mahmood ghaznavi a looter?

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
61

re: mahmood ghaznavi a looter?

Correction:
1-There is no ‘secular’ Raja in India. Just as there is no ‘secular’ India.

2- The intention of Pak Army was not to damage kaaba.

Destruction of Babri Masjid does not have any similarity with this.

3- Before Ghaznavi was even appeared in Somnath, many local hindus/Rajas had commited destroying/attacking/looting somnath pilgrims since it was considered as a place where money was flourishing.

His intention was not to gain money, if he did, he would have accepted the ransom offered by Brahmans.

http://rupeenews.com/2008/11/21/why-mahmud-of-ghazni-attacked-somnath/

…
After a fierce and close battle] Mahmud entered the temple and possessed himself of its fabulous wealth. Not a hundredth part of the gold and precious stones he obtained from Somnath were to be found in the treasury of any king of Hindustan.’ **Later historians have related how Mahmud refused the enormous ransom offered by the Brahmans, and preferred the title of Idol-breaker’(But-shikan) to that of `Idol-seller’ (But-farosh).* He struck the idol with his mace and his piety was instantly rewarded by the precious stones that came out of its belly.* Sultan Mahmud of Ghazni by Mohammad Habib…
%between%

Ajeeb Shaam khari hai Kahin Say Aajao
62

re: mahmood ghaznavi a looter?

I suggest Mods place a question mark (?) after the title of this thread for fairness.

History Mystery
63

Peace Brother faris Udeen

I feel that this discussion is almost over between us. U have let ur viws known to me regarding Mehmood and I have mine. But I have something to ask U regarding the following comment of urs.

[quote]

Well then i tell you that i once followed a system of beliefs not assimilar to your own. Go back half a decade and do you remember Gujarat? Well after that horror Faris Udeen was born as a hatefull fanatic.

[/quote]

I remember Gujrat and it happened exactly 7 years back, ie Feb.2002. I consider Gujrat carnage of our muslim brothers and sisters as ugliest blot possible on India's face.

But why u turned a hateful fanatic after that?

Why didnt u turn a hateful fanatic when first heard about the 72 martyrs of Karabala? That too by none other than muslims itself? Why U didnt start hating muslims coz some of them martyered Imam Hussain and his family?

Why didnt U turn a hateful fanatic when U learned about Saddam hussain and his muslim army unleashed brutality on poor Iraqis for four decades?

Why dont U turn a hateful fanatic when today too U hear about h ow many of ur black brothers and sisters are being killed in Darfur by ur own muslim brothers?

Why didnt u turn a hateful fanatic when U heard about muslims who killed muslims in great numbers?

Why U single out Hindus only?

No brother, I m afraid that it was not pain for suffrings of ur muslim bretherns, but ur already deep rooted hate for hindus which prompted U to declare urself a hateful fanatic after Gujrat.

Do U notice the difference brother?

[quote]

Posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT
His campaigns in India damaged the existing political order and his "looting" inflicted sufficient economic damage to weaken the Indian states sufficiently that 200 years later Ghauri could conquer the region completely.

Ghaznavi prepared the way for the conquest to come.... a hero. How many of the people of today's Pakistan would have failed to have come to Islam without that conquest?

[/quote]

I can agree upon that, since U have endorsed my view of whether he was a hero or a looter, whose crimes paved the way for Islam to flourish in India. U also give strength to the notion that Islam was spread by means of sword too.

[quote]

Posted by diwana

Correction:
1-There is no 'secular' Raja in India. Just as there is no 'secular' India.

2- The intention of Pak Army was not to damage kaaba.

Destruction of Babri Masjid does not have any similarity with this.

3- Before Ghaznavi was even appeared in Somnath, many local hindus/Rajas had commited destroying/attacking/looting somnath pilgrims since it was considered as a place where money was flourishing.

His intention was not to gain money, if he did, he would have accepted the ransom offered by Brahmans.

[/quote]

India is secular nation. U can differ, but whole world recognizes India as such. But can U let me know why U view India as not secular? Is t his somekind of hindu bias or something else?

And good to see ur love for Mehmood. Let me again repeat a verse from Allama Iqbal, for U.

Na Woh Ishq Me Rahin Mastiyaan
Na Woh Husn Me Rahi Garmiyaan
Na Woh Gaznavi Me Tarap Rahi
Na Woh Kham Hai Zulf E Ayaz Me.

AS brothr Faris udeen stressed that Mehmood was not gay but friends. May I ask U guys what was the wisdom behind calling one friend as BANDA and another one as BANDANAWAZ? And how on earth could both share place in his (Allama's)couplet as lovers?

Peace to U all.

Eye Makeup!
64

^^ Raj_Ind you seems to have a good heart the way you condemn the Gujarat's anti-Muslim carnage.

There are many Muslims in Pakistan too (I would say majority) who believe in "love thy neighbor" regardless of his religion.

Going back to Ghaznavi, off course it was wrong on his part to destroy the temple. There cannot be any justification for his acts. Do you know that he had 'active' support of many Hindu rajahs during his campaigns?

The question to you is "Must we use 1000 years old mistakes to revive hostilities against each other?"

Does it really matter if Ghaznavi was a looter or a hero. He is dead for many centuries. Let God deal with his soul and punish or reward him based on his actions.

We all should be worried now about Muslims or Hindus destroying each other's temples in this day and age. That's all. We must deal with looters and heros of today. Don't you agree?

Can we learn an important lesson from Ghaznavi that

  1. Rulers of the Indian sub-continent must not quarrel with each other.
  2. Rulers of the Indian sub-continent must not invite Afghani warlords so as to destroy the other ruler?
  3. That India must not support Afghanistan's Northern Alliance.

Because if we don't learn from the past mistake, you know what will happen?

History Mystery
65

why? Do you mean India has to start supporting Taliban instead?

66

Why?

Because it is like one Hindu raja sleeping with Afghan warlords just to pit them against another local Hindu raja.

The end result of this monkey business is clear from the time of Kushanas. That one of the Afghan warlord will show up in Somnath for pillaging.

Hope you get the point.

Nopsee. support the local raja aka Pakistan instead.

History tells us that it hurts the Indian subcontinent when one of us invites the foreigners in our local disputes.

Why to go 1000's of years back. Even Brits were successful in India because one raja/nawab supported them in order to defeat the neighbor.

India and Pakistan must work closely to stop the tribalism and Islamism.

Value your local raja more than any foreigner. Why? because the defeat of local raja will end up destroying you too.

67

Let me add a few more to this

4) Rulers of a "corner" of Indian sub-continent must not attack Kashmir.
5) Rulers of a "corner" of Indian sub-continent must not support Khalistani militants.
6) Ruler os a "corner" of Indian sub-continent must not try to take Kashmir militarily .... it is not like anothe country in the sub-continent that they can drive them out of there.

We HAVE to learn from past mistakes ..... you know other wise what will happen ....... "Hoolbrooke" aye ga aur kahega " kitne aadmi thay" :D

68

I thought rule #1,2,3 covered your 4,5,6. However if you want to be specific, that's OK.

It will be not be just Hoolbrooke. It will be American + NATO army and there will be British East Company all over again.

So yes we must learn from the past mistakes of Rajas and Nawabs.

69

Awesome !! So you guys want to ink the deal now ?? :D

70

Don't see any actual reason to call India a secular state. But thanks for agreeing with this difference of opinion. I will not dwell on it in this thread.

You have conveniently removed other part of my post which was in par with the topic and refuted the notion that Ghaznavi by any means a 'looter'.

What about Hindu rajas who looted pilgrims BEFORE Ghaznavi?

You are discussing irrelevant matter to this thread.

If you must, then there is no evidence of sexual relation between Ghaznavi and Ayaz. Much of the information is described by historians who were not from India. Ayaz was some kind of unusual extremely obedient servant who captured Ghaznavi's attention a lot more than others. There are many events where Ayaz did something just to follow order and others did not. He is described to be very good looking and attractive man.

If you have Iqbal verses to support your argument then its fine. He also said Saare Jahan Se Accha Hindustan Hamaara. :-)

Again this is not the topic of discussion. Starting from alleged looting, and defeated in that argument one brings up hatred for Ghaznavi in a different manner, this is just too obvious.

71

[quote]

Posted by burqaposhx
^^ Raj_Ind you seems to have a good heart the way you condemn the Gujarat's anti-Muslim carnage.

There are many Muslims in Pakistan too (I would say majority) who believe in "love thy neighbor" regardless of his religion.

[/quote]

Thanks for ur kind words, but one only has to be human to condemn any kind of violence among human beings. And we all are.

And I agree with U that muslims in Pakistan too share same feelings.

[quote]

Going back to Ghaznavi, off course it was wrong on his part to destroy the temple. There cannot be any justification for his acts. Do you know that he had 'active' support of many Hindu rajahs during his campaigns?

[/quote]

Good to see that there is at least someone who doesnt selevtively oppose agression of any kind. And yes I know that there were some hindu rajas who supported or were sympathetic of him for obvious reasons. And I dont have any good feeling for them too. But this is rule of the agression game!! U always have some inside support in these kind of adventures. Iraq, and Afganitan are live example of that.

[quote]

The question to you is "Must we use 1000 years old mistakes to revive hostilities against each other?"

[/quote]

**NO WAY **Any sane person cant hold this opinion.

[quote]

Does it really matter if Ghaznavi was a looter or a hero. He is dead for many centuries. Let God deal with his soul and punish or reward him based on his actions.

[/quote]

It doesnt matter at all. I was here on this thread only when I noticed some hindu bashing and a brother making war cry. War hysteria is something which I cant resist bashing. Be it right wing hindus in my country or some fanatic muslims anywhere. I try to confront them as much as I can. Otherwise I was having a good time in Intikhab section of Urdu poetry sharing gazals and all. :D. And good to see that U too subscribe to my idea of letting GOD deal with anyone. Problem only arises when some religious bigots start acting agent of GOD. And they do nothing except violence and killings, and spreading hatred. Enough proof of how they view GOD.

[quote]

We all should be worried now about Muslims or Hindus destroying each other's temples in this day and age. That's all. We must deal with looters and heros of today. Don't you agree?

[/quote]

Absolutely. No one should be allowed to hurt religious sentiments of anyone. I m often crofonted by muslims who reminds me of Babri demolishion. I consider that unfortunate incident too as another blot on Indian face. But one must also remeber that right wing BJP, who was prime force behind demolishion, lost their government in the assembly election which happened right after Babri fiasco. That defines secular face of hindu-dominated India.

[quote]

Can we learn an important lesson from Ghaznavi that

  1. Rulers of the Indian sub-continent must not quarrel with each other.
  2. Rulers of the Indian sub-continent must not invite Afghani warlords so as to destroy the other ruler?
  3. That India must not support Afghanistan's Northern Alliance.

Because if we don't learn from the past mistake, you know what will happen?

[/quote]

Well I dont know exactly whether India is supporting Northern Alliance or not. But is they are doing that it may be to neutralize talibani thereat which is quiet evident from talibani hate-and-crush-India kind of statements. ur point one and two must be mutually agreed upon. no doubt about that.

Peace to U all.

72

Well that is what I beg to know from U. Why dont U see India as a secular state. Where it lacks ur parameters? If u dont want to give ur views upon a secular state on this thread, than we can start a new thread with the title “Is India a Secular State or Not?” Or any other title which suits U.

.

I removed the other parts coz I could not contest upon that. If Hindu bigots were already looting the temple than that didnt give right to anyone to come and join them. Two or more than two wrongs cant make one right. I hold on to my opinion, if America is an agressor in Afganitan and Iraq, than Mehmood is one too in India. Their excuse that Saddam was cruel to Iraqis or Talibaan were supressing Afgans doesnt make America Librators. Comparision is for ur convienence to judge between right and wrong.

Well this is ssomething we cant argue for long but only share our views on the subject. That we have already done.

I quoted Iqbal just coz he couldnt had got it wrong, considering that he was himself an extremely noble man. I remember the last line of one more verse from a poet unknown to me. it read as such,

…(First two lines I forgot):wink:

Wo ishq nahin hai kuch aur shai hai,

Sikhata hai Jo Gaznavi Ko Ayazi

And ya, who can forget Allama Iqbal’s beautiful creation, Tarana E Hind. What U must understand that there was some truth behind every verse of that tarana. Similarly there had to be some truth behind his seeing Gaznavi and Ayas as lovers. ALLAH knows best. All I wanted to pointed out is that a ruthless agressor cant be a hero, Leave alone a Muslim. Again U are free to differ. :slight_smile:

Show me one word which indicate an iota of hatred for Gaznavi. No brother, my religion doesnt teach me to hate anyone. it only teaches me to like or dislike. As Gandhi famously said. Paap se Ghrina(hate) karo, Papi se nahin.

So I hate any idea which suggest, lets invade and kill them who doesnt subscribe to our religious/political idea. Hence fierce rejection of Gaznavi/bush/zionists/rss/vhp/bjp…and the list is quiet long.

Peace to U all.

73

Has been discussed periodically or incidentally. No problem if repeated.

.

Wish you has said that you have no contest with what I posted in earlier post. We would have closed the discussion. The topic was if he was a looter and thats not found to be true. You agreed. And dragging it to another level has no justification.

You mixed up thoughts here and not worth spending time for now. We cannot discuss whole world in one thread. Simply speaking, not every ‘invasion’ is wrong or bad if you read the history.

Come on my friend. Mere bringing this part of Mehmood’s life had nothing to with if he was a looter or not.

Did you even get what this verse means? ** Woh Ishq nahin hai kuch aur shai hai.** What does that mean? Read what I wrote above in earlier post again sir. I better end this here too.

Read your posts. Bringing something in negative way beyond the topic of discussion means what? Love for Ghaznavi? Ok you ‘dislike’ his one or two acts. What about other positive things which you failed to discuss on the basis of 'disliking 'the person and NOT his acts?

And please do not bring anyone or his quotes here. I am very much familiar with what it actually means when it comes to conflicts.:slight_smile:

74

Re: mahmood ghaznavi a looter?

I must say I am thankful to mods for correcting the title of this thread.

75

wiki article about Northern alliance says that most of the countries(including US) support them both financially and militarily. So why Pak suspects India’s role alone? :faizy:

76

Because we suspect their role in the militancy in India :wink:

77

Re: mahmood ghaznavi a looter?

PAKISTAN ZINDA BAD
OUR`S HEROS PAINDABAD

DON`T ABUSE TO ANY ONE.DO RESPECT TAKE RESPECT

78

Re: mahmood ghaznavi a looter?

OUR PROPHET MUHAMMAD P.B.U.H SAID THAT
DON`T ABUSE THEIR GOD. THEY MAY BECOME ANGRY & IN REPLY ABUSE YOUR ALLAH.
SO IN THE ORDER OF THIS HADITH AVOID

79

Re: mahmood ghaznavi a looter?

sometimes i wonder what india would be like today without the brits, moghuls and all the rest of the looters. wondering, wondering..

80

Re: mahmood ghaznavi a looter?

This thread in ancient and should be locked...

If Raj_ind was still around he would doubtless agree with me.