London / UK Riots

[Iyla]

Re: London / UK Riots

@hareem01

OMG

2236:

A police station in Nottingham has been firebombed by a group of 30 to 40 men, according to Nottinghamshire Police. No injuries were reported.

Animals!!

@Naabigh

British taliban - they are

:k:

[Iyla]

Re: London / UK Riots

@ravage

‘This situation has underlined very clearly that law and order is generally maintained by consent, not coercion.’

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/08/crisis-of-ideology-and-political.html

God this is shocking! Shoot them with rubber bullets - anything!!

[ravage]

Re: London / UK Riots

Check out the current best selling items on Amazon … compared to on a normal day. Looks like these guys are planning ahead.

[KKF]

Re: London / UK Riots

God this is shocking! Shoot them with rubber bullets - anything!!

why just rubber bullets?...i would suggest live ammunition will be more befitting for those criminals.

[goddamniamsoawesome]

Re: London / UK Riots

GIDSA I understand the point ur trying to make sure people do fall through the net and make a better life for themselves but is this the minority or the majority you are talking about? You talk about everyone having a fair chance but really they don't. But that is a whole different topic, you think from a functionalist point of view (like many other people in this thread) where I am a Marxist. Also a lot of the community outreach programs u speak of have either been scrapped or funding has been cut towards them.

Regarding the youths; they are immature teenagers who are being stupid and just following a trend I doubt they even care about the guy who got shot or the difference between right and wrong and that's why I believe they need support, guidance and distractions otherwise nothing will come of this. On the other hand, If they were adults I would agree with the majority of the things u have said and definitely question their actions.

CE, I never said everyone has a fair chance. Life is not fair m'love. There's others doing way worse than some of this lot. I'm not that naive and I have enough love for these communities and the hardships they went through. The point I tried and am still trying to make is the fact that life has been unfair to you does not somehow vindicate you of your social responsibility. Although I suppose we live in a world hell bent on anarchism and this is what we are reaping. The results of cultural and social downfall that has been going on for years.

And aye, its not just the 'poor community' members that are taking part in the looting. A lot of them are average middle-class youths and young-adults. Honestly, unless you start from when children in impoverished communities are born, toddlers and literally children then you're not going to be able to give them support, guidance or distraction at the scale that will ever resolve a situation. A lot will learn, a lot will follow you when you want to lead them out. But most will be content to carry on with the lifestyle they are living.

Simply put, there are no underlying issues that other people in the world aren't suffering from. Its as simple as that. Atleast for me it is.

[ravage]

Re: London / UK Riots

really sad: Three killed protecting property during Birmingham riots - BBC News

[Chicken_Biryani]

Re: London / UK Riots

I think one of the very effective ways is to Link benefits with Behaviour … So anyone who gets involved in violence, anti-social behaviour or criminality , their benefits should be revoked for life … and if they are “kids” , then their’s and their parents benefits should be refused to them for life .

Obviously human rights will kick right in and force us never to think along the lines .. but really this tactic will work wonders , government will save the money in benefits … people will remain cautious , parents will start taking the responsibility for their kids and they wont have to have extra space in thier prison centers to deal with AS behaviour

[goddamniamsoawesome]

Re: London - riots

@sweet.i.f

i was just gonna say that NO GIDSA OK. theres quite a few youths who are still deprived despite wanting to make it better for themselves. until i saw this post of yours. and i agree, i don’t understand why the few who carry out actions arbitrarily do so when they get a lot of help. HOWEVER, compared to some of the well off kids who get 3 text books offered from their schools per subject.. these kids have to pay for their text books, or rely on one to get them through the year. uni’s won’t even look at them, why should they? when they have a choice of choosing a grammar school kid to a public secondary school kid? and those uni programmes which are put up to target the less able areas, still don’t have enough places.

i know that you know a lot about gangs and hooligans who do stuff for the sake of it, so i can’t say much on that.. but in regards to education, ofcourse they all get free education, they are entitled to it. it’s compulsory till the age of 16. the chance to get an education is equal, but the chance to get the BEST education? not so much. there is tons and tons of biasedness, favouritism and injustice towards teh minorities. this was a little off topic considering i cannot even begin to jusitfy why the idiots did what they did in the riots, because i don’t. but this point kept creeping up about equality for all in england so eyah.

other than that i’d liek to point out you write so much. hayeeeeeeeee

Life’s a *****. Its not easy on anyone. I still don’t think the way to fight oppression or injustice is to engage in anything unsavoury. You’re only going to end up polarising communities. You think people want to understand and help and learn? Maybe a few. The common man however just wants this lot dealt with. They’ve managed to segregate the opinion of society much more than it might have been. People hate them more than they did. This is the common man for you.

They might not get an education but they’re lucky enough to get one. Sit at home and get JSA? Whoop Whoop! Go to a ****ty school, learn something and come out with some semblance of an education? Ehhhh I don’t know. Once you are given opportunities, no matter how sparse they are… You have an obligation to maximize how you use and implement such assistance. Life isn’t fair but hey, you don’t see people doing this all over the place. Funny thing is, its not just ‘poor communities’ doing this. Its youngsters from varying races, religions and social backgrounds. Yes, some perfectly happy trouble-makers too.

We need tough love, not spoon-feeding and counselling for this lot. They’re not all from the ghetto either! Its just everyday youth. Too bad the government is still following Modus OpeNanny.

[goddamniamsoawesome]

Re: London - riots

Soft on discipline, soft on crime, no more teachers chastising kids, the police can’t clip a troublemaker round the year, blah blah blah, you take your pick. This is not just outsiders saying this, community members, ordinary youngsters who come from impoverished and wealthy neighbourhoods are saying this too. Society hates this scum. You are what you make of yourself. Personal responsibility.

@ravage

Seems to me that you’ve misread the article. It wasnt specifically about black people or minorities, more about classes. While its possible that black people have even lower social mobility, what we know for certain is that UK in general is a country where who your parent is determines more than 50% of people’s future income. In general there is low social mobility. To say that it is the fault of any given community that they havent lifted themselves up from the ghettos is unreasonable in an economic context where there is generally low social mobility.

I wasn’t referring to specifically black communities either. But judging by the news reports and information from the ground, it is mostly black youth that’s out on the street and that’s what may have shown through in my post. Your parents might determine more than 50% of your future income but in a lot of places you can’t even survive without your parents support, let alone live a life that has any semblance of comfort. It is the individuals within that community that can or cannot affect change. Its as simple as the day. What would you have the government do? Screw the government. How do you see a way out? Try understanding these yobs after they’ve stomped your face on the curb.

@ravage

I never meant to say I think consumerism is a good thing. Far from it, it is one of the worst diseases of modernity, especially because if you are even slightly a part of popular culture, you are infected with it atleast a little bit. My only point is that to single out ghetto culture for crudely glamorizing consumerism and their ways of accessing it is unfair. The mainstream society glamorizes consumerism constantly. Only the means of accessing it, really accessing it in the way advertised, are much more limited for people at the margins.

This person who was part of the initial protests says it better than me:

If the rioting was a surprise, people weren't looking | Stafford Scott | The Guardian

The mainstream is as rubbish as ghetto culture. But we’re talking about youngsters specifically influenced by ghetto culture. When I see a bunch of Lady Gaga lookalikes rioting and looting, I’ll think about that argument. Right now, let’s keep it to what we’re seeing.

@ravage

I do know people who live in council estates, because I have to collect data from them. Almost all the people who volunteer for our studies are low-income people, and so I have a little bit of access. While I dont pretend to know their world what I do know is this: its not a cushy life [this is with regards just to quality of life].

Well why don’t you talk to them? And see what their take on this whole issue is?

@ravage

That a minority of people manage to escape their backgrounds is never in dispute. I dont attribute it just to luck though that plays its part. Personal choices play a role. Aptitude plays a role. Intelligence plays a role. Then again, it could be argued that even those things are a part of your genetic lottery. Should stupid people be miserable in your worldview? As the role of human beings shrinks in the economy with more of it being automated, and more of it being high skilled jobs, do you see it natural and appropriate that there be a corresponding contraction in access to resources towards those who were a) unlucky in birth and b) unlucky in not being gifted? And that being the case, do you not see the danger in a society where the same resources are constantly glamorized, and constantly seen as justly denied to a growing number of people?

What would you do? ‘Hey your IQ isn’t as high as me, you can have a few grand to get you by’. I mean yeah, I’m grossly exaggerating and its a poor example but seriously this is what I gather from that part of your post. I don’t care what society glamorizes or not. As long as we as individuals don’t step on any toes then we should be able to do whatever the hell we want. The moment we do however invade someone’s personal space, we need to be put in place. No matter how ****ty my life was, how oppressed I was and how unfair my upbringing was… I do not have the right to harm another.

@ravage

Lets see what the independent commission says first. The police already made the claim that they were shot at by the guy only for the commission to say theres no evidence of that. What if he had already surrendered, should he have been shot then? Theres some pretty bad figures [for this country] for the police when it comes to black people, for instance this. Im not ready just yet to say that they acted correctly.

If he had already surrendered then that’s another case but if he did not and he did b*****sh a gun in the presence of firearms police that were following him purely because he was involved with a Yardie faction and therefore guns and drugs then yes, he deserved every hollow-point he got in his chest - Just one, I know.

[goddamniamsoawesome]

Re: London / UK Riots

I seem to be breaking me own self imposed rule of reading more than 4 lines per post a lot today.

Ravi and Godzilla, pack it in! Just watch the news like rest of us and make succinct observations.

You read more than 4 lines! Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

[ravage]

Re: London / UK Riots

Day too late GIDSA, and I get the feeling we were taking up too much of the oxygen in the room. Since you’ve gone through the trouble of responding, I’ll bulletpoint my final replies and let you have the last word, Bill O Reilly style. The numbers are in order of the quoted text.

1. Its all very well to say individuals should rise up, but statistically thats not an answer thats relevant to most of the people at the margins, who like the rest of the country are not likely to change their birth class. What can the government do? Learn from governments with higher social mobility [about 4 times higher social mobility in Denmark and Finland]. What would I do? Accept that the problem is more complex and requires better answers than lets kick those yobs around.

2. The mainstream is relevant because this selective condemnation of ghetto materialism is hypocritical from a culture where the mainstream IS materialism and consumerism. Not to mention the fact that the first person to talk about culture in this case would be the BNP.

3. Thats a model of life that does not work in unequal contexts. Lets remember that we all now feel that caste systems where people were born into their vocation and social status are unjust and arbitrary. Scratch the surface of modern democracy and capitalism and you have a world where for most people of these areas the life of the privileged that they can see and enable, and the vocations available to them, is denied to them by virtue of attributes they did not choose, beginning from birth and race but also including things like intelligence and aptitude and parenting and birth order and all the things that go into determining whether or not you are the type of person that overcomes social impediments and succeeds in the modern world.

Let me also say that in this thread I have been presenting one aspect of a complex set of motivations at play here. From opportunism to genuine communal rage to nihilism. This article presents a much wide ranging, more complete, more expert opinion on the psychology of it all than anything said on this thread here:

The UK riots: the psychology of looting | Zoe Williams

[hareem01]

Re: London / UK Riots

@ravage

really sad: Three killed protecting property during Birmingham riots - BBC News

He just lost his son and look he’s talking with so much patience. A truly brave muslim indeed. May Allah grant his son high ranks in jannah. I’m truly saddened and all my prayers for the family of the deceased, the three men who defended their community and died for this noble cause are shuhda inshallah.

[Pakistan_Zindabad_2]

Re: London / UK Riots

Really sad news, may Allah (swt) protect everyone.

I hope it is not beginning of an European Spring.

[goddamniamsoawesome]

Re: London / UK Riots

@ravage

Day too late GIDSA, and I get the feeling we were taking up too much of the oxygen in the room. Since you’ve gone through the trouble of responding, I’ll bulletpoint my final replies and let you have the last word, Bill O Reilly style. The numbers are in order of the quoted text.

1. Its all very well to say individuals should rise up, but statistically thats not an answer thats relevant to most of the people at the margins, who like the rest of the country are not likely to change their birth class. What can the government do? Learn from governments with higher social mobility [about 4 times higher social mobility in Denmark and Finland]. What would I do? Accept that the problem is more complex and requires better answers than lets kick those yobs around.

2. The mainstream is relevant because this selective condemnation of ghetto materialism is hypocritical from a culture where the mainstream IS materialism and consumerism. Not to mention the fact that the first person to talk about culture in this case would be the BNP.

3. Thats a model of life that does not work in unequal contexts. Lets remember that we all now feel that caste systems where people were born into their vocation and social status are unjust and arbitrary. Scratch the surface of modern democracy and capitalism and you have a world where for most people of these areas the life of the privileged that they can see and enable, and the vocations available to them, is denied to them by virtue of attributes they did not choose, beginning from birth and race but also including things like intelligence and aptitude and parenting and birth order and all the things that go into determining whether or not you are the type of person that overcomes social impediments and succeeds in the modern world.

Let me also say that in this thread I have been presenting one aspect of a complex set of motivations at play here. From opportunism to genuine communal rage to nihilism. This article presents a much wide ranging, more complete, more expert opinion on the psychology of it all than anything said on this thread here:

The UK riots: the psychology of looting | Zoe Williams | The Guardian

I can’t always be logged onto GS dude!

Yay, I have the last word! Let me try this number thing…

1. Learn from places like Denmark and Finland? Look at the immigrant situations in those countries. SS.
2. You can be as mainstream as you want. Too bad you can’t help step on other people’s toes.
3. Life isn’t fair. You make what you can of it. And if all you can make is trouble they God/Whatever you believe in help you!

You can use as many words as you like. Unless you’re part of such community and culture and if you are naive enough to think a soft hand isn’t responsible then we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

YES I got the last word!

[Iyla]

Re: London / UK Riots

why just rubber bullets?...i would suggest live ammunition will be more befitting for those criminals.

True true!

[Iyla]

Re: London / UK Riots

@ravage

Check out the current best selling items on Amazon … compared to on a normal day. Looks like these guys are planning ahead.

Well the Police aen’t helping so what other choice to people have to defend themselves!

[ravage]

Re: London / UK Riots

assuming those are for defence!

[Muzna]

Re: London / UK Riots

^ yeah.....that's a big assumption right now.

[hareem01]

Re: London / UK Riots

Actually I was thinking of getting a baseball bat too for defence purposes.

[ravage]

Re: London / UK Riots

cricket i'd have thought. baseball feels too american.