Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

Do you think TUQ who was demanding involvement of army and SC because he did not trusted present corrupt politicians is so stupid that he would leave everything on these politicians? Plus, do you think present corrupt bunch of politicians are so stupid that they would agree to TUQ demands without any meaningful pressure on them?

I believe that this agreement has backing of Pakistan army too and government was certain that if TUQ with his supports sitting next to Parliament and President house … orders his supporters to take over parliament and president house than military would not have stopped them … rather it is possible that military must have told the government to negotiate with TUQ else military was ready to take over the country, and that is the pressure that forced politicians to agree with TUQ.

Amongst those who was part of negotiation included politicians from all relevant parties, for instance PPP (Amin Fahim, Q Z kaira, Khursheed shah, Farooq Naik), PMLN (Mushahid Hussain), PML (Shujaat-Hussain), MQM (Farooq Sattar, Babar Ghauri), ANP, FATA representative, PKMAP (Mahmood Khan Achakzai) …

So, all these politicians representing their parties became negotiators and witness to the agreement that got signed by Prime Minister of the time … plus armed forces behind (and possibly SC) … plus threat of another protest if government backs down … is I think good enough reason that whatever agreed would get fulfilled.

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

^ in that case, military is being stupid again. It is not like military life when you order and things get done in an instant.

Things like these take time. One little reform after another and you have to struggle for every bit of rights for a long time before you get it. Democracy in India is just starting to mature after several decades of election cycles.

I don't think angels would descend from heavens to participate in the elections. And I don't think most of the 'negotiators' would pass the tests of articles 62 and 63 if applied in the 'spirit'. Personally, for me it should not be up to election commission to decide who is eligible to participate. We need an independent judiciary and a very strong independent anti-corruption body to decide if a person has committed crimes and forward the findings to election commission. Even a country like Philippines which is marred with corruption has realized this and strengthened its audit/anti-corruption department a lot. Communist Party in China, with a very strong hold on politics, economy, and military, has realized corruption is a menace. Electoral reforms would be a great step forward but still we need to keep the reforms for anti-corruption going.

Military should keep themselves to what it is supposed to do.

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

from my twitter time line

“Kaisi anokhi dastaan sab ko suna gaya,
Ek shaks saray mulk ko mamoo bana gaya”

:hehe:

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

Everytime skmething Like this happen.. We know the Results.. Still we expect from these people.. Our fault.. They fool us beacuse We give them chance to do so… :sadaf:

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

We are not talking about what is right and what is wrong but we are talking about what was negotiated and what is the guarantee that what is negotiated is going to get implemented or not.

Anyhow, since you raise few issues that may not be relevant to what has happened (due to long march), still let me put some of my thoughts into that.

Army should not get involved and should keep themselves to what they are supposed to do.

I believe from here you mean that army should not get involved in local politics and administration and should look after the border only.

I think you are wrong because people in the army are all voters. People in the army and their families also gets effected by corruption, nepotism, misuse of power by those in power, misconduct, shortages of opportunities and amenities in country, etc … Obviously, just like any Pakistani, they have to do everything so that Pakistan do not get looted and destroyed by anyone, especially those who hoodwink their way into parliament by hook or crook in the name of democracy, even though most do not even qualify to contest election.

That is different matter than me and you have no means to counter these thugs and army have, so they do with the means they have, for the betterment of the country (as I and most Pakistanis would have done if they had means).

You wrote that it should not be up to EC to decide who is eligible to participate in election (or not), rather it should be judiciary and anti-corruption body.

Well, it is not duty or responsibility of judiciary or anti-corruption body to interfere with election processes, rather, it is the duty and responsibility of EC to decide who should contest election after looking into their eligibility. That is why they are there in the first place. Actually, EC should investigate eligibility of every candidate wanting to contest election and for that they should be able to take help from all government bodies, including anti-corruption body, police, banking authorities, etc, etc. They can also take help from police, army and court to see that election goes through peacefully without disturbance and without any mal-practices or rigging. So, in deciding who can or cannot contest election courts or any other government body do not even come in.

[In Pakistan, EC was too weak and normally partial, care-taker government were never neutral to allow EC take help of government bodies in deciding who is eligible to contest election, and worse was that there was no requirement to check eligibility of the candidate].

You talked about democracy in India, but as far as I am concerned, I believe democracy in India is nothing but Gobar (cow-sh*t) on the wall, ready to get burned as fuel in oven so that some people can use it to cook their food and become rich. It has not helped Indian masses at all, and that is why India is deeply poor, with living standard that can rival most African poor and mismanaged countries. Indian political system stink and only God knows how it would mature. Most likely, the way things are going there, Indian communist or Marxists would gain strength and would turn the politics of India up-side down … causing lot of bloodshed and taking the country from one extreme to another.

You are right that those who did negotiation themselves may not be able to pass Article 62, 63 tests. With dual nationality even TUQ could not pass that test … but that is part of Pakistani constitution and should get implemented. But then, in country of around 180 million people, there must be many millions who would pass the test.

*

If next parliament with members fulfilling all requirements of Article 62, 63 and 218 come to power than they can decide if irrelevant clauses in those articles should stay or go. Actually, many things in those articles are good for the country but some are irrelevant as far as country is concerned, especially those that are personal in nature and does not affect anyone else, that is, it does not affects country and people living in that country, they should go, but since it is there, only next parliament can decide and if appropriate than make them go (by changing the constitution).*

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

Those means given to them are for protecting the country and not imposing their will on people. How would you feel if doctors started poisoning government officials because they think those people are corrupt? Every institution has a job and it should limit itself to that job.

I would agree with you if army had actually tried and put corrupt politicians into jails and recovered looted money. Instead we got NRO. Thanks, but no thanks. Please remain in barracks and protect GHQ at least, if not the common man.

If they have too much pain in the hearts, they should leave army and join either judiciary, police or politics and fight corruption.

About India, as I said, the democracy there is not perfect but only starting to mature. We need to let the process go on for a while.

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

Same way, authority given to politicians is to serve the people and make country better, not to get involved in corruption, loot the country and make the people their miserable slave.

How would you feel that you entrust yourself to a doctor to cure you and he starts giving you injection to kill you? ... Now if nurse stops the doctor giving you killer injection then I am sure you would not say that nurse should not stop the doctor but let the doctor give the injection and let you die, as it is no job of nurse to stop doctor's from giving injection.

Every institution has job and they should limit themselves to that job as long as others are limiting themselves to their jobs too. Pakistani politicians in power do not stick with their job of serving the people, and that effects army too, and that is why these politicians get kicks from people who can kick them (army). .... I only wish that a general comes into power and hang all corrupt politicians, as that is the only way country would get rid from these parasites.

[quote]
I would agree with you if army had actually tried and put corrupt politicians into jails and recovered looted money. Instead we got NRO. Thanks, but no thanks. Please remain in barracks and protect GHQ at least, if not the common man.
[/quote]

Well, army in power also have problem, that is problem of Zombie supporters and vested interest in the country who want to loot and plunder. So, they try their best to come with amicable solution.

As for NRO: I bet you did not read it or read it but ignored it. It has no clause that cases of criminals and guilty should be withdrawn, rather ordinance was that, if cases are running for years and a body of government lawyers think that the case was politically motivated, then government instead of keep pursuing politically motivated cases should withdraw the cases (what government can do anytime anyhow, regardless of NRO).

[quote]
If they have too much pain in the hearts, they should leave army and join either judiciary, police or politics and fight corruption.
[/quote]

What you mean by having too much pain? All Pakistanis should have too much pain if they see that thugs are looting and plundering the country. Actually, only corrupts would have no pain seeing country is getting raped, as it is in their interest because they have their cut.

Unfortunately, due to culture that has developed in Pakistan, Pakistan police and judiciary consists of mostly corrupts and criminals who do not feel pain seeing that country is getting looted and destroyed by politicians in power, because in that loot and destruction, police and judiciary has their piece of cake.

[quote]
About India, as I said, the democracy there is not perfect but only starting to mature. We need to let the process go on for a while.
[/QUOTE]

I do not think democracy in India has matured, rather it stinks. In no democracy a chief minister would get away after getting involved in massacring people (Indian Muslims) in his province (what happened in Gujarat). Modi not only survived, but is hoping to become Prime Minister of India. In democracy, such massacre could not happen, but if it does happens (for whatever reason) than people all over the country would come out on roads protesting against that chief minister and his government. Protest would be so much that chief Minister would have to go home (rather, into jail). Further, such person and his party would lose all credibility in democracy that they could ever win election.

Compare that with Pakistan, where after Quetta Massacre of Shias, chief Minister was not even involved, though his fault was not to visit the victims or do something about Kharjees causing killing, thus people at many places protested and in the end chief minister has to go.

I believe that Pakistani political government stinks, but still in many ways they perform better than Indian sham political governments (possibly because they have someone to scare, and that is armed forces).

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

What is the legal status of this declaration?

The protocols and methods for forming caretaker government and election comission have already been outlined in constitution.

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

:D
waise is it not glass toota?

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

What PTI should have done Shamraz?

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

According to constitution, government should appoint capable and neutral persons in election commission ... but they don't. TUQ agreement is that, all people presently working in EC should go (except Election commissioner) and new EC with capable and neutral (non-party affiliated) person get appointed in EC throughout country.

Constitution says that no one can contest election if they do not qualify Article 62, 63 and 218 ... but implementation is left on EC who consist of mostly politically affiliated people plus they also do not have power or requirement to see if candidates comply the Articles. Actually, present situation is that EC rely on candidates own declaration in nomination papers, and if there is objection from some other person contesting election in same constituency then EC ask complainant to give proves.

New agreement is that EC would have to do investigation on all candidates intending to contest election before allowing them to contest. EC has 30 days to do their investigation and care-taker government along with all government institutions would help EC.

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

It is very easy to be negative about this

but give credit to TUQ for atleast trying, for having the courage to speak out against the corrupt, rotten status quo. Nothing wrong with the gist of his demands plus made his points in a peaceful & civilised manner which is commendable

Kudos to him and all the participants of this march

just the timing (with elections just around the corner) wasn't right imo

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

If army cannot do anything about corrupt politicians, then sorry its useless to take over the government citing corruption. They are as impotent as any other institution.

Do you know the difference between 'has matured' and 'has just started to mature'?

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

Not really. What army do is kick few thugs on their butt and show them how to run the country where corruption is low, development is high, management is good, opportunities for people is better, growth is higher, inflation is lower, nepotism is minimum, stability is wide spread … and so on. After 8 to 11 years they give the country to thugs again hoping that thugs would change, but thugs are like ‘kuttay kee tayrhee dum’ so what army can do? They come back to make that dum straight but again once they let it go it becomes tayrhee. :)

[quote]
Do you know the difference between 'has matured' and 'has just started to mature'?
[/quote]

Yea, I know the difference between ‘has matured’ and ‘started to mature’. I feel you have not read my post carefully where I compared Indian democracy with Pakistani democracy, so if Indian democracy has started to mature then Pakistani democracy has certainly surpassed maturity of Indian democracy :)

Actually, I can assure you that the system that is prevailing in India, democracy there would never mature as it would need bloody revolution for India to mature democratically.

In my opinion, Pakistani democracy, especially after 3 doses from long serving dictators, has matured quite a bit, much more than Indian democracy. If TUQ dose sets in than we would see much better democratic government in Pakistan. Actually TUQ dose is also dose given by dictator (Article 62 and 63).

Fact is that, democracy, freedom of speech, right to protest, right to complain, and freedom of media goes hands in hands, and in Pakistan, democracy, freedom of speech, right to protest, right to complain, as well as freedom of media is much more matured and in much advance stage than in India.

If Pakistan manages to tackle corruption in the country, Kharjee problems effectively, and ‘law and order’ situations then Pakistan would be a very pleasant country to live.

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

^ I have nothing to say except that someone who praises military rule in Pakistan claims the democracy in India is inferior to democracy in Pakistani!

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

Which clause in particular do you think would render IK out from election?

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

Here is Article 62 of the constitution ... a person has to qualify on all clauses of this article:


62.** Qualifications for membership of Majlis-e-Shoora (Parliament).*
A person shall not be qualified to be elected or chosen as a member of Majlis-e-Shoora (Parliament) unless :-
*
*(a) he is a citizen of Pakistan;

[TABLE]

(b)
he is, in the case of the National Assembly, not less than twenty -five years of age and is enrolled as a voter in any electoral roll in-
*
[TABLE]
[TR]
[TD]
(i)*
any part of Pakistan, for election to a general seat or a seat reserved for non-Muslims; and

(ii)
any area in a Province from which he seeks membership for election to a seat reserved for women.]

[/TD]
[/TR]

*(c) he is, in the case of Senate, not less than thirty years of age and is enrolled as a voter in any area in a Province or, as the case may be, the Federal Capital or the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, from where he seeks membership;

  • (d) he is of good character and is not commonly known as one who violates Islamic Injunctions; * * (e) he has adequate knowledge of Islamic teachings and practises obligatory duties prescribed by Islam as well as abstains from major sins ; * (f) he is sagacious, righteous and non-profligate and honest and ameen;* * (g) he has not, after the establishment of Pakistan, worked against the integrity of the country or opposed the Ideology of Pakistan* * Provided that the disqualifications specified in paragraphs (d) and (e) shall not apply to a person who is a non-Muslim, but such a person shall have good moral reputation.*

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

^ in that case even our ‘maulana’ class will be sitting on roads :hehe:

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

I am wondering how much implementation would happen … but if all relevant articles in constitution would get implemented to its full then you can expect to see big shakeup and plenty of fire-work.:slight_smile:

Re: Long March Declaration — A post-mortem

All these clauses have been there for long time, but yes, would these clauses actually be enforced? Very unlikely.