Loopholes in Religion

[Monk]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@Theorist

Experience. Just because we are unable to see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Even if you could somehow document the existence of evil eye and Black magic, people will not believe and you will lose all credibility of your claim. That's just how it works. It is extremely difficult to make someone see the unseen. Yet we are programmed to believe in the unseen as long as others believe it too.

I have experienced things I would never believe existed before. So I am not sure anymore whether or not we are ALL meant to have the same experience.

what did you see/hear ?

[Monk]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@philosophy

very good answer. experience.

but doesn't this just sound way too complicated for no reason? all a concoction of our minds? for me it's this way and for you it's that way and it still exists...but only sometimes :S

If some one made a claim that some thing did not happen ..or never happens.. all we need one credible evidence that it did happen.

[MangoMan]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@philosophy

so much to say on all of this but,

-how do you measure love and then multiply it by 60

Well even if you don't measure, compare or do arithmetic with love, it still doesn't make sense to me that some who loves you will burn you in hell forever.

[Monk]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@MangoMan

Well even if you don't measure, compare or do arithmetic with love, it still doesn't make sense to me that some who loves you will burn you in hell forever.

perhaps thats way he tell you over and over and over.... to come to him... listen to him..
Do you want to be transgresses all your life and still wanting him to love you ?
I think he still does... once you ask for forgiveness.. you will get it...

He made us.. perhaps he knows not every one is moved by beauty of the ideas... some people need to be told there is punishment if they are up to no good.

[MangoMan]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@""Monk""

a-Where did you get word satisfaction from?

Well, its just a guess. If something pleases him, he must be feeling satisfied with it. Anyway, the word satisfaction isn’t important here. What is important is the reason for which he wants to be worshiped.

@""Monk""

b- birds, trees, stars every thing is worhiping Allah… are they doing* wazu *and saying tasbeeh ?? NO.
They follow what they are made to do… only thing which could NOT do what it was made to do was human…
So we came with manual… lion bear… see dont need manual… because they did not take up the task of “choosing”
Human did… so…

I doubt birds and animals don’t chose. They ‘think’, they make their choices, they pick up their fights, they make decisions all the time. Sorry but a manual is like a book that teaches me how to use something. But if someone gives me a book and tells me follow the instructions that I have written in this book or I will beat you to death, that’s something else.

@""Monk""

Some people made religion… some came from God… God update religion as humanity grew.. some people CHOSE not follow.. updated versions… see how option of choosing(will) come into play… if we were like other creatures… we would go to sleep at night.. next morning we be all new religion.. but.. again we were giving option of choice…

As humanity grew? Like what? You mean first, we are apes, neanderthals etc? But religions don’t believe in evolution. If you mean how societies changed, then I think our societies changed a lot since the tribal societies of 1400 years ago. Why no more updates? The point here that I don’t understand is “what is the ‘change’ that necessitates ‘software’ updates?”

[quote=““Monk””]

Protects from what? calamities? accidents? they happen all the time and people get amputated, killed.

I am sorry, I am not trying to offend anyone here. Just trying to understand religion.

[bella88]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@MangoMan

As humanity grew? Like what? You mean first, we are apes, neanderthals etc? But religions don't believe in evolution. If you mean how societies changed, then I think our societies changed a lot since the tribal societies of 1400 years ago. Why no more updates? The point here that I don't understand is "what is the 'change' that necessitates 'software' updates?"

something i always wonder too.

[Monk]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@MangoMan

Well, its just a guess. If something pleases him, he must be feeling satisfied with it. Anyway, the word satisfaction isn't important here. What is important is the reason for which he wants to be worshiped.

So we move on..
One point I like to make though. Allah wants us to think and reflect. Quran ask to do it over and over.. one thing quran does not want us to do.. is trying to imagine allah... because we are not capable of... How we could comprehend some thing.. who with out putting labour and machine on work can create universe.

[quote]

I doubt birds and animals don't chose. They 'think', they make their choices, they pick up their fights, they make decisions all the time.

[/quote]

Bird making decision, is like us walking or swimming... like that decision is more like machine instruction level.
Bird dont go greedy out of proportion.. they dont kill out of proportion.
They could not bring earth to extinction.

[quote]

Sorry but a manual is like a book that teaches me how to use something. But if someone gives me a book and tells me follow the instructions that I have written in this book or I will beat you to death, that's something else.

[/quote]

No its not like that... neither its simple like that... It has depth like no other book. I speak like no other book... That part you have to do.. with out reading it for your self.. you cant see all that..
He made us he knows us... after reading the hell fire.. it shakes my soul... 15 min later ... I am going about my usual business.. like a bird :D

He knows us....

[quote]

As humanity grew? Like what? You mean first, we are apes, neanderthals etc? But religions don't believe in evolution. If you mean how societies changed, then I think our societies changed a lot since the tribal societies of 1400 years ago. Why no more updates? The point here that I don't understand is "what is the 'change' that necessitates 'software' updates?"

[/quote]

Yes humanity grew... all this little time consuming.
But search for "ten commandments"
you will see how things were simple and straight forward back then.....
then when it was time.... quran was given to human kind..
It does not break 10 commandment, previous law.. but sort of build upon them.. like next course.

[quote]

Protects from what? calamities? accidents? they happen all the time and people get amputated, killed.

I am sorry, I am not trying to offend anyone here. Just trying to understand religion.
[/QUOTE]

Think about every thing under his control... like every atom..
Still I am walking talking eating... so its his merry on me.. That every thing conspire in proper proportion to make me happen... made my environment happen.

I have to so some where... but please ask more questions..
also I might update this post... please look for "updated by monk"

[Monk]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@bella88

something i always wonder too.

now I have no future in this thread

see for example… mangoman… now bella came… my enviornment change.. now I would have hard time keeping to point..
see when things work… we always thank him.. when they dont we still thank him..
that only means he has diffetrnt plan now.

ps : :hi: bella

[Monk]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

next thing would be southie :D

[Theorist]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@philosophy

very good answer. experience.

but doesn't this just sound way too complicated for no reason? all a concoction of our minds? for me it's this way and for you it's that way and it still exists...but only sometimes :S

It is not complicated for no reason. The unseen has always been complicated and this is why people should be free to believe what they want. It has been the source of hope, faith, and fear. Believe what you will. You may or may not experience anything at all.

[Theorist]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@Monk

what did you see/hear ?

If I had a nickel for every time I get asked that question on GS, I would have about 15 cents. :D

in summary, I experienced what you would call Jinnat and an overall highly increased intuition. Intuition that is so strong that I cannot ignore. If I ignore, something happens later that tells me I should have listened to my hunches.

[MangoMan]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@Monk

Allah wants us to think and reflect...

What does he get when he gets what he wants?

@Monk

Bird making decision, is like us walking or swimming... like that decision is more like machine instruction level. Bird dont go greedy out of proportion.. they dont kill out of proportion. They could not bring earth to extinction.

But the earth is like an invisible speck of dust when compared to the size of the whole universe. I think GOD created the universe. So in the grand scheme of things, human beings can bring the universe to extinction. Their actions do not have a bigger impact on the whole universe than the impact of the actions of birds on the earth.

[Krypton]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

If I were so omni-everything. I'd just wanna sit back and marvel at how complex humans are and I'd focus a lot of time on other animals and planets and universes too. Not who's having sex with who.

Alas, I'm just human and perhaps don't get the joy/purpose behind punishing and being discreet and almost impossible to objectively understand. I'd make it clear for everyone and then see if they follow or not. You give us brains that think and then expect blond faith that's not even universal.

And as mangoman said what does he get fr being worshipped by us ???

Monk-- he wants us to think and reflect ??? That leads us to questioning his existence.

[bella88]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@philosophy

If I were so omni-everything. I'd just wanna sit back and marvel at how complex humans are and I'd focus a lot of time on other animals and planets and universes too. Not who's having sex with who.

or care why someone is not thinking of me all the time or that they consider someone else as good as me. I cannot understand why shirk/denial/atheism is such a huge sin which deserves eternal torment.

[quote]
Alas, I'm just human and perhaps don't get the joy/purpose behind punishing and being discreet and almost impossible to objectively understand. I'd make it clear for everyone and then see if they follow or not. You give us brains that think and then expect blond faith that's not even universal.

And as mangoman said what does he get fr being worshipped by us ???
[/quote]

ill give the answer which I hear the most from religious folks. He doesn't get anything but WE benefit from worshiping.. Again, Im not satisfied with this answer but thats the answer I have always received.

[quote]
Monk-- he wants us to think and reflect ??? That leads us to questioning his existence.
[/QUOTE]

not just question His existence but the authenticity and questioning of the entire belief system. This is where things get ugly. Questioning to some extent is okay but when it becomes objecting or slightly critical, it becomes a very sensitive issue. Hence, no one really gets anywhere with questioning. this is what I have learned on this forum. You can ask questions but not form opinions as it gets 'offensive' very easily and quickly.

[Captain_Obvious]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@philosophy

Post here! lets discuss and try to synthesize. (no organic chemistry please :( )

It could be questions we have...that are answerable...or just things that don't make sense at all.

Start with:

-Black magic, Evil eye--why is it all hearsay..nothing documented or repeatable or testable...or really even observable? how do people so adamantly believe in it then.

* Disclaimer: intent is not to offend...*

I'll try to answer this one. Magic by definition is the effect of a cause that you don't see, but there's always a cause. Black magic as it's called, is specifically something that involves the use of jinns. Why do people believe in it--well, these things are mentioned in the Qur'an. So any person who claims to be Muslim will at least believe in the existence of these things since the Qur'an is the word of Allah.

Faith notwithstanding, then one of the ways that these unseen problems are diagnosed are through symptoms experienced by the victim. A common scenario consists the victim suffering pain or other physical ailments. When medical investigations are carried out, doctors are either unable to understand what the problem while acknowledging that something is indeed wrong or in some cases can't even find evidence that there is a problem at all, i.e. all tests show that there is nothing abnormal. On the other hand when a spiritual treatment is administered, then a cure is achieved while doctors still don't have a clue on what to do about it.

[Theorist]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@MangoMan

Well, its just a guess. If something pleases him, he must be feeling satisfied with it. Anyway, the word satisfaction isn't important here. What is important is the reason for which he wants to be worshiped.

I doubt birds and animals don't chose. They 'think', they make their choices, they pick up their fights, they make decisions all the time. Sorry but a manual is like a book that teaches me how to use something. But if someone gives me a book and tells me follow the instructions that I have written in this book or I will beat you to death, that's something else.

As humanity grew? Like what? You mean first, we are apes, neanderthals etc? But religions don't believe in evolution. If you mean how societies changed, then I think our societies changed a lot since the tribal societies of 1400 years ago. Why no more updates? The point here that I don't understand is "what is the 'change' that necessitates 'software' updates?"

Protects from what? calamities? accidents? they happen all the time and people get amputated, killed.

I am sorry, I am not trying to offend anyone here. Just trying to understand religion.

Isn't everything so human about our understanding of God? How in the world do we know what he wants? The fact that we seem to think we know what God is is the biggest form of shirk in my opinion.

Who are we to speak on God's behalf. God needs no protectors, spokesperson, and worshippers, that is if God is a conscious being capable of processing human thoughts. Or if he remotely cares about what we think. Lol

[Southie]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@philosophy

so much to say on all of this but,

-how do you measure love and then multiply it by 60

So if we follow the moon to decide when ramadan is and our calendar year...and ramadan starts on different days for people in diff locations...and hence laila tul qadr falls on different days...when exactly is any of this happening? it happens multiple times based on locations?!

Space and time are not fixed. So answer is yes?

[Monk]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@MangoMan

What does he get when he gets what he wants?

No idea.

But we are unique creation and he want us to come close to him.
We come close to him by growing in qualities which he has...
compassion.. mercy..generosity.. That make us able to live in next stage.

[quote]

But the earth is like an invisible speck of dust when compared to the size of the whole universe. I think GOD created the universe. So in the grand scheme of things, human beings can bring the universe to extinction. Their actions do not have a bigger impact on the whole universe than the impact of the actions of birds on the earth.
[/quote]

Again I am not going to pretend I know the answer.
How ever I can mention few things pertaining to it....

He calls him self mercy for worlds.... no world... but worlds

also look at this

"The day will come when this earth will be substituted with a new earth, and also the heavens, and everyone will be brought before GOD, the One, the Supreme"
14:48 quran

If I was to create a habitat for humanity, with such automation, in one go.
I dont know if there could be another setting who could facilitate all this.. other then this universe.

[Monk]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@philosophy

If I were so omni-everything. I’d just wanna sit back and marvel at how complex humans are and I’d focus a lot of time on other animals and planets and universes too. Not who’s having sex with who.

Alas, I’m just human and perhaps don’t get the joy/purpose behind punishing and being discreet and almost impossible to objectively understand. I’d make it clear for everyone and then see if they follow or not. You give us brains that think and then expect blond faith that’s not even universal.

And as mangoman said what does he get fr being worshipped by us ???

Monk-- he wants us to think and reflect ??? That leads us to questioning his existence.

I am glad if I caused you to think

mashallah you are reflecting so please let the learning come.
All the answer of your question is I guess in 2/3 aiyas the story or creation of humanity.

You are right he showed us off… that how he liked his creation.
[RIGHT]

[/RIGHT]
Sahih International

“We have certainly created man in the best of stature;”

95:4 quran

Also he mentioned some this so apparently negligible(at that point) but 1400 when it has some what played out we know.. what his plan was..
He mentioned the human ability of cumulative knowledge.

Sin cause people to stop growing!! If we stop growing we lose purpose of our creation.
All the punishment and rules are to keep us on our tracks… thats all :phai:

[Monk]

Re: Loopholes in Religion

@bella88

not just question His existence but the authenticity and questioning of the entire belief system. This is where things get ugly. Questioning to some extent is okay but when it becomes objecting or slightly critical, it becomes a very sensitive issue. Hence, no one really gets anywhere with questioning. this is what I have learned on this forum. You can ask questions but not form opinions as it gets 'offensive' very easily and quickly.

bella pleas don't fight undercover.
You believe in God but have issue with islam and muslims..

If you were honest you would be answering them. phi and mango.