Re: Malaysia court rules non-Muslims can't use 'Allah'
Allah word is derived from Al-Ilahi.
Ya Ilaahi.
While Ya Ilaahi was old term prior to Islam revelation,
*Allah became synonymous of God of Muslims.
*
Muslims do not use Bhagwan or Holy Father, or Jesus Christ to refer to Gods or God figure so *why should Non-Musims be adamant of using Allah as God?
*
And if Malaysian Govt believes the word Allah is being used by Non Muslims to promote their evil and skewed ideas, then the country should be able to ban its misuse.
Re: Malaysia court rules non-Muslims can't use 'Allah'
LOL. you are stuck with that phrase and didn't bother as how it was used.
That phrase refer to "fellow citizens" and not Muslims or Islam. come on give me a break. will ya.
Let me rephrase the same sentence just for you
"You said, "It was a rightful move to open fire on your own citizens?". There are all sorts of people in Pakistan. There are our fellow citizens who are "murderers, rapists and thugs etc.". Are you suggesting that we should not apprehend the criminals on account of being "fellow citizens" and let them go and even encourage them"
This is exactly what I wanted to say and I think I communicated well to others except you. You are trying to raise a storm in a cup of tea. I am out of here. enough of this.
Re: Malaysia court rules non-Muslims can't use 'Allah'
LOL. you are stuck with that phrase and didn't bother as how it was used.
That phrase refer to "fellow citizens" and not Muslims or Islam. come on give me a break. will ya.
Let me rephrase the same sentence just for you
"You said, "It was a rightful move to open fire on your own citizens?". There are all sorts of people in Pakistan. There are our fellow citizens who are "murderers, rapists and thugs etc.". **Are you suggesting that we should not apprehend the criminals **on account of being "fellow citizens" and let them go and even encourage them"
This is exactly what I wanted to say and I think I communicated well to others except you. You are trying to raise a storm in a cup of tea. I am out of here. enough of this.
No,
Anyone who is proven to be murderer, thug or rapist should be apprehended, but not any citizen without being proven to be murderer, thug or rapist should be fired upon.
Which part of my posts you did not get????
Try not to promote mass killing or justify indiscriminate killing.
Re: Malaysia court rules non-Muslims can't use 'Allah'
Allah word is derived from Al-Ilahi.
Ya Ilaahi.
While Ya Ilaahi was old term prior to Islam revelation,
Allah became synonymous of God of Muslims.
**
Muslims do not use Bhagwan or Holy Father, or Jesus Christ to refer to Gods or God figure so **why should Non-Musims be adamant of using Allah as God?....
The same Allah who is Rehman and Raheem? I am sure He would not get into a rage hearing non-Muslims using the word "Allah".
Re: Malaysia court rules non-Muslims can't use 'Allah'
Jews, Christians, Haneefs, Sabeans, Pagans and even Arabs who were atheists, were using this term (Allah) much before the birth of Prophet (SAW) and thus it is not new to them.
So, your question should be put to those who do not like them to use word 'Allah' to address their creator, that 'why they adopted the word Arabs were using to recognise their creator much before Islam ... and why they did not come up with new word or term?'
Do you have any evidence to show that? According to my limited knowledge their scriptures and literature don't reflect.
Next someone will start using name "Quran" for their book and our 'liberal' brothers will say the same 'its just an Arabic word' no one has right over it :)
Allah can no longer be used by a Christian newspaper in Malaysia to refer to God after a landmark court ruling on Monday, reversing a decision made four years previously that maintained the term transcended different faiths.
“It is my judgment that the most possible and probable threat to Islam, in the context of this country, is the propagation of other religions to the followers of Islam,” said chief judge Mohamed Apandi Ali, announcing the change.
The panel of three judges was unanimous in their decision that the use of Allah by the Roman Catholic Herald newspaper constituted a threat to the sanctity of Islam, as defined in the federal constitution. The Herald editor the Rev. Lawrence Andrew said he was “disappointed and dismayed,” vowing to appeal.
**The issue is contentious. The previous 2009 ruling was followed by a spate of attacks on churches, and critics fear the issue is once again being used to stoke religious tensions in the Muslim-majority Southeast Asian nation. “Narrow-minded and prejudiced people are creating an atmosphere of hatred,” Mujahid Yusof Rawa, an MP for Malaysia’s opposition Pan-Malaysian Islamic Party, tells TIME.
**
According to the Rev. Eu Hong Seng, chairman of the Christian Federation of Malaysia, “The Bahasa Malaysia–speaking Christians have been using the word Allah before and after the independence of Malaya and the formation of Malaysia.”
**Plenty of academic evidence suggests that Allah has also been used by Christians and Jews in Arabia for generations. “And what about the 10 [million] to 12 million Arab Christians today? They have been calling God ‘Allah’ in their Bibles, hymns, poems, writings, and worship for over 19 centuries,” says Fouad Accad in his bookBuilding Bridges: Christianity and Islam, which examines commonality between the different faiths.
** Allah was common parlance even before the birth of Islam in the sixth century. “Arabs used the word ‘Allah’ for the supreme being before the time of Muhammad,” writes Kenneth J. Thomas, a United Bible Societies translation consultant based in New York. “Inscriptions with ‘Allah’ have been discovered in Northern and Southern Arabia from as early as the fifth century B.C.”
**With Christians in the neighboring Indonesia still allowed to use the term, many ponder what is behind the Malaysian U-turn. Mujahid believes this latest ruling is part of a “dynamic” of Malay right-wing appeasement after Prime Minister Najib Razak was returned to power with a slim majority.
**
**“Malaysia is not prepared yet for such mature interfaith relationships, since the word Allah is still seen as very sensitive to Muslims,” he laments. “But I don’t think Muslims are that weak that they are going to convert to Christianity by hearing the word Allah said by a Christian.”
**
Ethnicity has been a key facet of Malaysian politics since colonial times, and increasingly so after 1971, when affirmative action for the bumiputra, or “sons of the soil” as the Malay and smaller indigenous minorities call themselves, was introduced in the wake of bloody race riots.
Ethnic Malays make up around two-thirds of Malaysia’s 28 million people. Chinese and Indians control much of the wealth and make up around 22% and 7% of the population respectively. About 9% of Malaysians are Christian.
Re: Malaysia court rules non-Muslims can't use 'Allah'
No, absolutely not.
The law as far I understand is not about some kind of proprietary war among religious people to use which word is for God for whom to use.
I think they just do not want people to be deceived.
Why be adamant in using word Allah someone is not Muslim??
Why criticize the law to begin with, if there is no ill intention?
Yes, people need to be educated too.
Laws like this make Muslims a target for ridicule. Are you such weak and illiterate people that you'd be fooled by someone using 'Allah' instead of 'God'? Steps like this take people like me away from religion then closer. Sad, but true.
Re: Malaysia court rules non-Muslims can’t use ‘Allah’
The actual reason behind this law is not really known to us.
There must have been a reason for it.
Again why even criticize the law? Non Muslims in general do not use word Allah as their Gods(s) anyways.
And its not like their religious rights are taken away from this law.
If one reads few threads here and also go though the biased media they try to show mostly, Muslim countries are full of idiots and brainless people and their lawmakers are bunch of loony people.
Why is it that any law which is passed in any country gets selectively targeted and ridiculed?
Should that really be a reason for any country to roll back the law?
Now:
Let me ask you in turn: Please answer clearly.
You get close to religion based on your own research and choice, or you look up to people who ridicule religion and in turn decide to go away from religion?
PETALING JAYA: Lawyer Haniff Khatri Abdulla said that the Appeals Court’s judgment does not infringe on the rights of other publications to use the term ‘Allah’. However the usage of ‘Allah’ as done by Catholic weekly, The Herald must be avoided. “The judgment does not relate to other publications and people. There is no blanket ban on the ‘Allah’ word,” he said when asked whether other publications can use the term Allah.
Haniff who was also a counsel for the Selangor Islamic Religious Council elaborated on the judgment of the Appeals Court that disallowed the Herald from using ‘Allah’ in their Bahasa Malaysia version.
The court ruled that the Home Minister acted within his jurisdiction in prohibiting the Herald from using the word ‘Allah’. The appeal judges said the ruling was done to avoid confusion among Muslims and Christians, and ‘Allah’ was not integral to the faith of the Christians.
“Until a case is brought up to the court **there is no blanket prohibition on the use of Allah,” **said Haniff today.
He added that there were state enactments which can be used to curb the usage of Allah in the Control and Restriction of the Propagation of Non Islamic Religions 1981 enactment; prohibiting non-Muslims from using ‘Allah’.
The enactment, among others, does not allow non-Muslims from using terms such as ‘Allah’, ‘Baitullah’ and ‘Kaabah’ and about 30 other words. “In Islam, Allah is for all, so to utter Allah in the context of Islam is fine. In Christianity there is a concept of Trinity, which is against the concept of Oneness of Allah in Islam. This is against the theology of Islam,” he said.
He also called upon the public to look at the problem from a linguistic and translation perspective.
“It is not a battle of the scriptures. Jesus son of Allah is blasphemy for Muslims. In Sabah and Sarawak, they know that Allah is the pronoun for Muslims. It may confuse the Christians there too,” he said.
“Allah is a specific name where-else God is a general term,” he added.
In a heated online television discussion yesterday, three Muslim scholars were still agreed on one thing: that the use of the word “Allah” to describe gods of different religions – including the Christian god – is an issue only in Malaysia and nowhere else in the world.
But it still was an issue to two of the scholars as they argued there was an agenda behind Christians using Allah to refer to their god in Malay bibles.
“Christianity is said to be over 2,000 years old. They should have a big vocabulary bank to choose from to refer to God. The fact that they chose Allah was evidence that they have an agenda,” argued Dr Khalif Muammar Harris, associate professor of the Center for Advanced Studies on Islam, Science and Civilization at Universiti Teknologi Malaysia.
Agreeing with him, another panellist echoed the refrain of some that Christians had used the word to mislead East Malaysians to convert them to Christianity. Making this point was Dr Yusri Mohamad, chairman of the Coalition of Supporters of Islam (Pembela), who wanted the word “Allah” banned in Malay bibles.
“It is a Christian virus in the country. They cannot be faulted for having their own missionaries, but they are propagating the virus of pluralism, that all religions are the same,” he said.
The forum “Is Allah exclusive to Islam – Law, Faith and Politics” was organised by MySuara.net, an online TV portal yesterday.
It was moderated by ex-Perlis mufti Dr Asri Zainul Abidin and held as a curtain raiser to Putrajaya’s appeal set to be heard on Tuesday.
The appeal is against a 2009 High Court ruling that allowed the Catholic Church to use the word “Allah” in its weekly newspaper, the Herald.
Dr Asri, in his opening comments, said the word Allah was in a Catholic bible he bought in Jordan some time ago.
“They have been using the word a long time ago, and so it’s a non-issue in the Arab world,” he noted.
But Dr Yusri responded that the word was currently being misused in the Malay bible.
“Yes, the problem is exclusive to Malaysia, but my personal opinion is it cannot be used in bibles. The National Fatwa Council also felt the same. "The world would not turn upside down for the Christians if they are not allowed to use the word. It is actually not a big issue to them even if the word is banned. It’s not as though they don’t have an alternative word that will not upset their Muslim friends,” he said.
The third panellist, PAS Member of Parliament for Shah Alam Khalid Samad, felt that it was not an issue. He argued that instead of banning the word from non-Muslim tracts, religious leaders and scholars should instead educate and create awareness on what Allah means to Muslims.
…
Re: Malaysia court rules non-Muslims can’t use ‘Allah’
It is not the ridicule that is the problem. It is the sheer idiocity and stupidity of those who claim to do things in the name of religion. The more they do it, the more the claims of atheists look sensible. One of the major claims is that religion was invented to control the behavior of masses by the ‘ruling elite’. Laws, like this one, strengthen that claim.
Would you rather propagate a religion with open-mindedness and care towards the ‘infidels’ or through control?
On the surface, there is nothing much wrong with the law. Not a huge number of non-Muslims would be using ‘Allah’ anyways. And it is true that none of their religious freedoms has been taken away. If it is so trivial a matter, why legislate about it?
Re: Malaysia court rules non-Muslims can’t use ‘Allah’
Nice try but no fact just fabricated claim … brother you can try truth to justify your beliefs, but please do not take refuge in lies and propaganda that could misguide some (as I believe it is due to your post Captain1 raised question in post 47).
In Arabic … Al is used to make something definitive.
ilah = god (any god)
Al-ilah or Allah = The God, The supreme deity, Creator of everything.
Arab kuffars used ilah for any god … and Allah for supreme God. Not only kuffars, but all who used to speak Arabic, including Jews and Christians, used to use Allah for the ‘Supreme God’ or ‘God the creator’.
Now, I know you would not feel satisfied however obvious a thing maybe, unless one do not quote Quran or hadith to justify the claim.
So, here it is: Even though it can be proven from many ayahs, let see ayah 4:171 (mentioned below). In this ayah, Allah is telling ‘people of the book’ that ilah is only one and that is Allah … where ‘Allah means the God’ and ‘ilah means god’. From ayah it is obvious that people knew Allah as Supreme God.
O people of the scripture (Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught but the truth. The Messiah ‘Îsa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word, (“Be!” – and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam (Mary) and a spirit (Ruh ) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: “Three (trinity)!” Cease! (it is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilah (God), glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs. (Surah An-Nisa:171)
Thus, Quran confirms that Jews and Christians used to recognize and worship the creator calling him ‘Allah’ … and that is why when God talked about himself to these people he used the term Allah (whom these people recognised and worshipped), letting people know that other than Allah there is no ilah. Obviously, from ayah it is clear that ‘Allah’ was known and unquestionable as ‘supreme Being’.
From ayah, one can see that word ilah is used to define god and Allah is used to define the only god or ‘Supreme God’. In above ayah Allah is telling people of the book that there is only one god (ilah) who is the supreme God (Allah).
In ayah 4:82 Allah is mentioned in general terms, showing that all who speak Arabic, even kuffars of Mecca, they used to recognise and worshipped Allah as ‘supreme Being’ (The god, creator of everything).
Transliteration
Afala yatadabbaroona alqur-anawalaw kana min AAindi ghayri Allah i lawajadoo feehiikhtilafan katheera
“Do they not then consider the Quran carefully? Had it been from other than Allah they would surely have found therein much contradictions.” (Surah An-Nisa 4:82)
So … from Quran (above ayahs) it is clear that Kuffars as well as people of book used to remember, recognise and worship Allah as ‘Supreme Being (creator)’ whom Christians used to also consider ‘God the father’. These people recognised Allah so much as Supreme Creator that Allah tells them that they should accept the message (Quran) from him, and also told them that if Quran was not from Allah (God these people worshipped as supreme god = Allah) then Quran would have had lot of contradictions … shows, Allah as supreme God was known and unquestionable and that he could not send anything contradictory (known to all).
Now let come to hadith and historical facts to prove that kuffars and people even before Islam used to know and worship Allah as the Supreme Being and creator.
1: Prophet (SAW) father name was Abd-Allah (servant of Allah)… or Abdullah. … shows that Quraish even before birth of Prophet (SAW) used to know and worship Allah.
2: Let look at hadith referring to Mahada-e-Hudaybia (given below). In that treaty agreement:
A: Ali (RA) under the instruction of Prophet (SAW) wrote ‘Bismillah-ir-Rahman-ir-Rahim’ (In the name of Allah, most gracious and most merciful) … Quraish protested … and asked it to get replaced with ‘Bi-ismika Allah umma’ (in thy name, O Allah).
Shows that for Quraish, Allah was supreme Being whom they knew and worshipped (as God supreme) and also used to mention his name for anything they start.
B: Ali (RA) under instruction of Prophet (SAW) wrote … Mohammad Rasul-Allah (Mohammed, prophet of Allah) … Quraish protested … protested what?
Well, Quraish said that if they believed Prophet (SAW) as messenger of Allah (Rasul-Allah) then there would have been no conflict (because for them Allah was God supreme)… but they do not believe that Prophet (SAW) is messenger of Allah. So for Quraish Allah as ‘Supreme God’ was known … but their doubt was on Prophet-hood of Prophet (SAW). It shows that Quraish used to recognise that Allah is the Supreme God whom they worship, else if Quraish did not used the word Allah for supreme God then their questioning and protest was meaningless.
Sahi Muslim:* Book 019, Number 4404:*
(http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/019-smt.php#019.4404)
It has been narrated on the authority of Anas that the Quraish made peace with the Prophet (may peace be upon him). Among them was Suhail b. Amr. The Prophet (may peace be upon him) said to 'Ali: Write" In the name of Allah, most Gracious and most Merciful." Suhail said: As for" Bismillah," we do not know what is meant by “Bismillah-ir-Rahman-ir-Rahim” (In the name of Allah most Gracious and most Merciful). But write what we understand, i. e. Bi ismika allahumma (in thy name. O Allah). Then, the Prophet (may peace be upon him) said: Write: “From Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah.” They said: If we knew that thou welt the Messenger of Allah, we would follow you. Therefore, write your name and the name of your father. So the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) said: Write" From Muhammad b. 'Abdullah." They laid the condition on the Prophet (may peace be upon him) that anyone who joined them from the Muslims, the Meccans would not return him, and anyone who joined you (the Muslims) from them, you would send him back to them. The Companions said: Messenger of Allah, should we write this? He said: Yes. One who goes away from us to join them-may Allah keep him away! and one who comes to join us from them (and is sent back) Allah will provide him relief and a way of escape.
So, it shows that Kuffars, Christians, Jews … well, anyone whose language was Arabic used to recognise and worshipped God supreme by the name ‘Allah’, even before the birth of Prophet (SAW).
Re: Malaysia court rules non-Muslims can’t use ‘Allah’
Too many points to cover in your one post.
First: I asked you to please answer clearly.
Basically you are saying you would rather look at other people’s actions than going by your own research on religion.
I don’t think people should be so gullible. But I do know even a lot of educated, intelligent people are, and many of them pretend to be so they can justify bashing religion(s).
Why make a law: This is a legal issue. It must be that this particular weekly was felt to be using the word Allah to spread their message as if there was no difference in God the Father and God of Musiims. Its circulation is only around 14000. it is not that the religious freedom of non Musims is taken away.
The decision is not final yet, an appeal is to be placed in federal Govt.
A lot of legally acceptable acts do become ‘illegal’, if somehow deliberately misused. A universally acceptable phenomenon.
Outside that it is no big issue. Please read above.
Try not to make it such a huge ordeal. :smack:
Your third point: Would you rather propagate religion with open mindedness?
Yes and no. If any misuse or deliberate attempt to fool people is made then it should be stopped.
In social circle people say : “Oh but we worship the same God, don’t we?”.
And some nod their heads and some stay quiet, some merely smile.
But everyone knows the person is not only fooling himself but others too. In social circle people do not want to argue.
In this case open mindedness is shown by selectively banning a weekly chronicle to use the word. This is not an irrational act.
Re: Malaysia court rules non-Muslims can’t use ‘Allah’
And even after you had above posts at your disposal you would continue this theological discussion?
Its not that in general the use of word Allah by non Muslims is taken away.
If you must then please read below:
Just by posting Quranic verses or hadiths you wil never be able to deny that Allah is a specific term for God of Muslims.
Christians do not worship Allah as understood by Muslims.
Some even believe Allah to be Moon God.
Using word Allah to make it sound like the Father God or Holy Ghost of Christians are same, is wrong.
Allāh al-Ab (الله الأب, ‘God the Father’) is the word Chritians in Arab world use and maybe they shorten it by just using Allah, but not the same.
What I posted above was true. Words like Ilahi (god) gave the term Allah to make it more specific and was used by Muslims to refer to God. Before it was Elohi or Elaah or Alaha or Alla.
There is no denying the word Allah itself was not present before the Prophet or Quran was revealed, but the concept of someone higher and ONLY God was held pretty much those who still believed in monotheistic religion(s) or Polytheistic Pagans used word Allah but they used this word to specify “higher or main god” of other smaller gods or deities just like Nabataeans.
You have simple explanation of who is God of Muslims and who Non Muslims worship but still deny?
And accusing me of not believing even when things are obvious?
Re: Malaysia court rules non-Muslims can't use 'Allah'
The question that comes to mind is for the past 60 years what word did the Church use to describe God? I mean its been 60 years since Malaysia independence. Its hardly something they didn't do so before. Also why did they all of a sudden decide to change the text of the bible now?
Re: Malaysia court rules non-Muslims can't use 'Allah'
It is not the ridicule that is the problem. It is the sheer idiocity and stupidity of those who claim to do things in the name of religion. The more they do it, the more the claims of atheists look sensible. One of the major claims is that religion was invented to control the behavior of masses by the 'ruling elite'. Laws, like this one, strengthen that claim.
and salat, hajj and other "faraaiz" are not "strengthening" that claim?
