Marri ready to negotiate on behalf of BLA only

[pak-one]

Always been a defender of rights of oppressed nations, even Pashtuns when they get the short end of the stick. You on the other hand are just confused.

This forum is littered with your racist and anti-Pakistani invectives. You are hardly qualified to speak for yourself much less any 'oppressed' group.

How am I confused? By stating that Baluchis have been mistreated by all Pakistanis, not just punjabis? By calling for reconciliation and move forward as stronger united Pakistan?

You are such a coward that you post divisive articles and then hide under "I did not write it" excuses. You don't have anything constructive to say, just impicit messages of hate and racism.

[pak-one]

No that IS NOT what I am suggesting. I am saying that our good friend who is a known Altaf supporter is gleefully publicizing Marri's statement that he wants Punjabis to leave Balochistan. In response I am telling him that more than a few groups (including Balochis) but especially Sindhis say the same to muhajirs about Karachi - so he should be careful when he decides to publicize intolerance. That knife cuts both ways. But I wouldn't expect any differently from an MQM walla.

That is right. All provinces of Pakistan have significant minorities. Only narrow minded anti-Pakistanis like Keh. would enjoy the increase of intolerance.

Lets move beyond this hate. Asking Punjabis to leave Baluchistan, or warnings about the Pakhtun invasion of Karachi are nothing more than diversionary tactics by politicians to secure their constituency.

[ravage]

Re: Marri ready to negotiate on behalf of BLA only

Khehkeshan, would you say urdu speaking people colonized sindh? why is it wrong for Punjabies to apply their enterprise in Balochistan?

[Khehkeshan]

@ravage

Khehkeshan, would you say urdu speaking people colonized sindh? why is it wrong for Punjabies to apply their enterprise in Balochistan?

Difference is and sindhis themselves admit this, that once mohajirs settled in Sindh (Because of Pakistan and we argue about if Pakistan was the right idea or not blater), we don't send back our money to India, we don't run businesses that benefit India, we don't bury are dead in India. We live and die in Sindh now, unlike most of the other outsiders in Sindh and Balochistan.

[ravage]

@Khehkeshan

Difference is and sindhis themselves admit this, that once mohajirs settled in Sindh (Because of Pakistan and we argue about if Pakistan was the right idea or not blater), we don't send back our money to India, we don't run businesses that benefit India, we don't bury are dead in India. We live and die in Sindh now, unlike most of the other outsiders in Sindh and Balochistan.

answer me this: are urdu speaking people considered colonizers by Sindhi nationalists? if so, then whatever caveats you come up with are meaningless. a punjabi could always say "the difference is we are from the same country".

can you point out a country, any federation, which limits the movement and enterprizes of its citizens? The US and EU are two relatively loose federations, with much stronger state rights than Pakistan, but they dont limit who goes across provinces to "colonize".

[Mostar95]

@ravage

answer me this: are urdu speaking people considered colonizers by Sindhi nationalists? if so, then whatever caveats you come up with are meaningless. a punjabi could always say "the difference is we are from the same country".

can you point out a country, any federation, which limits the movement and enterprizes of its citizens? The US and EU are two relatively loose federations, with much stronger state rights than Pakistan, but they dont limit who goes across provinces to "colonize".

Yes good point.

[Saad_UAE]

@ravage

answer me this: are urdu speaking people considered colonizers by Sindhi nationalists? if so, then whatever caveats you come up with are meaningless. a punjabi could always say "the difference is we are from the same country".

can you point out a country, any federation, which limits the movement and enterprizes of its citizens? The US and EU are two relatively loose federations, with much stronger state rights than Pakistan, but they dont limit who goes across provinces to "colonize".

He might be referring to "exploitation" of resources , which Balochis usually complain about. There is no restriction to move or even settle even for punjabis, sindhis, muhajirs etc. You referred to EU and US, well both have stiff and stringent laws, that check on exploitation of any state in the union.

[ravage]

@Saad_UAE

He might be referring to "exploitation" of resources , which Balochis usually complain about. There is no restriction to move or even settle even for punjabis, sindhis, muhajirs etc.

What exploitation Saad? Usually people refer to as exploitation, just the act of being successful/profitable/propsperous in another state.

[quote]

You referred to EU and US, well both have stiff and stringent laws, that check on exploitation of any state in the union.
[/QUOTE]

Again, define "exploitation", and what kind of "stiff and stringent" laws you are talking about. I've lived in US and there are no laws keeping citizens of one state from moving in another, and fairly limited inter state laws for corporations such as avoiding monopolies.

Nothing that limits "exploitation" as you put it that I am aware of.

[Saad_UAE]

@ravage

What exploitation Saad? Usually people refer to as exploitation, just the act of being successful/profitable/propsperous in another state.

Again, define "exploitation", and what kind of "stiff and stringent" laws you are talking about.

Trade laws that exist between the countries ,like if you are British and want to lay a company in Bulgaria(both EU members), you have to obey both EU and Bulgarian laws. Where as Baloch says, no one asks them or pay them royalty for sui gas and now using Makran port etc. That's what Baloch call"exploitation" of their resources.

[ravage]

Re: Marri ready to negotiate on behalf of BLA only

UK isnt fully part of EU exactly, a more apt analogy would be say France and Bulgaria. And yes they would need to conform to both EU and Bulgarian law, but that is the case for any federation. Pakistan similarly has provincial laws and federal laws.

a minivan company can be owned by a Punjabi, but when he drives his vans in NWFP he needs to turn off the music.

As far as Baloch asking and not getting royalties, I agree there. Province rights need to be enhanced in Pakistan, which means the federal govt should be much weaker. But that is not the same as saying that Punjabies moving to Balochistan or Pathans to Karachi are colonizing it. Two very seperate topics.

[Saad_UAE]

@ravage

UK isnt fully part of EU exactly, a more apt analogy would be say France and Bulgaria. And yes they would need to conform to both EU and Bulgarian law, but that is the case for any federation. Pakistan similarly has provincial laws and federal laws.

a minivan company can be owned by a Punjabi, but when he drives his vans in NWFP he needs to turn off the music.

It is much more then just turning off music , or taking a chaddar in NWFP. It's about paying them handsome royalties for Sui Gas, using Makran Port, Minning for Coal or using their Highways to connect to Central Asia/Iran.

[ravage]

@Saad_UAE

It is much more then just turning off music , or taking a chaddar in NWFP. It's about paying them handsome royalties for Sui Gas, using Makran Port, Minning for Coal or using their Highways to connect to Central Asia/Iran.

you are talking about the relationship of the states with each other and the federal govt. the issues discussed here are on the movement of people. Look at this quote:

@Khehkeshan

we don't send back our money to India, we don't run businesses that benefit India, we don't bury are dead in India. We live and die in Sindh now, unlike most of the other outsiders in Sindh and Balochistan.

Outsiders living in Sindh and Balochistan wouldnt be giving royalties for Sui Gas/Makran Port or anything.

As far as what you are saying, you are preaching to the choir as far as I am concerned. I believe the federal govt shouldnt own anything and provinces should negotiate for these things. However that doesnt mean limiting what citizens can or cant do, where they can move, and where they can do business.

[Saad_UAE]

@ravage

you are talking about the relationship of the states with each other and the federal govt. the issues discussed here are on the movement of people. Look at this quote: .

Nope this is way off reality.... In ideal state of affairs this may be true...
In Balochistan , Federal Government = Punjab( for them this is the reality).... any thing that goes off to the Federal Govt., goes out to Punjab... I am not saying this because i have something against Punjab etc. To Baloch(BLA etc) there is no sense in negotiations, they are calling it off since the conception of Pakistan , that it should be a loose confederated state, with maximum provincial powers.It is not a question of what you or i am concerned about. It's also going to flare up when Iran-Pakistan gas pipe line is to be laid.

[ravage]

Re: Marri ready to negotiate on behalf of BLA only

different topic to what me and khek were discussing saad. look at the quote to get an idea.

but yea i agree on the need for a more federalized system

[Himalaya]

As much as I sympathise with the Baloch and how theyhave been exploited over the last 60 years i dont think much will change unless the Baloch personally do something themselves about their cruel sardar system.

The way the average baloch lives and the way their leaders live is completely different. Their leaders have everything - their people have little and are content with it to an extent.

The fate of the Baloch would not change if they broke off from Pakistan - the sardar system will still be there and the main beneficiaries will be the sardars.
The Baloch never question their tribal leaders.

More can be done for balochistan but they need also to change their social system.

[Saad_UAE]

@ravage

different topic to what me and khek were discussing saad. look at the quote to get an idea.

but yea i agree on the need for a more federalized system

Well i don't agree with khekeshan, If he says Punjabis are not allowed to live in Baluchistan. But the general feeling in Baluchistan is that other Pakistanis are destroying their province by over exploiting their resources in the name of development.

[Saad_UAE]

@MALIK_786

Not true about PPP. Sherry Rahman is a muhajir near the top of the party. You have numerous Punjabis and Pashtuns doing well in the PPP. MQM is the ONLY party who have openly advocated racism against other ethnicities. Other parties may be more dominated by other ethnic groups, but none have the character of MQM. On the trust factor, I agree, its needs to built over time. But again the MQM has used race based violence in major incidences over the last year that have destroyed any such "trust" For this reason alone the party should not be tolerated.

Well the main aim of us Pakistanis should be to find a common ground where we can work together not based on ethnic rifes,and besides i was talking about the majority muhajirs supporting MQM and the local PPP Sind politics.And besides it's not much that PPP has talked a lot about muhajir's issues in Karachi.

[Khehkeshan]

Re: Marri ready to negotiate on behalf of BLA only

Ravage, I already said that I don't agree with Marri, but you're focusing too much on the "logic" of that statement. You should focus on why he made that statement and why other Balochs think even less of Punjabis. If Balochs were in a good position within their own province they would have no problem with migrants from other provinces coming in and filling gaps in the workforce, but that is not what's happening right now.

[ravage]

Ravage, I already said that I don't agree with Marri,

I never really cared about what Marri said. You were talking about Punjabi colonization, giving examples of people like CJ who is a punjabi in Balochistan. You even tried to justify it by saying we dont send money back to india etc. That is what I am responding to.

[quote]

but you're focusing too much on the "logic" of that statement. You should focus on why he made that statement and why other Balochs think even less of Punjabis. If Balochs were in a good position within their own province they would have no problem with migrants from other provinces coming in and filling gaps in the workforce, but that is not what's happening right now.
[/QUOTE]

Excuses.

People are responsible for improving themselves, Government, even if biased, is only a fraction of development, especially a rickety, impoverished government like Pakistan.

They have the most mineral/oil resources and the least population. If they cant exploit them either themselves or in partnership with foreign companies, if they need to rely on the government extracting their minerals then giving them a cut, thats their fault.

Why is the development thrust of Gwadar coming from the state and not the people of Balochistan?

[Khehkeshan]

Re: Marri ready to negotiate on behalf of BLA only

While you argue over “excuses”, events will take their own course. This is from the Jamalis, the most pro-establishment tribe Balochistan. It’s not their fault that the Punjab-dominated bureaucracy makes all the decisions and not them. With autonomy, they will get to decide these matters and that scares the crap out of the establishment.

http://www.dawn.com/2008/06/18/top3.htm

Centre coughs up Rs3bn after Balochistan agony

By Our Staff Reporter

ISLAMABAD, June 17: The federal government on Tuesday came to the rescue of Balochistan to enable it to finalise its budget in the wake of an outburst by Senate’s Deputy Chairman Jan Mohammad Jamali on the floor of the house during the debate on the federal budget.

Senator Jamali talked about “another dismemberment of the country” if the provinces were not given autonomy.

Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani announced a special grant of three billion rupees for Balochistan from his discretionary fund to help the province finalise its development budget and formed a committee to look into its complaints relating to gas development surcharge and royalty rates.

The committee, formed after a meeting between the prime minister and a delegation of Balochistan’s parliamentary leaders led by Chief Minister Nawab Aslam Raisani, will be headed by Federal Law Minister Farooq Naek.

According to an official announcement, the committee was directed to submit its report by Wednesday evening.

Earlier, Senate’s Deputy Chairman Jan Mohammad Jamali stunned everyone when he spoke about the country’s “disintegration” if the provinces were not given autonomy, particularly Balochistan, his native province.

“I have to speak out. You have to give provincial autonomy and soon. Time is running out fast,” he told the upper house on a point of order, allegorically warning that otherwise “the four brothers (provinces) will not be able to live together”.

His emotional outburst came just before the start of the general debate on the budget when he took the floor on a point of order.

“You owe Balochistan Rs800 billion in royalty since natural gas started flowing out of the province in 1955, and that account will have to be settled,” he said.

Acknowledging that there was no tradition for a deputy chairman to speak on a point of order, Mr Jamali said he had been left with no option but to speak up for the people of his province because the situation was “fast running out of control”.

He drew the attention of the house towards the fact that Balochistan Chief Minister Nawab Aslam Raisani and a number of his ministers were in Islamabad to seek financial assistance from the federal government so that they could prepare the provincial budget.

Mr Jamali regretted that his province did not have resources to present the budget for the next financial year.

“One brother is rich with resources, but it has no powers,” Mr Jamali said, adding: “You will have to bring constitutional amendments. If you want to run the country, you will have to give powers to my province and to Pakhtoonkhwa (NWFP) to use their resources … You will have to give us rights if you want to run the country.”

Referring to the hometown of Senate Chairman Mohammadmian Soomro, he said he feared that a time might come when he would have to ‘visit Jacobabad on a passport’.

He regretted that many committees had been formed on the Balochistan issue, but “without any concrete outcome”.

In the evening, a delegation of Balochistan legislators, comprising Jan Jamali, members of the National Assembly and senators from Balochistan, met the prime minister and apprised him of the province’s grievances.

The prime minister announced a special grant of Rs3 billion in addition to Rs640 million allocated by him last week for electrification of Nushki and Dalbandin, Rs340 million for gas supply to Surab and Rs360 million for Nushki under the People’s Works Programme.

The prime minister told the delegation that international assistance was being sought for building small dams in remote areas. Four of the five new dams, proposed to be built at a cost of Rs250 billion, would be constructed in Balochistan.

The chief minister gave an overview of the financial constraints facing Balochistan while the province’s finance minister briefed the prime minister about economic problems.

The prime minister said that in contrast to the federal government’s allocation of Rs26 billion for Balochistan, it would spend Rs42 billion on PSDP projects in the province.

He said that the government firmly resolved to grant maximum autonomy to provinces in consultation with their elected representatives.

He said his government would ensure strict implementation of the six per cent quota in federal jobs for Balochistan. He said 3,806 vacancies would be advertised soon in Balochistan, adding that qualifications for these jobs could be relaxed to accommodate youths.

He said his government had promoted five officers from Balochistan to Grade-22, terming it unprecedented.

The prime minister was assisted by Federal Minister for Finance Naveed Qamar, Minister for Population Welfare Humayun Aziz Kurd, Deputy Chairman of the Planning Commission Salman Farooqui, Special Assistant to the Prime Minister Hina Rabbani Khar, chief secretary of Balochistan and senior officials of the federal and Balochistan government.