago_TheShepherd]

@""Exoduss""

That’s probably why women cheat, because apparently you see men have been allowed four when they only get to have that one bear hugging a belly full of fat crocodiles. While she puffed up because she carried his babies..

Women in your own words have proven to be less of the cheaters in the said society. So lettuce just assume how men were supposed to be the solid heads tolerant of all the ills society or the opposite gender had to offer them with, shouldn’t they be the ones accepting of their wives bringing in three different husbands then?

Your friend isn’t after a divorcee with kids, is he? Pretty much defeats the purpose of what the verse says in the Quran​

As far as my personal experience is concerned, I have know only one woman who cheated on her husband but only because his husband hasn’t been home in 2 - 3 years, while he was working in the middle east but I have never ever heard from my friends or their friends or from any other women that they have ever craved of having another husband. More than 50 percent of my friends have cheated on their spouses on regular basis muslims and non-muslims both, and from the other 50 percent, almost 20-30 percent have wanted to have more than one spouses. I guess these sats whould give you the answer to why men have never said no to women bringing up more husbands because IT has never happened.

As for my friend, he doesn’t have a particular person in his mind. He only brought it up because he has been having weird feelings about a second partner or spouse and he said, if the time comes he will discuss that with his wife.

[Exoduss]

[quote=““Santiago TheShepherd””]

I think there’s a way that you may want to look at an ideology, political, religious or social, and there’s nothing wrong with being inquisitive or critical, in fact we human beings are blessed with this intrinsic behavior’s to question our surrounding or what we have been led to believe! If you’re looking for answers, I am sure there will always be answers but if you’re looking just to slander or stain a message just because it is easier to do so, then dear, there I am afraid there will be no end to that discussion. A very dear friend of mine used to used to say, you can wake up a person who is sound asleep but you may never be able to do so who is just pretending to be asleep with his or her eyes closed.

While we’re discussing the difference between slandering and being critical, where does it say in the Book, that ordinary people have the right to take other’s life because of their actions or beliefs? or Afghanistan will always be in a state of war? As for Palestine and Kashmir, there’s​ enough people in those two states who have betrayed the cause of their own people, the issue of Hamas and Fatah, the likes of Farooq Abdullah and Mehbooba Mufti! It’s more political than religious and it’s God’s decree you get what you strive for, in one way or another.

As for quantifying the rights of men and women, what other religion gives women more rights and protection? Laws of Inheritance, sustenance from MEN, protection. You talk about the rights of men and what about their duties, to provide for the entire family, to protect the family and people around him with his life or die trying, to be in-charge of the well-being of people in a household..

I think you may want to read the verse again which I cited above, it clearly says be content with one IF you’re afraid you won’t do justice with more. If you’re talking about the institution of marriage itself look at the stats of marriage stability in countries where polygamy is legal vs countries where it is banned and you may to use my friend, Google on what is the leading cause of accelerating divorce rates in the west.

[/quote]

Talk about being thrown under the bus..

The reasoning for multiple wives accounts for what though? To provide for widowed/non child bearing/orphaned women, or be used as toys for sexual needs? Secondly, i’m assuming the husband needs to ask for his wife’s permission to remarry? What if she responds with a no, can the husband continue to pester her with the same question over and over again?

Are there children involved? I’m hoping your friend is aware of the negative impact this whole situation brings in for them. Statistics prove children almost always are on the losing end in such scenarios

Last but certainly not the least (fun intended), how does your friend plan on dealing with their mood swings twice in a single month? Since he is bound to give them equal time/money/respect so on and so forth at all times :D​

[decentGuy]

<<< That is a completely wrong way of thinking about having multiple wives.

1- Marriage is for "sexual needs" foremost. If that need is not being satisfied despite being married then it is a big problem. In fact Islam teaches men to inquire about beauty before inquiring about piousness of a woman. It's not about dazzling beauty, but acceptable beauty that looking at her would make him feel happy. Nor it is about ignoring her piousness and other qualities.

2- Lots of men would want to have an additional wife, but most married men get rejected by women because the woman gets to decide if the married man can indeed afford her as well.

3- No permission from wife is needed. Most wives would not want their husbands to marry someone else. Therefore, it is necessary for a man to do so in the kindest manner possible so feelings of his wife takes minimal hit. A word of caution now. I have seen men who did not act the kindest toward their existing wives while or after getting married to a new woman, had such tragedies happen to them that it was a lesson for those who paid attention. Case of Amir Liaqat is one of them. The day he divorced his 1st wife to please his 2nd wife, his downfall started.

4- Many marriages have been saved due to 2nd marriage. For example, cases where 1st wife got some long term health issue.

5- Societies that accept multiple concurrent marriages do not have negative impact on children. I played with children while growing up who came from such families and absolutely no one had any issue with that because it is not considered any different. Those children grew up and got married like rest of us.

Western ideology sees every individual as a building block of society, hence tries more to protect rights of individuals, sometimes at the cost of families. But Islam sees a family as a building block of society, hence tries more to protect rights of families, sometimes at the cost of individuals. A very different approach for very different results.

[krash]

It's number 3 that I always have a problem with. It is completely unjust to the first wife.

[decentGuy]

^^ Your comment reminded me of an important characteristic that married men should have and those having more than one wife must have, and that characteristic is of standing up for their own rights which are granted by Allah. Most married men who have just one wife would have heard objections that he is "completely unjust" to her as well. As long as a married man knows that he is not overstepping the limits set by Allah, a married man should be able to stand his ground.

[Exoduss]

@""decentGuy""

<<< That is a completely wrong way of thinking about having multiple wives.

1- Marriage is for “sexual needs” foremost. If that need is not being satisfied despite being married then it is a big problem. In fact Islam teaches men to inquire about beauty before inquiring about piousness of a woman. It’s not about dazzling beauty, but acceptable beauty that looking at her would make him feel happy. Nor it is about ignoring her piousness and other qualities.

2- Lots of men would want to have an additional wife, but most married men get rejected by women because the woman gets to decide if the married man can indeed afford her as well.

3- No permission from wife is needed. Most wives would not want their husbands to marry someone else. Therefore, it is necessary for a man to do so in the kindest manner possible so feelings of his wife takes minimal hit. A word of caution now. I have seen men who did not act the kindest toward their existing wives while or after getting married to a new woman, had such tragedies happen to them that it was a lesson for those who paid attention. Case of Amir Liaqat is one of them. The day he divorced his 1st wife to please his 2nd wife, his downfall started.

4- Many marriages have been saved due to 2nd marriage. For example, cases where 1st wife got some long term health issue.

5- Societies that accept multiple concurrent marriages do not have negative impact on children. I played with children while growing up who came from such families and absolutely no one had any issue with that because it is not considered any different. Those children grew up and got married like rest of us.

Western ideology sees every individual as a building block of society, hence tries more to protect rights of individuals, sometimes at the cost of families. But Islam sees a family as a building block of society, hence tries more to protect rights of families, sometimes at the cost of individuals. A very different approach for very different results.

I fail to believe re-marrying solely for sexual needs is encouraged in Islam. Care to share a verse corroborating the said claim?

Straight up high-fives to all the women who wouldn’t risk themselves for somebody who clearly had his first wife disappointed

This was always a half baked question starting from the get go, considering the OP did not state if the first wife has had any health or wealth issues, or I guess any of the sorts for him to justify tryna go down the aisle twice. Apparently the only thing he made sure to mention was how his so called friend has had a perfectly functional family as of now

I know a number of children who were traumatized when told their father brought home a new mum. Some of them were bullied all the way starting from pre-school. One way this might’ve worked for a few was when they kept their extra affairs a secret, end well it still never did for most though. If y’all choose to be cool with your mothers having a second competition who often than not is also half her age? Sure. I personally would never be comfortable with the schit-show this whole situation brings in. Good on you all for being so tolerant..

@""krash""

It’s number 3 that I always have a problem with. It is completely unjust to the first wife.

How is life like being number two? Technically things shouldn’t be all that bad if the first agrees to welcoming a third..

[decentGuy]

@""Exoduss""

I fail to believe re-marrying solely for sexual needs is encouraged in Islam. Care to share a verse corroborating the said claim?
…
I know a number of children who were traumatized when told their father brought home a new mum.

Islam makes no distinction among 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th marriage in terms of reasons, rights or responsibilities. It only caps the number of concurrent wives at 4 and being fair in distribution. So if satisfaction of sexual needs is the foremost motivation for 1st marriage, it is the foremost motivation for 2nd, 3rd and 4th marriage as well.

Most likely you have seen it in movies because it would be so rare that children got traumatized by the father’s new wife in the presence of children’s mother, who is married and living with the father already. Anyway, I do see your point there. That trauma is far less than the trauma of children whose parents are divorced. If we go by western ideology, in order to get the new wife, children’s father must divorce children’s mother first.