lou dobbs on illegal immigration 'broken borders'

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
21

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration 'broken borders'

Fraudz All of them came via illegal means. The legal system is flawed, even a HB1 visa person gets payed lot less than an average American. These people in farm and fields are the extreme example of exploitation in America. It is run on money rather than talent or will. There are millions in America today living illegally and all of them want to have a life here, come out of dark shadows of law breakers and live a peaceful life. Send money home, bring their family here, have education and just live a life. The law does not give them that, all of the illegals are not criminals, they are hard working people and if used properly they are only going to help the American economy rather take jobs away from Americans.

22

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration 'broken borders'

*Fraudz All of them came via illegal means. *

not All, that would be like saying that all desis came illegally :)

*The legal system is flawed, even a HB1 visa person gets payed lot less than an average American. *

well on avg women get paid less then men, short ppl get paid less than tall ppl, and avg ppl get paid less than attractive people. an H1B does not get paid a 'lot less' than an avg american. Yes companies take advantage of them but there are alary bands or ranges that they have to pay the person in.

*These people in farm and fields are the extreme example of exploitation in America. *

and who put them in that situation? if they were legal they could demand fair wages. The farm owners who are takign advantage of them are only able to do this because the illegals have few other choices.

*It is run on money rather than talent or will. *

every place is run on money, however talent plays a big part as well. same for will.

*There are millions in America today living illegally and all of them want to have a life here, come out of dark shadows of law breakers and live a peaceful life. Send money home, bring their family here, have education and just live a life. *

true, they want the same life and privileges as people who entered ths country legally. People who waited their turn, people who went through all kinds of due diligence. Just because they WANT it does not mean they are entitled to it.

*The law does not give them that, all of the illegals are not criminals *

illegals are not criminals

errrr huh?

anyways, even if we forget the fact that they broke laws when they entered illegally and then they broke laws again when they worked illegally or worked using fake documentation.., should there not be a due process. or is it like open citizenship to all right away.

** they are hard working people and if used properly they are only going to help the American economy rather take jobs away from Americans.**

well not all of them are hard working ppl, the crime stats in hispanic areas are high, ask anyone with a city of high hispanic population. There is no control on what type of person comes in.

When you try to immigrate legally, you have to provide police reports for places u have lived for more than 12 months since u turned 18, you have to go through medical tests, and you have to either show you heave means that you will not become a pulic burden or your sponsors have the means to support you etc.

Why should the law be different for illegals? just because there are many of them? wat about ppl who behave in a responsible manner. There are plenty of ppl in other parts of the world who are in line for immigration and have the will to succeed and do all that other stuff u wrote u know, live a nice life, support their families etc etc. But the vast majority of them are going the legal route, mexicans are just takign advantage of the border.

for a US citizen of Pakistani background to spnsor his sibling, the time that it takes for the sponsored person's turn to come up, is a decade. The time period and process for someone to get an H1 and then have that converted into a greencard is a long process as well.

If You Could Be Anything In The World What Would You Be?
23

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration ‘broken borders’

with pleasure

24

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration 'broken borders'

so its a trade route..
..and then?

25

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration 'broken borders'

yes and WTO is just a trade organization.

26

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration 'broken borders'

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies in advance but I am totally against guest workers. It might be a good short term solution but it hasn't done any good to societies as a whole either in Europe or in Middle East. It is the guest worker program that makes ghettos. It is also the guest worker programs in Middle east that produce young people who have no sense of nationalism. They were born and lived in places like Kuwait, Qatar etc. maybe lived a year or two on vacation in Pakistan and yet they are told that they are Pakistanis.

The whole concept of American revolution was no taxation without representation. The guest workers all over the world are taxed, yet they have no representation. Ask a Pakistani who has spent almost all his life in UAE what representation he has? NOTHING. Without representation they are not part of the society but an outcasts and we have invented another way to to enslave people.

And the reason why 'Mexicans do the jobs no one else would' is because those jobs pay nothing. Its easier to be on welfare than to work for $5.15 an hour.

I say increase the minimum wage and increase it based on inflation (a ballot amendment in Colorado this year), jack up the penalty for those who hire illegal immigrants, fund the freaking INS rather than building fences, increase quota on skilled and unskilled workers but if they are living here for more than 10 years they need to be moved towards citizenship. Its Inhumane and undemocratic to slave people for their poverty and then think that we are giving them an American dream.

27

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration 'broken borders'

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies in advance but I am totally against guest workers. It might be a good short term solution but it hasn't done any good to societies as a whole either in Europe or in Middle East. It is the guest worker program that makes ghettos. It is also the guest worker programs in Middle east that produce young people who have no sense of nationalism. They were born and lived in places like Kuwait, Qatar etc. maybe lived a year or two on vacation in Pakistan and yet they are told that they are Pakistanis.

The diff ahmedjee is that in those countries there was no route to permenent residency and citizenship. I dont know about UAE but I lived in KSA and ppl living all their lives there were not citizens, could not start businesses, could not buy houses. so comparing that to US is a little incorrect.

I am in support of a path to citizenship, but its not one of those, u hop jump and skip across the border and whammo u are a citizen. thats simply not right.

The whole concept of American revolution was no taxation without representation. The guest workers all over the world are taxed, yet they have no representation. Ask a Pakistani who has spent almost all his life in UAE what representation he has? NOTHING. Without representation they are not part of the society but an outcasts and we have invented another way to to enslave people.

dude...what representation does a native have in UAE or KSA? NOTHING.
and what representation does a permanent resident in USA have? NOTHING.
what about ppl on student visas? NOTHING
what about ppl here who are here as assylum seekers? NOTHING

so what makes these illegal mexicans so special?

*And the reason why 'Mexicans do the jobs no one else would' is because those jobs pay nothing. Its easier to be on welfare than to work for $5.15 an hour. *

yeah but given the opportunity, somalians would do the same, actually go to Minneapolis and see for yourself..

They are doing these jobs because they are unskilled, illegal and most of them can not even speak the language, and thus take what they can get. Go to any poor country and ask some unskilled person there whether he would like to come to US and be a busboy or a landscape employee or a dishwasher, and you would have a line that is miles long.

*I say increase the minimum wage and increase it based on inflation (a ballot amendment in Colorado this year), *

agreed

*jack up the penalty for those who hire illegal immigrants, *

agreed

*fund the freaking INS rather than building fences, *

agreed

*increase quota on skilled and unskilled workers but if they are living here for more than 10 years they need to be moved towards citizenship. *

they need to eventually be moved towards citizenship, after having the same sort of background checks and legal and offical paperwork that the law abiding ppl have gone through. oh yeah and a fine for breaking the laws also.

Its Inhumane and undemocratic to slave people for their poverty and then think that we are giving them an American dream.

I am 100% in agreement with you, all of this needs to take place, and in addition the flow of illegal immigrants needs to stop as well. and I agree if demand dries up..supply will have to stop or decrease, but increased border security is needed as well.

28

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration 'broken borders'

PA instead of being oh so secretive and all, why dont you just spell it out. Not all of us are oh so aware of the bigger picture in the background, so come out and state it, or would that blow your cover as a mild mannered desi techie :D

29

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration 'broken borders'

I hate frikin' Lou Dobbs who has whipped this whole issue into a lather.

For decades we have allowed "illegal immigration" with a wink and a nod. The fines and punishments were a slap on the wrist, no real effort was made to protect the border, and not nearly enough immigration officers were hired to really address the problem. As a result there were people to pick our crops, pave our roads, build our houses, mow our lawns, and clean our motels.

The one thing that our country was founded on was the fact that all men are created equal. By creating a second class underground economy that ignores the basic rights of man we have subverted the creators of this country. The people who are here are here because of our tacit approval. We let them in, we hired them, and we treated them like less than human because they were illegal. 99% of these people are the hardest working, honest decent people who want nothing more than a better life. Bully for them.

I am all for a wall at the border. Hire more border patrol agents. But the people who are here now are here because we let them come. So set up a guest worker program, which would lead to amnesty and citizenship. These people have paid their dues to this country. Weed out the criminals, and focus on the trouble makers, not the decent people who simply want something better. That is the compassionate, conservative, christian thing to do. Respect hardworking peaceful people, and welcome them to the country.

We have more effective enforcement of jaywalking, public smoking and spitting on the sidewalk than immigration on our southern border. It's our fault, not the poor damn people who understood that our wink and a nod meant that it was OK to come here without the protections afforded citizens and other workers. Shut down the second class economy, it is not worthy of this country.

30

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration ‘broken borders’

It’s strange that u’re concerned with Illegal immigration but wouldn’t acknowledge the systematic erosion of our borders. Of course I’m not privy to details; the public isn’t. But the indicators are all there.

Read this. It looks like the Blueprint that is being implemented (opens PDF)

EB makes fun of me =(
31

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration 'broken borders'

OG

so you hate Lou Dobbs, but how is anything that you are proposing different than anything that he has proposed?

32

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration 'broken borders'

For one, I think that "Amnesty" is a fait accompli. We have nearly 11Million people here that are "illegal". What everyone knows, but nobody wants to admit is that we will never do anything about all of those people. We might as well implement an amnesty program, preceded by a criminal backround check. Let those people that are here apply for citizenship while simultaneously closing the border.

Of course people will not realize that their produce cost is going to rise 20% as a result, because farm wages will rise rather quickly if the border is closed. But getting all of those 11 million into the social security program will be a huge benefit to the solvency of the program going forward. Once people have protections as citizens, they will move out beyond the barrios that provide cultural cover.

A huge part of our economy is dependent on these folks. Lou has not told anybody about the true economic imact of the current situation, nor the conditions that people are living in as a result of being underground citizens.

sawal
33

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration 'broken borders'

Lol remember when Dubya's main bit was 'Compassionate and Conservative', what a riot, lol.

And let's be honest, the hardcore Chrisitans who have siezed control in the Conservative movement aren't very 'Christ like'.

34

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration 'broken borders'

OG,yet again you are not saying anything different than Lou. the conditions ppl are living in or the economic impact is details..and are forces opposite to each other, if you want to improve the quality fo life of these ppl, then the economic impact of higher costs has to be faced, but that is the right thing to do.

Yes have a path to permanent residency, but with the background checks as suggested. with sufficient time lapse ..just like ppl who get work visas get have to wait to get their permenent resident cards, and permanent residents wait to become citizens. Depending on where you are just getting the citizenship after application can take years.

one of my relatives, a federal employee, applied for citizenship after being a permanent resident for a number of years and had met all requirements and time .. i think it was 5 years after getting green card..and about the same amount of time to get the work visa converted into a green card, this person applied 2 years ago, and still has not heard anything back. My cousin who was sponsored for work visa by his company back in 1999, got his green card just recently, and will have to wait a number of years before he is eligible to apply for citizenship, and my own parets who were spnsored for immigration by my aunt, had to wait 10 years before there number came up, and are still in immiration process, 2 years after their number came up. My dad has to provide police reports from every place he has lived for more than a year.. thats would be about a dozen countries.

The point here is that US has a process, and the process was not followed, maybe it needs to be adapted and expedited, but there needs to be due diligence and there needs to be a process.

and yeah price for things will go up, but it will be fair. right now the situation is not fair to anyone, whether its businesses competing against businesses with illegals working for them. This is huge in landscaping, snow removal, building type industries. The contractor I work with complained that he could not beat the prices i was getting from someone else because he pays fair wages and with the prices others were asking, he would not even break even. The victims are not just the illegals who have put themselves in this situation.

now as far as the culprits go, it is our govt for not enforcing its laws on illegal entry as well as on illegal hiring

and moving forward, steps should be taken so we dont end up where we are again and have to deal with the same challenge yet again.

35

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration 'broken borders'

utd but you have seen the compassionate ones patroling the border, u know the minutemen :) If I recall certain compassionate conseratives are all praises for them also..

36

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration 'broken borders'

Oh I remember that Fraudia.

To bad for the minutemen patrolling the boarder is the most boring job in world.

37

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration 'broken borders'

The problem seems to be that people like to increase government rather support business and than they call themselves American. The point is it is not government’s job to interfere in Immigration matters; they have expanded this industry too much and have no plan to tackle it. Building a fence will not help, increasing troops at border will not help. The point is business need people who will work for them and there are people who are desperately in need. Why is American government interfering in the business is beyond my understanding in a country that believes in capitalism. I mean set up a law where these workers are dealt normaly like everywhere and the job is done.

People like Lou Dobbs compare and contrast and use extreme examples to support their nonsense agenda that is hidden on hate for immigrants. The fact is those illegal have not broken any law. I mean working without permission does not make you a criminal, feeding your family does not make a unlawful and going to a hospital to treat yourself does not make you any guilty.

American history is filled with instances where people were brought up from different countries to build road, bridges and tournaments. Just after 9/11 there was a winter Olympics in Salt Lake, Utah and who help get the job done, Illegals and just like that we ignore their contribution?

38

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration 'broken borders'

Fraudz, my objection with Lou is that he paints this as a hysterical breathless crisis. It is not. We went through a General amnesty under Reagan. For a while there was hope that NAFTA would expand a better quality of life across the border, but that has not substantially materialized, as India and China labor is far more educated organized and reliable.

Lou paints these immigrants as the "Enemy". They are not. Lou almost never looks at the working conditions, and the underground life these immigrants lead. He will show border scene after border scene to "dramatize" the issue, but he never will tell you that immigrant labor saves the average household $800 per year in food costs. Lou paints Amnesty as giving up, as if we will be able to find 11 million people and give them the boot. You should see the alarmist mailings that I got from my local Republican Congressman, it makes the border look like the DMZ between North and South Korea. Lou demonizes these poor people as "criminals", when most of them are extremely aware that any legal trouble may get them shipped back to a worse circumstance. More over there is a lot of unreported crime because people know that these folks will not call the police and jeopardize their status. Lou is hyping this whole thing for ratings, that and the "oussourcing of America", and the "assault on the middle class". His pseudo populist agenda is really just hype for ratings. All of the sudden CNN has declared a "Broken Government", when in actuality the government by almost any reasonable measure is just fine. The more hystrionic Lou gets the more they can charge for Commercials, and the more Lou breathlessly rants the more peoples blood pressure goes up, and we all worry that the sky is falling. Lou is the chief Chicken Little.

39

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration ‘broken borders’

[quote=“Man with a Plan”]

**The problem seems to be that people like to increase government rather support business and than they call themselves American. The point is it is not government’s job to interfere in Immigration matters; **

huh? it is not the govts job to interfere in immigratin matters?

**they have expanded this industry too much and have no plan to tackle it. Building a fence will not help, increasing troops at border will not help. The point is business need people who will work for them and there are people who are desperately in need. **

no one is asking a fence on the border. Yes business needs ppl, and there are ppl desperately in need, therefore there needs to be a proper process so people can come in legally and earn fair wages, otherwise ppl would continue to come in and work for pennies and that has implications on all aspects from crime, to social services, to health care etc.

Why is American government interfering in the business is beyond my understanding in a country that believes in capitalism. I mean set up a law where these workers are dealt normaly like everywhere and the job is done.

who is asking for anything else? what is being asked for is to set up a law, a process for ppl to come and work legally and for them to get paid fairly

People like Lou Dobbs compare and contrast and use extreme examples to support their nonsense agenda that is hidden on hate for immigrants. **

Lou dobbs is talking about the impact it has on anything from schools ot healthcare etc, how is that based in hate for immigrants? it is based on noting problems that illegal immigration brings, not just to the illegal immigrants themselves but for businesses who are trying to play fair.

**The fact is those illegal have not broken any law. **

entering into the country illegally or staying illegally is indeed breaking a law, ask any immigration lawyer.

**I mean working without permission does not make you a criminal, **

yes it does, its the law that states that you have to have the proper work authorization to work. a criminal is a person who breaks a law.

ppl entering and working illegally have broken two laws have they not? so how are they not criminals? yes they may not be thugs and thieves and robebrs, but they have commited a crime by breaking these laws. same goes for those who use fake documents, forgery and all is a crime too. is it not? and when they work on a cash only basis, and thus there is no reporting for income and all, that is a crime also..so yes they are breaking laws and thus they are criminals, and they are criminals because of the situation they have put themselves into, you or I did not go drag them from the other side of the border and ask them to work under the table for pennies, they crossed the border illegally to do that.

feeding your family does not make a unlawful

but the ways and means in which you feed your family does make it unlawful.

** and going to a hospital to treat yourself does not make you any guilty.**

yeah but then not paying the charges due to the hospital makes you guilty..

**American history is filled with instances where people were brought up from different countries to build road, bridges and tournaments. **

sure, american history also has slavery in it, should we just start that again?

Just after 9/11 there was a winter Olympics in Salt Lake, Utah and who help get the job done, Illegals and just like that we ignore their contribution?

they did not do this country a favour by their ‘contributions’ their intent was not to contribute but to have a better life, so when ppl throw this contributions business…there were tons of ppl who are citizens or legally here who ‘contributed’ as well.

Just because your work had some positive impact or was a component of something bigger does not mean all is forgiven and we owe you something. that entire argument is bunk.

fine ppl worked, worked hard, were used by criminals who hired illegals, or those stupid enough to not check papers which they are required by law

So, US govt neds to have a policy that allows workers to come in, for there to be some screening, otherwise mullah XYZ shows up as pedro sanchez and no one knows who he is where he is and what he does.

Border control for security purposes, and immigration reform to cut the illegal demand from employers, and thus shut off the illegal supply. additionally imigration reform to give some legal worker status to people already here, but they need to meet the same conditions as everyone else who goes through a legal route.

what is wrong with this approach?

40

Re: lou dobbs on illegal immigration 'broken borders'

OG every journalist in the country and every politician has hyped up stuff, remember the cheerleader in chief and the WMD?

The point though is, is this a problem? is this s growing problem? what are the implications? what are the solutions?

yeah it may not be as hysterical as ppl may make it sound like, but.. is it worth tackling?

PS: chief chicken little is still W :)