Watching yesterdays episode of capital talk, felt very sad. Hamid Mir was interviewing people in Charsadda and Peshawar and majority were saying they think its US behind these bomb blasts.
On an individual basis i have convinced many people that i know, but, it seems a lot of work remains to be done. Our people still do not know who there enemy is.
Re: Lot Of Work Is Required
I think they are smarter than that. They just don't want to come out and admit who the real enemy is, lest they get attacked. It is safer to blame Americans Indians and Israelis.
Yup it may be a lot more than lot more
Re: Lot Of Work Is Required
^I agree with that..............also I think its part of human nature too tht we try to shift the blame on somebody else rather than taking the responsibility on ourselves to clear the mess that we have built arnd.................having said that, it is not wrong to cuss the USA for these problems either.............if i was interviewed on TV then i'd probably condemn USA too.......
Re: Lot Of Work Is Required
We are in a mess because we have been dismissing what people on the ground say and believe in.
Re: Lot Of Work Is Required
so the US is doing the bombings then kakaballi?
Re: Lot Of Work Is Required
^ I don't know. CIA's operations over the years are a good indicator of what they are capable of. Its not just a lot of people in Pakistan, I have even met a few very capable people from South India and Australia who believe USA is playing very dirty in the region. I am yet to be convinced USA doesn't have an active destructive role here. With ever increasing casualties in this stupid war and pressures from allied countries, USA did need help from Pakistan military for not-so-embarrassing exit from Afghanistan. For me, it doesn't really matter who is behind the bombings, but that force would be badly hurt if we can get hold of those who are training and brainwashing these bombers.
Regardless of that, you do not go and start a military operation within a country WITHOUT a propaganda initiative convincing people that it is in their own interests. People living in Karachi, Lahore or USA might be convinced that it is the only way to go, but those who are directly effected by the conflict are NOT. So, I agree with Iconoclast that a lot of work is needed in terms of convincing people and trying to get them on our side and that work should have begun much earlier than the actual military operation.
Watching yesterdays episode of capital talk, felt very sad. Hamid Mir was interviewing people in Charsadda and Peshawar and majority were saying they think its US behind these bomb blasts.
On an individual basis i have convinced many people that i know, but, it seems a lot of work remains to be done. Our people still do not know who there enemy is.
the pakistani people are being too lenient with the role played by pak fauj in creating this situation. i suppose they, like you iconoclast, cannot comprehend what has just happend in pakistan.
there was a small amount of evidence, a few years ago, that pak military took the steps they did to 'protect' pakistan from a bullish, angry america. all that has fizzled away im afraid to the more plausible suggestion that pak military has now taken this opportunity to become allied with powerful and rich (partly including india) at the detriment of its own national interests.
it is indeed hard to live as a '''possible''' pariah state, but to know pak military chose to go the civil war route is dumbfounding. its a new model of diplomacy that i, personally, find alien.
yes the militants are barbaric, but what rules of engagement can we expect of a tribal, uneducated people that have had a war enforced upon them? are we really so naive as to expect these people to not bomb our cities if we war with them?
i, like the majority of pakistanis, would have liked to have seen pakistan make a real effort to end this war when the democratic came in. the militant halted all attacks for three months whilst the new government formulated its strategy. then the confirmation came when gilani went to the white house and said 'this is our war' a notion the pakistani people know isnt true. the pak army propaganda (zaid hamid, ahmed qureshi etc) is no better and cannot bury all the facts from this situation
who is to blame for the terrorism in pakistan? - talibs, both afghani and pakistani
who is to blame for creating and maintaining the environment in which terror is thriving? - US, pakistan state
pakistanis dont need convincing, they need solutions.
Re: Lot Of Work Is Required
^true words........
the pakistani people are being too lenient with the role played by pak fauj in creating this situation. i suppose they, like you iconoclast, cannot comprehend what has just happend in pakistan.
there was a small amount of evidence, a few years ago, that pak military took the steps they did to 'protect' pakistan from a bullish, angry america. all that has fizzled away im afraid to the more plausible suggestion that pak military has now taken this opportunity to become allied with powerful and rich (partly including india) at the detriment of its own national interests.
it is indeed hard to live as a '''possible''' pariah state, but to know pak military chose to go the civil war route is dumbfounding. its a new model of diplomacy that i, personally, find alien.
yes the militants are barbaric, but what rules of engagement can we expect of a tribal, uneducated people that have had a war enforced upon them? are we really so naive as to expect these people to not bomb our cities if we war with them?
i, like the majority of pakistanis, would have liked to have seen pakistan make a real effort to end this war when the democratic came in. the militant halted all attacks for three months whilst the new government formulated its strategy. then the confirmation came when gilani went to the white house and said 'this is our war' a notion the pakistani people know isnt true. the pak army propaganda (zaid hamid, ahmed qureshi etc) is no better and cannot bury all the facts from this situation
who is to blame for the terrorism in pakistan? - talibs, both afghani and pakistani
who is to blame for creating and maintaining the environment in which terror is thriving? - US, pakistan state
pakistanis dont need convincing, they need solutions.
shardmanny, other than not discouraging the Mullah brigade to engage youth in combat in Afghan war during 80s, i don't know what could Pak army should have done differently.
We are part of a world community and not a tribal society at present. No country in the world allows its land to be used as a separate state. Taliban have shown that they will never renounce violence or submit to authority of state. What options could army have in such a case. Rather i feel army is still a bit lenient and late in the current operation.
There IS no other "workable" solution, unless you beleive in supernatural.
shardmanny, other than not discouraging the Mullah brigade to engage youth in combat in Afghan war during 80s, i don't know what could Pak army should have done differently.
We are part of a world community and not a tribal society at present. No country in the world allows its land to be used as a separate state. Taliban have shown that they will never renounce violence or submit to authority of state. What options could army have in such a case. Rather i feel army is still a bit lenient and late in the current operation.
There IS no other "workable" solution, unless you beleive in supernatural.
I disagree with you Icono...I don't want to buy this theory that these Suicide attacks by militant religious extremist cannot be stopped. Karachi administration has shown that this can be done. Remember a few years ago Karachi was worst hit from secretarian attacks on mosques. We can blame MQM for a lot of things, but they have protected Karachi citizens from this terrorism in last two years where not a single incident has occured, inspite of a large Pushtun population...
Why these incidents are happening in Punjab and NWFP only? Because the provincial governments have no real intention of taking these religious outfits head on! These are actually crime syndicates working behind the facade of religious outfits. Punjab/NWFP governments have failed to nail them. Infact they are afraid of these people and do not want them to turn against them. I don't believe taliban from Waziristan can act without local support. It is this local support which need to crushed in Punjab and NWFP with an iron hand. We have to declare them as our enemies and no justification can be accepted on what-so-ever-basis to justify these acts against innocent people!
Re: Lot Of Work Is Required
^a handful of the would-be suicide bombers caught have been the work of citizens and if i remember correctly than in one case it was the Police who nabbed one....................where r our intelligence agencies who we were told were the "world beaters"?
I disagree with you Icono...I don't want to buy this theory that these Suicide attacks by militant religious extremist cannot be stopped. Karachi administration has shown that this can be done. Remember a few years ago Karachi was worst hit from secretarian attacks on mosques. We can blame MQM for a lot of things, but they have protected Karachi citizens from this terrorism in last two years where not a single incident has occured, inspite of a large Pushtun population...
Why these incidents are happening in Punjab and NWFP only? Because the provincial governments have no real intention of taking these religious outfits head on! These are actually crime syndicates working behind the facade of religious outfits. Punjab/NWFP governments have failed to nail them. Infact they are afraid of these people and do not want them to turn against them. I don't believe taliban from Waziristan can act without local support. It is this local support which need to crushed in Punjab and NWFP with an iron hand. We have to declare them as our enemies and no justification can be accepted on what-so-ever-basis to justify these acts against innocent people!
Yazdi u misunderstood me, i said there is no other workable solution other than fighting Taliban.
I don't agree that NWFP government is not serious against Talibs, rather i beleive ANP governments full support to war against Taliban has been instrumental in success of Swat operation.
^ I don't know. CIA's operations over the years are a good indicator of what they are capable of. Its not just a lot of people in Pakistan, I have even met a few very capable people from South India and Australia who believe USA is playing very dirty in the region. I am yet to be convinced USA doesn't have an active destructive role here. With ever increasing casualties in this stupid war and pressures from allied countries, USA did need help from Pakistan military for not-so-embarrassing exit from Afghanistan. For me, it doesn't really matter who is behind the bombings, but that force would be badly hurt if we can get hold of those who are training and brainwashing these bombers.
Regardless of that, you do not go and start a military operation within a country WITHOUT a propaganda initiative convincing people that it is in their own interests. People living in Karachi, Lahore or USA might be convinced that it is the only way to go, but those who are directly effected by the conflict are NOT. So, I agree with Iconoclast that a lot of work is needed in terms of convincing people and trying to get them on our side and that work should have begun much earlier than the actual military operation.
A bit of confusing talk here. A lot of work is needed in terms of convincing people, but our problem is that we have been dismissing what (as yet unconvinced) people on the ground say which seems to suggest that we shouldnt be convincing them.
Re: Lot Of Work Is Required
^ yes, dismissing them in terms of not listening and talking to them.
Their logic goes like since USA is behind all the mess we are in, we should not be fighting taliban but instead help them get rid of the infidel forces from the area. They need convincing that even if it is USA behind the bombing, it is still in our benefit going after the sources of training and hideouts of these suicide bombers.
As of now, a lot of people, specially in nwfp, believe that we are fighting america's war. We just go on with the military option without a parallel propaganda that it is war of our own survival. If we don't, the hatred for Pakistan army would continue to grow, specially in the areas badly effected by the conflict.
Re: Lot Of Work Is Required
why is this so complicated? Can't the military tell those parts of ISI that are not fully committed to fight the terrorists to get in or get out? Can't the military stop terrorists from being trained in the camps? Can't the military remove themselves from industrial and real-estate sectors and remain a mere military? if they do that there will be true credibility to the government, instead of the hitherto "you govern but at the pleasure of the military".
That will also restore peace in the entire region since PA will not have to fabricate an existential threat by India which in turn will resolve the need for the artificial issue of Kashmir.
Yazdi u misunderstood me, i said there is no other workable solution other than fighting Taliban.
Icono... I have no doubt as far as the intentions of our army our concerned at the moment inspite of their past policies of nurturing militants as stretegic depth. They are making huge sacrifices to protect us.
But you have to understand that this war has to be fought on two fronts. We have fight them in their strongholds as well as we have to destroy their local support if we want to protect our innocent umarmed civilians. There is no way these taliban can operate in our cities without local support and I am afraid our political provincial governments are not doing enough to combat this local support!
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I don't agree that NWFP government is not serious against Talibs, rather i beleive ANP governments full support to war against Taliban has been instrumental in success of Swat operation.
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I am not too sure about the ANP NWFP government and the extent of their resolve to challenge the local support of these taliban. I was in a high profile wedding in Peshawar a few months ago and met the ANP leadership personally. I can tell you first hand that they consider actions against these local partners of taliban as actions against Pukhtuns. They take all this in an ethnic colour. My stand is that whoever is attacking or helping these attacks on our civilians should not be tolerated on what-so-ever-basis if we want to have any fruitful result in this war!
Beleive me it is not a tribal war as these animals have killed most of the tribal leaders and elders through suicide attacks on jirga meetings. It's not an ethnical war as there majority of these animals fighting are non Pukhtoons. People like IK and others who say that we shouild not fight these animals forget that any attempt of peace making with them failed badly in the past. They used these peace deals with our army just to regroup, make themselves stronger and attack more heavily. Any attempt to make peace deals again will be fatal. the only way is zero tolerance on what-so-ever-basis against these enemies of Pakistan and Pakistanis.
Icono... I have no doubt as far as the intentions of our army our concerned at the moment inspite of their past policies of nurturing militants as stretegic depth. They are making huge sacrifices to protect us.
But you have to understand that this war has to be fought on two fronts. We have fight them in their strongholds as well as we have to destroy their local support if we want to protect our innocent umarmed civilians. There is no way these taliban can operate in our cities without local support and I am afraid our political provincial governments are not doing enough to combat this local support!
I am not too sure about the ANP NWFP government and the extent of their resolve to challenge the local support of these taliban. I was in a high profile wedding in Peshawar a few months ago and met the ANP leadership personally. I can tell you first hand that they consider actions against these local partners of taliban as actions against Pukhtuns. They take all this in an ethnic colour. My stand is that whoever is attacking or helping these attacks on our civilians should not be tolerated on what-so-ever-basis if we want to have any fruitful result in this war!
Beleive me it is not a tribal war as these animals have killed most of the tribal leaders and elders through suicide attacks on jirga meetings. It's not an ethnical war as there majority of these animals fighting are non Pukhtoons. People like IK and others who say that we shouild not fight these animals forget that any attempt of peace making with them failed badly in the past. They used these peace deals with our army just to regroup, make themselves stronger and attack more heavily. Any attempt to make peace deals again will be fatal. the only way is zero tolerance on what-so-ever-basis against these enemies of Pakistan and Pakistanis.
I don't know Yazdi what exactly are we discussing here. I agree with what you said that the war has to be fought both against local support and the terrorist training grounds in tribal area. Am i missing something.
Re: Lot Of Work Is Required
And regarding arny's support to Taliban during 90's, we can now see that it was a mistake(hind-site is always 20-20) but i don't think army had any other option at that time, because Indian influence in Afghanistan was growing by the day at that time, India with help of Iran were supporting Northern Alliance.
Definitely Zia had the option not to fight American War in Afghanistan. He and his hawaris like Akhtar Rehman and co, smoked over cholistan desert, should not have raised slogans like jihad against kufr and recruit Osama to do the dirty work. Malown dictator actually did not realize and never thought that one day he would be the victim of same fraud he committed and played with the sentiments of most vulnerable people and destroyed the future of Pakistani generations.
Corrupt Mush also had the option. Why he sh!t in his pants when Caesar asked him whether “you are with us or against us”. The best option for him was to resign and handed over the rule to judge of Supreme Court and announced elections in 90 days. Caesar would not have dared bambooing him and his generals after his resignation. Army should have behaved neutral and could have avoided 180 degree turn around for Taliban for sake of future generations. Now the damage seems to be permanent.
I think they are smarter than that. They just don't want to come out and admit who the real enemy is, lest they get attacked. It is safer to blame Americans Indians and Israelis.
Yup it may be a lot more than lot more
Why blame American Indians? The first nations probably don't even know where is Pakistan.