Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

Pak-one, you are dancing around in circles.

And my point about syria was that you don't see suicide bombings and internal unrest their from islamists, now do you? And yes force is not the only answer, but force along with other actions will have to be used. If not by Pakistan, then by NATO/US, force will be used. It's just a matter of when. Whether it will work or not, who knows, but many many in FATA will die if they don't change their ways. That is the reality you don't want to accept. Instead of just saying nobody understands FATA, and nobody can stop their terrorism, understand that they are not immortal.

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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

Good suggestion indeed. However similarly we should also name
Lahore as Nawaz Shareefistan.
Karachi as Matarwastan or Iltafistan is also a good name.

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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

Pak-one, you are dancing around in circles.

^

Hollow words. They don't mean jack, much like the sinmplistic understanding of the FATA conflict. Isn't it rich for Pakistanis to be critical of the US/West when they see Muslim=Terrorists, yet the very same people have no problems doing the same thing to their countrymen.

**
And my point about syria was that you don't see suicide bombings and internal unrest their from islamists, now do you? And yes force is not the only answer, but force along with other actions will have to be used. **

No no let's revisit this again:

From that thread:

I stated:

*
Religion and religious parties have a strong role in ending this civil strife in Pakistan. By bringing them to the table, will allow us all to break out of this situation without further bloodshed. Name ONE Islamic movement that has been dismantled violently in a Muslim Majority country? You will find no examples. If you want to try out the brilliant Hamas vs. Fatah route of Palestine or the Muslim Brotherhood clampdown in Egypt go right ahead. Unlike many people here, I am calling for minimizing Pakistani bloodshed.*

to which you responded:

*
Ok, I won’t even mention what Assad did in Syria….oops I just did. But anyways, you are only delaying much greater bloodshed through these fake peace deals.
*

Not so cheeky now? This after I dismantled your arguement that an Islamic movement was dismantled in Syria. Did you not think that I considered Asad in Hama, Syria?

We were talking about dismantling movements, now your talking about suicide bombings and internal unrest AFTER being discredited on the earlier point. Face it, your arguement/credibility were destryed at that point. Trying to cop-out of it all now is just sad.

**
If not by Pakistan, then by NATO/US, force will be used. It's just a matter of when. Whether it will work or not, who knows, but many many in FATA will die if they don't change their ways. That is the reality you don't want to accept. Instead of just saying nobody understands FATA, and nobody can stop their terrorism, understand that they are not immortal.**

This resort to violence will screw up Pakistan regardless of the Pakistani/US/NATO involvement. The US has done such a brilliant job in securing Iraq and Afghanistan that FATA/Pakistan will be a cakewalk right? Terrorism will be eradicated? Hah, I would be happy to be wrong om this one.

Expect more suicide bombings in urban areas, the dispersion of foreign extremists throughout Pakistan and lots more military casualties. I didn't say NOBODY understood FATA, I was just referring to your company of arm chair analysts who make statements like "bomb them all." Pakistani military understands and understood when they made agreements in the past.

In regards to immortality, no one understands life and death more than the people of FATA. Forget terrorism, blood feuds and the availability of weapons has allowed them to know that their life could end at any given point.

Like I said, watch this space, lets revisit it all in a few months.

the staring by some desi men
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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

**
Why should Pakistan waste any more lives on people that want to kill us? Go and ask about their love for their tribe, area, pashtuns over that of Pakistan.**

Then don't. Let the US attack. In fact why don't you lobby for the US/NATO to attack FATA, if that will serve your purposes?

Let's get real here:

  1. The US/NATO has already conducted missions inside FATA, both with and without the knowledge & cooperation of Pak. Military.

  2. A Bullet is a bullet. It doesn't matter if the bullets are Pakistani or American, both kill.

  3. Sure let the US bomb FATA indiscriminantly, perhaps the dreams of those who want bomb FATA into submission will be realized. After all, you guys hate them so much and it is "nominal" part of Pakistan right?

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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

Dunno about bullet bullet stuff. May be they are the same.

However just look over the border in Afghanistan. Your Mayor of Kabul protests daily about "Bullet Bullet".

Look at the bombed out skeletal remains of the places called Afghan cities like Kabul. Then tell me this bullet bullet theory of yours.

Man! this boggles my mind that people will ignore the Hashar Nashar of afghanistan and Afghanis and come up with these weirdo bullet bullet theories. Pak army is losing 10's if not 100's of its precious soldiers to make sure civilian Pashtoons don't get hurt, because they are "Our People".

Look in Afghanistan, and see how one NATO or US soldier gets hurt and they call in B-52 and F-16 air strikes. There you brave Afghans are negotiating that NATO should use 500 lb bomb instead of its 1000 lb older brother.

Ask those poor Afgan refugees who refuse to go back to their homelands, then ask yourself you want to do another refugee crisis, this time from FATA?

Wake up man! Wake up! There is not much time left!

Quit this fraud about "you guys hate us". Any Pashtoon can come buy property, live peacefully, secure business of his choice in any of the areas where all those "You guys hate us" live! Place like Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad where no Pashtoon is harassed until he is out doing protests of some kind.

On the other hand, anyone of "you guys hate us" wants to go to FATA as a doctor, teacher, or engineer to "serve Pashtoons" is hounded, harassed, kidnapped, or simply killed.

Do you know the concept of Bdaraga? This is the local Pashtoon body guard that you must hire before you go in tribal areas even if you want to go put electricity lines.

You don't tell this badaraga where you are headed until the day of. Otherwise the same badaraga tells his cousins to kidnap the poor engineer and then gov pays millions in tawan (ransom).

The depravity of tribal pashtoon areas is bottom less, and you still want to say "you guys hate us". Wah bhai wah, kia baat kartay ho!

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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

**Dunno about bullet bullet stuff. May be they are the same.

However just look over the border in Afghanistan. Your Mayor of Kabul protests daily about "Bullet Bullet".

Look at the bombed out skeletal remains of the places called Afghan cities like Kabul. Then tell me this bullet bullet theory of yours.

Man! this boggles my mind that people will ignore the Hashar Nashar of afghanistan and Afghanis and come up with these weirdo bullet bullet theories. Pak army is losing 10's if not 100's of its precious soldiers to make sure civilian Pashtoons don't get hurt, because they are "Our People".

Look in Afghanistan, and see how one NATO or US soldier gets hurt and they call in B-52 and F-16 air strikes. There you brave Afghans are negotiating that NATO should use 500 lb bomb instead of its 1000 lb older brother.

Ask those poor Afgan refugees who refuse to go back to their homelands, then ask yourself you want to do another refugee crisis, this time from FATA?

Wake up man! Wake up! There is not much time left!
**

Do you even read what you write? I guess not. The destruction of Afghanistan is years in the making. It was not like NATO bombed Serbia. When cities of Afghanistan were being bombed out, it didn't make a difference if Americans, Russian or locals were doing the killing or not, the results were the same.

**
Quit this fraud about "you guys hate us". Any Pashtoon can come buy property, live peacefully, secure business of his choice in any of the areas where all those "You guys hate us" live! Place like Karachi, Lahore, Islamabad where no Pashtoon is harassed until he is out doing protests of some kind.

On the other hand, anyone of "you guys hate us" wants to go to FATA as a doctor, teacher, or engineer to "serve Pashtoons" is hounded, harassed, kidnapped, or simply killed.

Do you know the concept of Bdaraga? This is the local Pashtoon body guard that you must hire before you go in tribal areas even if you want to go put electricity lines.

You don't tell this badaraga where you are headed until the day of. Otherwise the same badaraga tells his cousins to kidnap the poor engineer and then gov pays millions in tawan (ransom).

The depravity of tribal pashtoon areas is bottom less, and you still want to say "you guys hate us". Wah bhai wah, kia baat kartay ho!**

It is pretty amazing to see you talking about hatred for Pakhtuns, when I have read the kind words you have said earlier. All one needs to read is your second paragraph starting with "depravity of tribal Pakhtuns." Chief you can't even keep your statements congruent in one post!

The terms of accession to Pakistan were well outlined in 1947, no one could have cared less about FATA. Now that there are extremists holed up in there, suddenly there is this hue and cry. Think of the FATA agreement as something similar to the status of Kashmir in India.

As for the stereotypes, very nice. I could come up with a few of my own for the majority Province and the largest city of Pakistan. When Keh. was talking about Pakhtun views of others, I dropped it because I didn't want to go there. I don't play that game.

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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

Pak-one, you are coming up with the same old tired arguments that have been debunked countless times. First try to understand the difference between a bullet and a 1,000lb bomb and we can talk.

You won't understand the seriousness of the situation until full scale bombardment of FATA starts. All that false bravado of yours will not save FATA from bombs.

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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

I am not here to discuss differences between bullets vs. bombs, it is about the approach towards resolving this mess.

There is no bravado here. I don't buy the mindless party line that so many here believe as a solution. Make no mistakes about it, you will be proven wrong. If Pakistan is able to eradicate the extremist presence using the tried and true methods of the Americans, the brits before them, then I will gladly accept my mistake.

Btw, I am certain that you would feel differently if America was going to bomb Karachi because that is your home. Let us not forget the Al-Qaida presence there as well, the D. Pearl murder, the consul bombings etc.

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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

It is precisely because I don't what FAA to be bombed by Americans, I want Pakistan to succeed in crushing the terrorists on its own. The bogus deals with Taliban will only lead to American bombardments. This is not an issue about my ego or whether I will be proven right or wrong. It is about what will happen to the inhabitants of not only FATA but rest of Pakistan as well if we keep letting Taliban gain more and more power.

Karachi has seen it's fair share of jihadi madness, but after many of them were killed and captured, they ran away to other places in Pakistan. The threat still exists in Karachi, but at least there is a strong local force (MQM) that can counter them if the terrorists ever openly challenge the people of Karachi.

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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

Pak-one, can you tell me if british were failed and defeated then how king amaaanullah khan of fawwghanistan sold half his pashtuns in an agreement called doorund line that afghans ***** about now? :faizy:

In fact, pakistan really hasn’t effectively used the ‘divide & rule conquer is a better word’ strategy of the brits.

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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

Fair enough. There are many ways to skin the tribal cat. What would you rather do? Give us a set of solutions instead of being a petty spoiler.

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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

**Pak-one, can you tell me if british were failed and defeated then how king amaaanullah khan of fawwghanistan sold half his pashtuns in an agreement called doorund line that afghans ***** about now? :faizy:
**

  • We are talking about FATA not Afghanistan.

  • But let’s talk about Afghanistan since you brought it up:

  • The result of the first Afghan War. Entire Brit Army destroyed, one Dr. escaped to tell the tale.

  • The second Afghan War was stalemate. Before returning to Punjab, the Brits were able to install Abdur Rahman Khan who consolidated his control in Afghanistan.

  • The third Afghan war was a stalemate again, with the Brits abandoning their attempts to annex Afghanistan.

Returning to FATA, Abdur Rahman (not Amanullah Khan) had signed the agreement for the Durand line because the tribes of the area were practically independent and had never submitted to the rule of the iron emir. And we all know how much the Brits actually “controlled” the tribal areas.

The Afghan Wars:

  • marked one of the few times where a Western colonizing power was defeated.
  • Except for foreign affairs, Afghanistan was an independent Kingdom, one of the few non Western independent nations at that time.

No other part of Pakistan could say the same. In the other parts of Pakistan, the population was in the servitude of their British colonial masters. Rulers did not even hold nominal authority and all attempts to rebel were severely crushed by the Brits.

So yes the British failed in Afghanistan.

**
In fact, pakistan really hasn’t effectively used the ‘divide & rule conquer is a better word’ strategy of the brits.**

Go ahead and try to do that. The Brits did not “divide and rule” the Pakhtuns, the tribal areas of FATA were always nominally under the control of Afghanistan. Divide and rule worked more for our hindoostani neighbors across the Indus :smiley:

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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

I believe that enough is enough. The people of FATA have their rights and should be given that rights. Similarly people of Pakistan have rights and they should be given same rights equal to any other Pakistani nationals (Pakistanis in FATA should have same rights and duties as other Pakistanis). Thus, the best solution for FATA is that Pakistan government takes that crucial step of ‘integration or separation’ as soon as possible.

That is a referendum (or call it plebiscite) gets done in FATA where all adult should have right to vote. Question would be:

Should FATA (each tribal agencies would decide their future separately) be part of Pakistan as any part with similar laws and rights (YES) or (NO) it should not be part of Pakistan but should be separated from Pakistan and be given to Afghanistan without any right in Pakistan:

If answer is YES than FATA would become part of Pakistan and all in tribal areas would be treated as any Pakistani citizen and all laws of Pakistan should apply to them, that includes disarming of the population, ‘no Jirga but Pakistani court’, ‘tax payment on any earned income similar to other part of Pakistan’, ‘people pay for amenities (like electricity, gas, roads, etc)’ and all live in the area as people in other part of Pakistan live, with same rights and duties. Duty of government would be same to them as it is to people living in other parts of Pakistan and similarly they (tribals) would have same duty as people living in other part of Pakistan.

If answer is ‘No’ than FATA (that particular tribal agencies that vote ‘No’) should be given to Afghanistan.

After referendum (and handing over the area that voted to leave Pakistan for Afghanistan) all border of that particular FATA agency with Pakistan would be monitored, and people of FATA (that particular agency) would become Afghans and would be treated as foreign nationals in Pakistan (just like any Afghan or for that matter, Indian or Iranian or Chinese, or whatever).

Pakistan should make sure that Afghanistan is treated as entirely different country with same border control what Pakistan has with India or China. There should be no entry by Afghans to Pakistan (that includes those that voted to leave Pakistan) without visa for limited period, and if any Afghan overstays, they get deported with their finger print and picture taken, so that this person could never enter Pakistan again.

Though I believe that if government would do that and Pakistan loses some territory to Afghanistan, it would open a Pandora box. Pakistani corrupt and double face politicians would make hue and cry and would make this a political issue, would even going to pay historians to write all sort of BS regarding the issue, but if there is any real sincerity in government for Pakistan and future of Pakistan, the best solution for FATA is to take this crucial step of ‘integration or separation’ as soon as possible. I believe that it is difficult for political party or military ruler to do that, though it is best for Pakistan and for future of Pakistan.

At present FATA does not contribute anything to Pakistan other than troubles like crimes, lawlessness, drugs, armed robbery, illegal arms supply, smuggling, sectarian violence, religious extremism, etc. If Pakistan writ would get there, than probably Pakistan could make them contribute, else its best to get that cancerous bit amputated.

Woh bhi khush rahain aur hamay bhie khush rahnay dayen :D. If they like to be involved in Afghanistan affairs, let them get involved as Afghans, who cares? But if they would like to be with Pakistan than they should live like any Pakistani, and should start realising that Afghanistan and Pakistan is two different countries, with different destinies, different foreign policies, different priorities, different economies, and different interests.

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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

Pak wun, granted british didn’t do well in afghanistan [the terrain is perfect for guerilla warfare] but the army that was ‘massacred’ was actually killed when they were crossing a pass and came under fire from afghans on top of mountain.

My point that you failed to refute is that british made the king sell half his pathans and as you said, “imposed a king” which is funny if they lost the war as you say? :faizy:

Afghanistan basically ended up as a buffer state with british india bordering it on the east by the durand line and the russians on the pamir river. The independent nature of today’s pathans can be gauged from the fact that how many of them joined the same ‘farangi’ british army to go fight the empire’s wars when the empire needed them.. :smiley:

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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

Pak wun, granted british didn’t do well in afghanistan [the terrain is perfect for guerilla warfare] but the army that was ‘massacred’ was actually killed when they were crossing a pass and came under fire from afghans on top of mountain.

First off, its Pak-one, get it right or don’t say it at all.

Didn’t do well? Brits were routed from the territory is more like it.

**
My point that you failed to refute is that british made the king sell half his pathans and as you said, “imposed a king” which is funny if they lost the war as you say? :faizy:

**

There was no “selling” as the tribes were always independent, even when they allied with the rulers of Kabul. Different tribes of FATA had different alliances with rulers of Afghanistan and India.

  • You didn’t know the name of the king.
  • I did NOT say “imposed” much like your incorrect assertions, it is something that you made up. Abdur Rahman was the strongest leader in Afghanistan at that point, the British did not attack him under false pretences like they had done previously. Abdur Rahman was looking to consolidate his power in Afghanistan therfore the agreement for the Durand line was in his political interest at that time. The interest of the British was obvious. So where is the selling out? If your foolish enough to believe that every ruler acted in the interest of his ethnic/religious group, then you know jack about history.

The fact is that the Durand line means nothing to the Pakhtuns on either side of the border.

**
Afghanistan basically ended up as a buffer state with british india bordering it on the east by the durand line and the russians on the pamir river.
**

What does it matter if it was a buffer state or not? When compared to the rest of Pakistani and Indian Muslims forefathers toiling under the slavery of the British, it was much better.

**
The independent nature of today’s pathans can be gauged from the fact that how many of them joined the same ‘farangi’ british army to go fight the empire’s wars when the empire needed them.. :D**

Sure it was worthwhile to join the military, the economic advantages were there. Independence is gauged from the control of their own land. It is well established that the writ of the Brits in the frientier was limited to a ‘political agent’ who was around to pay the tribes large sums of money to keep them from attacking the british troops.

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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

Pak wun, if pathans are independent as you say then why become tool of the british empire? Wouldn’t someone who has self respect not become part of the same army that killed its fellow tribesmen?

Doorand line does mean something as otherwise fawwghanis wouldn’t be *****ing about it now, would they? :faizy: As you say, pashtun can intermix across the line. You can’t have the cake and eat it too.

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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

Pak wun, if pathans are independent as you say then why become tool of the british empire? Wouldn’t someone who has self respect not become part of the same army that killed its fellow tribesmen?

All very good questions: When we talk about independence, we’re talking about territorial/political independence, which by this point is very clear for the Pakhtuns. None of the Pakhtuns joining the military were forced into it by the Brits. It was a choice, a personal choice.

Lets not talk about self respect when Indian Muslims were directly pulling the triggers against their countrymen. Pakhtun involvement in WW I and WW II can hardly be compared to other Muslims of undivided India perpetuating the slavery of their fellow countrymen.

**
Doorand line does mean something as otherwise fawwghanis wouldn’t be ***ing about it now, would they? :faizy: As you say, pashtun can intermix across the line. You can’t have the cake and eat it too.

Big talk from someone who has not been to the border. Durand line is a soft border at best. Even with the present American/NATO occupation, you really can’t check the travel across the line.

It is due to the pathetic mentality of certain Pakistanis, who think of Afghans/Pakhtuns as trash, further fueling the resentment and discontent within the provinces. You are obviously not from the region nor care about the well being of the people. If you believe that Pakistan has much to gain by insulting Afghanistan and the dignity of the Pakhtun nation, then you are sadly mistaken.

The goodwill that Pakistan could have enjoyed from Afghanistan, was lost to the actions and flawed policies of people who share your beliefs. Sure Afghanistan looked at the Northwest of Pakistan as their terrirory because people sharing the same bloodlines resided there. However when it came time to choose, Pakhtuns of Pakistan chose to join the new country. Even when Pakistan was down ('65, '71) Pakhtuns did not cause any trouble for Pakistan on the western front.

By being patriots, serving the country, Pakhtuns of Pakistan have been called names, loyalties questioned, and rights trampled. Why must there be threads demanding for the creation of a new FATA province?

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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

Look pak wun, I don't have problems with pathans but those that carry on the filthy awwghan platform [anti-pakistan] then sure you will get the answer. You are right that Pakistan did a lot for awwghans while they did generally not much for the country [low-skill jobs but they were already being done by paki pathans / punjabis etc]. As I said, you can't have the cake and eat it too.

If what the FATA people are doing is right [suicide bombings, criminal behavior] along with afghan propaganda by ANP then what MQM did on May 12th is right as well. Answer to that, you hypocrite! :p

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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

*Look pak wun, I don't have problems with pathans but those that carry on the filthy awwghan platform [anti-pakistan] then sure you will get the answer.
*

You are a liar. I know and anyone reading your posts can see it. What a joke to bring up an anti-Pakistan platform, when we have people who are creating these problems between provinces. take Afghanistan out of the picture, it is clear that loyalties of Pakistani Pakhtuns are questioned time and time again.

**
You are right that Pakistan did a lot for awwghans while they did generally not much for the country [low-skill jobs but they were already being done by paki pathans / punjabis etc]. As I said, you can't have the cake and eat it too.
**

^

Makes no sense.

**
If what the FATA people are doing is right [suicide bombings, criminal behavior] along with afghan propaganda by ANP then what MQM did on May 12th is right as well. Answer to that, you hypocrite! :p**

  • ANP is not involved in FATA
  • The people of FATA are not the only ones involved in suicide bombings/criminal behavior.
  • What does MQM have to do with anything?
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Re: Make FATA a separate province: Khattak

No one is doubting pathans except for FATAans [rightly so even if we don't consider their "history"] and their compadres..